Heat pump water heaters experience?

[Joes Place]

I'm getting close to replacing a gas tanked heater.

Options are, new standard venting gas heater, side-vent high efficiency w/ blower system (have heard mediocre reliability on these) or heat pump electric (Rheem looks like the best ones here)

Anyone have any good/bad experiences w/ the heat pump systems? They look like they use much less energy than any gas systems ($100/yr electric costs vs. $250-300 for gas systems). Current heater is 50 gallons, and I'm seeing some people recommend to go a little larger with the heat pump systems, or run them at higher temps so you have a larger peak draw ability (Rheem 50 gallon has a 67 gallon 'initial draw' rating, which I believe means after 67 gallons, you start getting lukewarm water).

Not really interested in tankless systems, as unless they are running off a similar heat-pump like setup, they are no more efficient than many tanked systems; I already have point-of-use tank at my kitchen sink for instant hot water - that's a long run from the main heater, so it takes upwards of 1 minute to get hot water there and the mini-tank is a game-changer for that.

Rheem makes a couple model-series of the heat pump ones, and the higher end looks like it just has a "leak detect" feature but otherwise identical.
I need to measure out my space/height requirements and see if I have any limits there; eliminating the roof-vent for the current gas heater clears out space for an extra solar panel, once the tree shading that area dies off (<5 yrs probably)

 

[billanole]

We replaced an aged electric tank heater with a GE GeoSpring some years back. It is a heat pump with several modes, including heat pump only, electric tubes only for quick recovery, hybrid utilizing both, and vacay to keep it at 50 degrees to avoid freezing if you are away. I think it is 70 gallon which was good with two kids home at that time. We have never run out of hot water. A great benefit is that we don’t have to run a dehumidifier in the basement anymore as it has a condensate outlet.
Our overall power bill dropped 25% immediately and it has long since paid for itself, as the old beast it replaced was an energy hog.
I just scanned the GE site and did not see them listed. Possibly discontinued. Here are FAQs from the GE site.

GE Appliances GeoSpring™ Heat Pump Water Heater Frequently Asked Questions

www.geappliances.com

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Back to the geo - my guy installed 2 50 gallon water heaters and one just acts as a storage tanks for the system to help minimize the on off cycle I guess...

 

[billanole]

I'm getting close to replacing a gas tanked heater.

Options are, new standard venting gas heater, side-vent high efficiency w/ blower system (have heard mediocre reliability on these) or heat pump electric (Rheem looks like the best ones here)

Anyone have any good/bad experiences w/ the heat pump systems? They look like they use much less energy than any gas systems ($100/yr electric costs vs. $250-300 for gas systems). Current heater is 50 gallons, and I'm seeing some people recommend to go a little larger with the heat pump systems, or run them at higher temps so you have a larger peak draw ability (Rheem 50 gallon has a 67 gallon 'initial draw' rating, which I believe means after 67 gallons, you start getting lukewarm water).

Not really interested in tankless systems, as unless they are running off a similar heat-pump like setup, they are no more efficient than many tanked systems; I already have point-of-use tank at my kitchen sink for instant hot water - that's a long run from the main heater, so it takes upwards of 1 minute to get hot water there and the mini-tank is a game-changer for that.

Rheem makes a couple model-series of the heat pump ones, and the higher end looks like it just has a "leak detect" feature but otherwise identical.
I need to measure out my space/height requirements and see if I have any limits there; eliminating the roof-vent for the current gas heater clears out space for an extra solar panel, once the tree shading that area dies off (<5 yrs probably)

Looked at the Zoro Rheem model and noise was a common complaint in reviews.

 

[Gimmered]

I'm getting close to replacing a gas tanked heater.

Options are, new standard venting gas heater, side-vent high efficiency w/ blower system (have heard mediocre reliability on these) or heat pump electric (Rheem looks like the best ones here)

Anyone have any good/bad experiences w/ the heat pump systems? They look like they use much less energy than any gas systems ($100/yr electric costs vs. $250-300 for gas systems). Current heater is 50 gallons, and I'm seeing some people recommend to go a little larger with the heat pump systems, or run them at higher temps so you have a larger peak draw ability (Rheem 50 gallon has a 67 gallon 'initial draw' rating, which I believe means after 67 gallons, you start getting lukewarm water).

Not really interested in tankless systems, as unless they are running off a similar heat-pump like setup, they are no more efficient than many tanked systems; I already have point-of-use tank at my kitchen sink for instant hot water - that's a long run from the main heater, so it takes upwards of 1 minute to get hot water there and the mini-tank is a game-changer for that.

Rheem makes a couple model-series of the heat pump ones, and the higher end looks like it just has a "leak detect" feature but otherwise identical.
I need to measure out my space/height requirements and see if I have any limits there; eliminating the roof-vent for the current gas heater clears out space for an extra solar panel, once the tree shading that area dies off (<5 yrs probably)

I think you're missing the boat on tankless. Look at the Rinnai Sensei Supers. The GPM keep going up on these as the BTU keep falling because of the efficiencies keep getting better. The also qualify for the 30% federal tax credit because they're above 95% efficient. Possibly will have other rebates also.


65 Gallon Rheem heat pump Energy guide shows $171. The Rinnai RX130in is $141.

 

[Joes Place]

I think you're missing the boat on tankless. Look at the Rinnai Sensei Supers. The GPM keep going up on these as the BTU keep falling because of the efficiencies keep getting better. The also qualify for the 30% federal tax credit because they're above 95% efficient. Possibly will have other rebates also.


65 Gallon Rheem heat pump Energy guide shows $171. The Rinnai RX130in is $141.

I'm seeing the Rinnai tankless at $424/yr energy costs (really depends on how much water you heat up).

Problem w/ tankless, is you are directly converting propane/natural gas heat to water heat.
The value in tanked heat pump systems, is that the heat pump is simply "moving" heat around, vs having to generate 100% of the energy to heat the water. If you use a tankless system and use very little hot water, it's cheap. If you have 4-5 people taking showers, you're looking at 4x-5x the energy costs.

Tankless heaters offer "unlimited" hot water, which for some purposes is a great option; energy efficiency for most typical home use does not compete w/ heat-pump systems, from what I see.

This link lists energy guide costs at $280/yr, vs around $100/yr for a tanked heat pump system

Loading…

media.rinnai.us

 

[Gimmered]

I'm seeing the Rinnai tankless at $424/yr energy costs (really depends on how much water you heat up).

Problem w/ tankless, is you are directly converting propane/natural gas heat to water heat.
The value in tanked heat pump systems, is that the heat pump is simply "moving" heat around, vs having to generate 100% of the energy to heat the water. If you use a tankless system and use very little hot water, it's cheap. If you have 4-5 people taking showers, you're looking at 4x-5x the energy costs.

Tankless heaters offer "unlimited" hot water, which for some purposes is a great option; energy efficiency for most typical home use does not compete w/ heat-pump systems, from what I see.

This link lists energy guide costs at $280/yr, vs around $100/yr for a tanked heat pump system

Loading…

media.rinnai.us

Larger units on propane maybe. Even the bigger RX systems are just over $200 on Natural gas. The 199,999 11.1 GPM is listed at $212 on natural gas. $414 on Propane.

My basement is already cold. Pumping cold air into it during the summer months made no sense to me. Pumping cold air to it in the Winter time means more energy to warm the house. That and the fact that a quick recovery meant electric heat was the deal breaker when I looked at it.

I have a 160,000 BTU tankless that's rated at 7.5 GPM and it has always been more than sufficient. A 130,000 BTU 7.1 GPM would be just as good. The new RF series are 98% UEF. Price wise, after the 30% Federal tax credit, and a $300 rebate from Black hills Energy, I could buy a new tankless for just under $500. About $900 for the 65 gallon heat pump after rebates.

 

[Joes Place]

Larger units on propane maybe. Even the bigger RX systems are just over $200 on Natural gas.

My basement is already cold. Pumping clod air into it during the summer months made no sense to me. Pumping cold air to it in the Winter time means more energy to warm the house. That and the fact that a quick recovery meant electric heat was the deal breaker when I looked at it.

I have a 160,000 BTU tankless that's rated at 7.5 GPM and it has always been more than sufficient. A 130,000 BTU 7.1 GPM would be just as good. The new RF series are 98% UEF. Price wise, after the 30% Federal tax credit, and a $300 rebate from Black hills Energy, I could buy a new tankless for just under $500. About $900 for the 65 gallon heat pump after rebates.

They can be "95%" or "98%" efficient. The point is that directly heating the water with electricity or natural gas costs far more than a heat pump system. And you can vent the heat pump outdoors, to avoid cooling your basement in the winter.

 

[Gimmered]

They can be "95%" or "98%" efficient. The point is that directly heating the water with electricity or natural gas costs far more than a heat pump system. And you can vent the heat pump outdoors, to avoid cooling your basement in the winter.

You are also paying to reheat water that wasn't used. both units are very efficient. Normal use the heat pump would work very well for me now. When the kids were all home, the recovery time was too slow, so it would have used the electric elements.

 

[Joes Place]

You are also paying to reheat water that wasn't used.

You're paying to keep it at temperature, which does require energy, but just a lot less than heating it up.

The true advantage to tankless systems is "unlimited" hot water (within the gph specs). Tanked systems - even gas ones - can be overwhelmed by high use you'd see in hotels, etc, because they are not designed to deliver substantially more water than the tank size in a short timeframe.

And heat pump systems (unless you get electrical backup/direct heating options) will not heat the water as quickly, and will not recover as quickly as a regular gas or electric system. So what I see people do is "oversize" the tank size to act as a buffer for any high-use days (e.g. holiday guests). Which is why I'd probably go to a larger tank size than the 50 gal I currently have.

Most interested here in reliability experiences, and how well they do for those heavy-use weeks.

Found a good site that compares annual costs per each type of system, that you can fill in efficiency and energy costs to get good head-to-head comparisons:

Residential Water Heater Cost Calculator | Efficiency Maine

Compare the annual cost of different water heating systems with our cost comparison tool. Discover how much you could save with an upgrade.

www.efficiencymaine.com

 

[Joes Place]

Larger units on propane maybe. Even the bigger RX systems are just over $200 on Natural gas. The 199,999 11.1 GPM is listed at $212 on natural gas. $414 on Propane.

My basement is already cold. Pumping cold air into it during the summer months made no sense to me. Pumping cold air to it in the Winter time means more energy to warm the house. That and the fact that a quick recovery meant electric heat was the deal breaker when I looked at it.

I have a 160,000 BTU tankless that's rated at 7.5 GPM and it has always been more than sufficient. A 130,000 BTU 7.1 GPM would be just as good. The new RF series are 98% UEF. Price wise, after the 30% Federal tax credit, and a $300 rebate from Black hills Energy, I could buy a new tankless for just under $500. About $900 for the 65 gallon heat pump after rebates.

So, you have a Rinnai tankless unit?

How's that experience been? I think those are supposed to last longer than tanked systems - I see 15 yr warranty on heat exchanger for some of those, but only 5 yr on the "whole unit".... Is the 15 yr warranty really the bottom line here, and they'll last ~50% longer than a tanked system?

 

[Gimmered]

So, you have a Rinnai tankless unit?

How's that experience been? I think those are supposed to last longer than tanked systems - I see 15 yr warranty on heat exchanger for some of those, but only 5 yr on the "whole unit".... Is the 15 yr warranty really the bottom line here, and they'll last ~50% longer than a tanked system?

For me they have been great. I panic ordered a new one last winter, my 12 year old unit started acting up when it was 8 below. I ordered a newer model that would bolt right up where my old one was. Turned out I just needed to clean the flame rod on my old one. I installed the new one and boxed the old one up and have it stored. I may sell it or keep it as a spare. But I would really expect to get 20 years out of one.

My mistake was I didn't do my normal research, I found I could have bought a much better unit for less money with rebates. I was looking at prices for gas tank units and I can get a tankless cheaper than a standard gas tank type.

People tend to oversize their tankless because bigger is better. We could do 2 showers with our 7.5 gallon but never do.

When I was looking at heat pump units years ago, they were all electric backup for quick recovery if you set them. I know heat pumps are often 400% efficiency. But they take much longer to recover.

 

[Joes Place]

When I was looking at heat pump units years ago, they were all electric backup for quick recovery if you set them. I know heat pumps are often 400% efficiency. But they take much longer to recover.

Yep

People 'adjust' by oversizing them, compared to regular gas tanked heaters, when they don't go w/ the more costly (to buy, and run) electric backup. Perfectly fine way to adjust, but still will have its limits if you have a bunch of guests all taking AM showers.

As you've noted - you might be limited w/ how many people can draw hot water at once w/ tankless, but so long as you don't go over that 'limit', you cannot run out of hot water, unless the power goes out (presume even the gas ones won't operate w/o a battery backup or something if the power goes out - really the only advantage of a tanked system in that you'll still have the hot water in the tank w/o any electrical power)

I'd assume someone sells basic battery backups for gas tankless, as they should really only draw control-voltage power levels to operate flow valves, monitor outlet temperature, etc. I'd have to dig into that.

 

[Gimmered]

Yep

People 'adjust' by oversizing them, compared to regular gas tanked heaters, when they don't go w/ the more costly (to buy, and run) electric backup. Perfectly fine way to adjust, but still will have its limits if you have a bunch of guests all taking AM showers.

As you've noted - you might be limited w/ how many people can draw hot water at once w/ tankless, but so long as you don't go over that 'limit', you cannot run out of hot water, unless the power goes out (presume even the gas ones won't operate w/o a battery backup or something if the power goes out - really the only advantage of a tanked system in that you'll still have the hot water in the tank w/o any electrical power)

I'd assume someone sells basic battery backups for gas tankless, as they should really only draw control-voltage power levels to operate flow valves, monitor outlet temperature, etc. I'd have to dig into that.

It would be easy to do a UPS on the tankless if you felt the need. I really never lose power so I've never worried about it. I added a Watts recirculation pump to mine that's plugged into a smart plug. A motion detector kicks the pump on when I walk into the bathroom. if I wait about 60 seconds, I have hot water to the faucet.

 

[Joes Place]

It would be easy to do a UPS on the tankless if you felt the need. I really never lose power so I've never worried about it. I added a Watts recirculation pump to mine that's plugged into a smart plug. A motion detector kicks the pump on when I walk into the bathroom. if I wait about 60 seconds, I have hot water to the faucet.

Rinnai has recommended UPS systems for power outages; about $500 and also have a flow sensor that allows it to stay in standby and only turns on electronics when it senses draw needs. A week or more of power to operate the gas models with those