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"Here's What Kim Davis Doesn't Understand About Faith..."

Joes Place

HB King
Aug 28, 2003
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Words from a Mennonite who has wrestled with the issues of 'faith' and 'conscientious objection' his entire life.....

"Kim Davis has a fundamentally shallow understanding of what it means to be a conscientious objector."

If your faith is clashing with your job in these ways, it’s time for a new line of work.
It’s a pretty simple concept — and one that reveals the true nature of authentically grappling with holding religious beliefs that run counter to the way civil society is organized. As one Quaker
explained in a patient blog post criticizing Hobby Lobby’s owners for taking their religious liberty fight all the way to the Supreme Court: “I know firsthand that it can be hard to pass up opportunities that violate your conscience. But that is the price you pay for conscientious objection. If you’re not willing to pay that price, you’re not a Conscientious Objector. Full stop.”
Though right-wing Christians are often quick to call out these sacrifices as proof they’re being discriminated against, this type of compromise from religious folks is routine. When you’re a member of a larger secular society that’s built on laws, taxes, and policies you don’t agree with, you
won’t get everything you want all of the time. Members of the historic peace churches have a lot of experience with this. We may have secured the religious exemptions that allow us to avoid participating in U.S. military activity, but our objections to the political system aren’t limited to the threat of being drafted. Mennonites and Quakers don’t particularly like the fact that they continue to indirectly support violence, war, and oppression through their tax dollars, as well as through any other day-to-day activities that help prop up the government.
However, aside from the occasional stand against less than a dollar in telephone taxes, most of us begrudgingly accept this reality. Even the Amish, who have peeled off from modern society in nearly every way specifically to better adhere to their faith,
still pay earned income taxes — they don’t pay into Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, but only because they waive the benefits.
Living out your faith doesn’t mean always getting your way without consequence. And, subsequently, it isn’t always easy or comfortable. For instance, some pacifists who absolutely can’t reconcile paying federal taxes with their deeply held beliefs do engage in tax resistance, but at great personal cost to themselves: They
intentionally make so little money each year that they don’t owe the IRS anything.
On the other hand, Kim Davis — along with the LGBT opponents who are lining up to support her as a
civil rights hero — has a fundamentally shallow understanding of what it means to be a conscientious objector, and one that’s frankly a bit disrespectful to the people of faith who take these issues quite seriously.
Now, those of us who strongly believe in the right to religious objections need to know: Kim Davis, if you simply can’t abide participating in a modern society that allows same-sex couples to get married, it’s time to get serious. What are you willing to give up in return?

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/09/11/3700174/religious-accommodation-work/
 
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Mennonites get it.
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This one is pretty easy for me - if people of faith want the government to stay out of their faith then they need to keep their faith out of government. You can do a job without agreeing with the choices of people you are doing it for.
 
By and large, I have always thought there is no place for religion in business and no place for business in religion. One of the evils of the creeping corporatism this society suffers, is that the two are being intermingled constantly.
Freedom of religion is truly a double edged sword. EVERYONE needs to understand this.
 
Can't recall the news/editorial program I was listening to, but while driving yesterday AM, NPR had some interesting clips of Bobby Jindal being quoted on 'religion and government'.

During all the Muslim 'Sharia Law' rhetoric a while ago, he was stating how we had to keep religion out of government; now, with the Kim Davis mess, he was all about how religious people had to be able to exercise their rights vs. the government.

Their ending quote was something like: 'Bobby Jindal appears to have a different take on Separation of Church and State as it applies to Fundamentalist Muslims versus Fundamentalist Protestants....'
 
By and large, I have always thought there is no place for religion in business and no place for business in religion. One of the evils of the creeping corporatism this society suffers, is that the two are being intermingled constantly.
Freedom of religion is truly a double edged sword. EVERYONE needs to understand this.
Big business will play the religion card if it's profitable. Small businesses sometimes do so even when it isn't. At least that's the impression I have.

But here's the thing.... When we say "play the religion card" in this context, what we really mean is play the bigotry card. It means we are using religion to justify discrimination against people we don't like to the extent that we can find some scripture that seems to tell us it's OK to discriminate.

If we were really talking about religion and business, we could find some interesting things to talk about. Some religions say we should be stewards of creation. Some say we should help the needy. Some say there should be periodic forgiveness of debt. Some say a worker owes his employer an honest day's work. Some require honesty in transactions. Some permit deception. Some allow usury, some don't. And so on. Those are some pretty interesting differences.
 
Can't recall the news/editorial program I was listening to, but while driving yesterday AM, NPR had some interesting clips of Bobby Jindal being quoted on 'religion and government'.

During all the Muslim 'Sharia Law' rhetoric a while ago, he was stating how we had to keep religion out of government; now, with the Kim Davis mess, he was all about how religious people had to be able to exercise their rights vs. the government.

Their ending quote was something like: 'Bobby Jindal appears to have a different take on Separation of Church and State as it applies to Fundamentalist Muslims versus Fundamentalist Protestants....'

While Jindal, Huckabee, and Cruz are getting a lot of negative publicity on the Kim Davis episode, there is very little attention paid to Trump and Fiorina who have stated publically that Davis needs to do her job or be removed.
 
By and large, I have always thought there is no place for religion in business and no place for business in religion. One of the evils of the creeping corporatism this society suffers, is that the two are being intermingled constantly.
Freedom of religion is truly a double edged sword. EVERYONE needs to understand this.
I do not agree with Kim on her stance. I also think she should resign but having said that a business person can no more separate his religion from his business than he can separate his leg from his body. His religion is an integral part of who he is
 
While Jindal, Huckabee, and Cruz are getting a lot of negative publicity on the Kim Davis episode, there is very little attention paid to Trump and Fiorina who have stated publically that Davis needs to do her job or be removed.
Being reasonable doesn't sell advertising space. It's why we get more upset about nonsense like this than, say, accelerating extinctions, including mass die-offs in the oceanic food chain.
 
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I do not agree with Kim on her stance. I also think she should resign but having said that a business person can no more separate his religion from his business than he can separate his leg from his body. His religion is an integral part of who he is
THat may be....but he should never allow his personal beliefs to interfere with the performance of his chosen duties.
 
I do not agree with Kim on her stance. I also think she should resign but having said that a business person can no more separate his religion from his business than he can separate his leg from his body. His religion is an integral part of who he is
I used to work with a couple of religious people who believed that gays were going to hell. It didn't keep them from doing business with our gay customers or from treating them or a gay coworker decently.

Where does the bible say that you should refuse to do your job with regard to gays?
 
  • Kim Davis = Muslim Extremist

No, but providing legal accommodation for her religious beliefs would provide a legal precedent to make similar accommodations to Muslim extremists, or extremists of any other religious group...
 
she actually has a legal obligation to not issue the license to people of the same sex, according to chuck Baldwin, who agrees with me
 
I'm so f*n' tired of hearing about Kim f*n' Davis. They only added to the circus by jailing her. They should have just fired her and been done with her. Now she views herself as some kind of martyr for Christianity; which is insane because she's not. She's just someone who refuses to do her job, and should be fired.

When are the leftists going to learn? The woman doesn't deserve the recognition she is getting. The extreme liberals are causing all of this, by protesting and threatening Davis. They do the same thing over and over again expecting different outcomes. Turn the other cheek for once.

The couple should have just went to another county to get a marriage license without making a big deal. The woman wasn't worth their time.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Maybe this is happening other places and the couples just decide to go elsewhere. If this is true, then good for them. These types of people don't deserve the air time, especially Kim Davis who's on her 4th marriage. Remove the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from another's.
 
I'm so f*n' tired of hearing about Kim f*n' Davis. They only added to the circus by jailing her. They should have just fired her and been done with her. Now she views herself as some kind of martyr for Christianity; which is insane because she's not. She's just someone who refuses to do her job, and should be fired.

Here's where you went off the rails. She likely can't be fired. She was elected to her position. Kentucky may allow the governor or some other official to formally remove her from office but barring that she would have to be impeached or recalled near as I can tell. Even if the governor has the power, it's unlikely she would be removed from office absent some sanction of the move by the legislature or the voters...the politics would prohibit it.
 
So you listen to someone else who makes a lot of money being a self-righteous asshole? Big deal.
yes, here is chuck Baldwin explaining it. basically, Clinton signed doma. the supreme court ruling negated doma. so it goes back TO THE STATES. there is no fed law to replace doma. congress makes the laws. so the state law of Kentucky states one man and one woman. she is obligated to follow her state law. jump to 2:16:00



 
I used to work with a couple of religious people who believed that gays were going to hell. It didn't keep them from doing business with our gay customers or from treating them or a gay coworker decently.

Where does the bible say that you should refuse to do your job with regard to gays?
I did say I do not agree with her stance so I certainly am not saying people of faith should not do business with gays. I did say if her religious beliefs stop her from doing her job she should resign. I was responding to Joe who said people should separate their faith from their job. As I said that's not possible because our faith is an ingrained part of who we are.
 
I used to work with a couple of religious people who believed that gays were going to hell. It didn't keep them from doing business with our gay customers or from treating them or a gay coworker decently.

Where does the bible say that you should refuse to do your job with regard to gays?
where in the bible does it say the supreme court can change your job description mid-stream then jail you if you do not follow God's laws? actually, biblical prophecy predicts this
 
Here's where you went off the rails. She likely can't be fired. She was elected to her position. Kentucky may allow the governor or some other official to formally remove her from office but barring that she would have to be impeached or recalled near as I can tell. Even if the governor has the power, it's unlikely she would be removed from office absent some sanction of the move by the legislature or the voters...the politics would prohibit it.

Didn't realize she couldn't just be removed from the position. Regardless, Kentucky legislators have an obligation to uphold the law of the land whether they agree with the woman or not. This woman should be impeached whether it be a popular decision or not.

Politics would prohibit it? Why? Because Kentucky is a conservative state? Sorry, but most conservatives already agree that the woman should be removed from office. Most conservatives are in agreement that this woman still needs to do her job.
 
It may be possible to "fire" her if she continues to defy the court order...I don't know KY law. But if the governor has that power, he's likely not going to use it unless there are no other alternatives. Even then I would suspect he'll be looking for political cover for the move - maybe a resolution form the legislature. As long as she goes back to work and lets the deputies handle marriage licenses without interference, she'll be fine. I think she may be in too deep to allow that, though.
 
I'm so f*n' tired of hearing about Kim f*n' Davis. They only added to the circus by jailing her. They should have just fired her and been done with her. Now she views herself as some kind of martyr for Christianity; which is insane because she's not. She's just someone who refuses to do her job, and should be fired.

When are the leftists going to learn? The woman doesn't deserve the recognition she is getting. The extreme liberals are causing all of this, by protesting and threatening Davis. They do the same thing over and over again expecting different outcomes. Turn the other cheek for once.

The couple should have just went to another county to get a marriage license without making a big deal. The woman wasn't worth their time.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Maybe this is happening other places and the couples just decide to go elsewhere. If this is true, then good for them. These types of people don't deserve the air time, especially Kim Davis who's on her 4th marriage. Remove the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from another's.
You seem to be pointing your fingers in the wrong direction, but I like that you recognize the need to point fingers.
 
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where in the bible does it say the supreme court can change your job description mid-stream then jail you if you do not follow God's laws? actually, biblical prophecy predicts this
In another thread I tried explaining how someone could be highly intelligent and still hold seemingly irrational thoughts, possibly even 'crazy' beliefs.

Then, there are a number of people like you who possess irrational/crazy thoughts and beliefs, and are far below what one would consider intelligent.
 
Maybe Hillary's campaign with the payouts for posts which ridicule oit then because there was a rash of it in 2008
 
While Jindal, Huckabee, and Cruz are getting a lot of negative publicity on the Kim Davis episode, there is very little attention paid to Trump and Fiorina who have stated publically that Davis needs to do her job or be removed.

That's because those opinions aren't inflammatory.
 
Thanks for sharing OP. This puts a new spin on something I was already disgusted by.

She is no hero. She's a coward. If she was so upset at a decision made by a government she swore an oath to she should have resigned and worked to rally public opinion.
 
Where does hillary get her money?Drug dealing with colombians in mena arkansas. So colombian drug lords pay you guys to follow me around on hrot?
 
where in the bible does it say the supreme court can change your job description mid-stream then jail you if you do not follow God's laws? actually, biblical prophecy predicts this
I'd. Take man's punishment over gods punishment all day long
How much does obama pay you per post? I need a commission on that
Maybe Hillary's campaign with the payouts for posts which ridicule oit then because there was a rash of it in 2008
Where does hillary get her money?Drug dealing with colombians in mena arkansas. So colombian drug lords pay you guys to follow me around on hrot?

24b78a0dc79183a22e4d287a777acc9a.jpg
 
she actually has a legal obligation to not issue the license to people of the same sex, according to chuck Baldwin, who agrees with me

Wait, you refuse to acknowledge or listen to the "9 black robes" of doom....but you will listen to Chuck Baldwin?
 
Chuck balDwin points out that congress makes laws. Supreme court said doma not good. The constitution states that in the absence of fed law, it falls back to the states. Nothing in that statement is wrong
 
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