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Hillary Clinton just started a gunfight

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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In the wake of the Oregon shooting, it now looks as if political gunfights will be breaking out all over the presidential race. How to combat gun violence could become a real issue in the 2016 race: The Republican presidential candidates have seemed to adopt the position that there is little the federal government can do about it, and today, in an effort to contrast with that willfully defeatist posture, Hillary Clinton rolled out some concrete proposals.

Clinton’s new plan, which she will discuss on the campaign trail today, includes a raft of ideas: closing loopholes in the background check system; more aggressive action to revoke the licenses of gun dealers who knowingly supply so-called “straw purchasers”; and repealing a law that protects gun manufacturers from liability for gun violence.

But the most controversial aspect of Clinton’s plan is this: She vowed to take executive action to partly close the loophole that allows private sellers to peddle guns without a background check if Congress doesn’t.

Clinton’s campaign says that this could theoretically be accomplished via a new rule by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms that would more clearly define what it means to be “engaged in the business” of selling firearms. Gun control advocates point out that under federal law, those “engaged in the business” of selling firearms must perform background checks, but federal regulations defining that phrase are too vague, allowing too many gun sales to proceed without such a check. Such federal regs, they say, could be changed through executive action that, for example, would set a clearer threshold defining “engaged in the business” of selling firearms in terms of the number of guns sold.

Arkadi Gerney, a gun policy expert at the Center for American Progress, tells me what Clinton’s new policy proposal means:

“The statute says that anyone engaged in the business of selling firearms must apply for a federal license. Like any other statute where it’s vague, there’s the potential to define it further. You could update the regulation and have a more clear threshold. You couldn’t say, we define ‘engaged in the business’ as anyone who sells a gun ever. But you could change the regulation to be more focused, more narrow, and less vague than it currently is, which makes it very hard to prosecute people who abuse the law and are selling tens and hundreds of guns as private sellers.

“One way you could do this would be to have a clear numerical threshold on the number of gun sales.”

But if Clinton could do this as president, couldn’t Obama do this by executive action right now? Gerney thinks the answer is Yes:

“Clinton’s idea of clarifying further what kind of gun sellers are engaging in business and need to get a license to sell guns is a smart one. She’s right that the President can do more to define the current law on what level of gun-selling activity triggers the requirement to conduct background checks. And, by putting this idea forward it is something of an implicit challenge to the current administration to move forward along these lines.”

More on this later, but this raises new questions: Is Obama, who has been visibly frustrated by government inaction, thinking of undertaking such an executive action? Will Clinton’s public vow to undertake such action raise the pressure on the administration to do the same?

Meanwhile, Clinton’s new proposal seems like an implicit challenge to Bernie Sanders, who has been criticized as insufficiently committed to gun reform. And the vow of action — including executive action — also seems designed to project an urgency that will contrast sharply with the decided lack of urgency projected by the GOP presidential candidates. But that brings us to our next item.

* ON GUNS, TRUMP’S BRASH ‘GET IT DONE ‘ SPIRIT EVAPORATES: On Meet the Press and This Week, Donald Trump was pressed on what we should do about gun violence and mass shootings. He kept repeating that mental illness was the problem and that people are going to slip through the “cracks.” And he said this on Meet about the Oregon shooting:

“You were not allowed to have guns at all in that particular area. And you could make the case that it woulda been a lot better had people had guns because they had something to fire back.”

So, is more armed security Trump’s answer? Pressed on that question, the brash, get-it-done billionaire demurred again. Deporting 11 million people is a piece of cake, but gun violence is a problem we can’t even begin to debate trying to solve.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...plum-hillary-clinton-just-started-a-gunfight/
 
But the most controversial aspect of Clinton’s plan is this: She vowed to take executive action to partly close the loophole that allows private sellers to peddle guns without a background check if Congress doesn’t.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think this particular 'loophole' had anything to do with how the Oregon shooter obtain his weapons....

Thus, what is her point?
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think this particular 'loophole' had anything to do with how the Oregon shooter obtain his weapons....

Thus, what is her point?

That it's a loophole that needs to be closed as a part of sensible gun policy whether or not it had anything to do with this most recent incident.
 
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That it's a loophole that needs to be closed as a part of sensible gun policy whether or not it had anything to do with this most recent incident.

That is certainly reasonable, but it does not address the problem from the perspective of either the Oregon shooter, the CO theater shooter, or the CT grade-school shooter.

Something which identified the mental health issues, inclusive of family reporting/involvement very likely WOULD have, though.
 
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There would be no better way to make sure the GOP gets a high turn out.

The gun manufacturer liability change is just dumb. It is a liberal way to try to get gun companies to close shop. So if a colt 45 was made in 1980 and it is used in a shooting in 2015, a victim can go after Colt? So freaking dumb. No other product on the planet will have such liability that comes with it.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think this particular 'loophole' had anything to do with how the Oregon shooter obtain his weapons....

Thus, what is her point?
Seems pretty clear that her point is to position herself as a serious gun control candidate who is willing to take direct action, even if only in a fairly small area.

Based on the summary in this article, she proposes doing some things that most people probably find reasonable, but hardly inspiring. And then she adds an element with some political risk.

She will attract some fire for ruling by executive order, but she will distinguish herself from others as someone willing to take direct action.

Now if she would only be similarly bold on climate change.
 
There would be no better way to make sure the GOP gets a high turn out.

The gun manufacturer liability change is just dumb. It is a liberal way to try to get gun companies to close shop. So if a colt 45 was made in 1980 and it is used in a shooting in 2015, a victim can go after Colt? So freaking dumb. No other product on the planet will have such liability that comes with it.
Such laws nearly always grandfather in prior transactions. I assume that would be the case here if such a law got passed.

There's almost no chance the major gun manufacturers would go out of business. But I'd bet we'd see a bunch of safety measures added to guns. And maybe gun makers would more carefully scrutinize the dealers who get their guns.
 
I've bought lots of guns and have had a background check on every one of them. This so called loophole applies to a small fraction of guns bought and sold. Libs are just trying to fire up their anti gun base with this useless rhetoric. It won't have any effect on these mass shootings.

It's unfortunate to see that Clinton has adopted the Obamaesque pen and phone strategy which eviscerates the checks and balances that our Constitution contains. I'm sure the libs don't care because they like the notion of an Ubermensch telling them what to do.
 
There would be no better way to make sure the GOP gets a high turn out.

The gun manufacturer liability change is just dumb. It is a liberal way to try to get gun companies to close shop. So if a colt 45 was made in 1980 and it is used in a shooting in 2015, a victim can go after Colt? So freaking dumb. No other product on the planet will have such liability that comes with it.
That's like trying holding a car manufacturer for the owner of the car deliberately piling into people.
 
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This guy gets it (see below), no politician that I have seen has come up with a good policy that would actually help curb these and other types of gun tragedies.

Instead all we get is emotionally driven feel good politics...like the blond reporter in this youtube clip.

 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think this particular 'loophole' had anything to do with how the Oregon shooter obtain his weapons....

Thus, what is her point?
She is just making it a campaign issue since she feels it is good for her.

This issue is one of those I put in the low priority voting category for the country. One where people have a pretty clear idea where they stand on this issue but it will do very little to sway their vote. What she put forth is nothing new.
 
I've bought lots of guns and have had a background check on every one of them. This so called loophole applies to a small fraction of guns bought and sold. Libs are just trying to fire up their anti gun base with this useless rhetoric. It won't have any effect on these mass shootings.
The idea that you shouldn't do anything to make a bad situation better if it doesn't specifically stop mass shootings is stupid.

Do you think the only reason people want better gun laws is to stop these infrequent, unpredictable tragedies?
 
This guy gets it (see below), no politician that I have seen has come up with a good policy that would actually help curb these and other types of gun tragedies.

Instead all we get is emotionally driven feel good politics...like the blond reporter in this youtube clip.


He is absolutely correct. Politicians nearly always engage in the Pavlovian reactions to pander to their base, not work on something to directly address the problem.

The real issue is if most of these shooters are coming from backgrounds where mental illness is identified as either a direct cause or major contributing factor, then we are obligated to find an appropriate way to tie medical records to gun ownership rights. Absent that, there is no way you will ever prevent even one of these types of incidents from occurring, as all of the guns obtained have been done legally, and none of the proposed laws would alter that reality.

All the political banter from Hillary Clinton, Obama, etc is just that: rhetoric to stir up support from their base. Nothing that will address the underlying problem.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think this particular 'loophole' had anything to do with how the Oregon shooter obtain his weapons....

Thus, what is her point?
The gun issue is bigger than this one event. Like keeps getting brought up, 40+ people die every weekend in Chicago.
 
There would be no better way to make sure the GOP gets a high turn out.

The gun manufacturer liability change is just dumb. It is a liberal way to try to get gun companies to close shop. So if a colt 45 was made in 1980 and it is used in a shooting in 2015, a victim can go after Colt? So freaking dumb. No other product on the planet will have such liability that comes with it.
So you would be for treating guns under the same liability standards as other products? I think that would be on the table.
 
He is absolutely correct. Politicians nearly always engage in the Pavlovian reactions to pander to their base, not work on something to directly address the problem.

The real issue is if most of these shooters are coming from backgrounds where mental illness is identified as either a direct cause or major contributing factor, then we are obligated to find an appropriate way to tie medical records to gun ownership rights. Absent that, there is no way you will ever prevent even one of these types of incidents from occurring, as all of the guns obtained have been done legally, and none of the proposed laws would alter that reality.

All the political banter from Hillary Clinton, Obama, etc is just that: rhetoric to stir up support from their base. Nothing that will address the underlying problem.

A few points:

1. I agree with your mental health aspect of gun ownership and linking medical records to gun ownership.

1(a). I don't think most Liberals will go for this as they will view it as treating someone with a disability unfairly. Most would rather no one have a gun if this minority group (mentally unstable/illness) could not have one while everyone else could. Its insane but that is how I see it panning out.
1(b). Most conservatives would rather lock up those with mental illness in an asylum vs not allowing them to have guns if they are walking out amongst us. They will view this as tearing up the constitution.

2. I agree with your assessment on Hillary but I think Obama jumped on it very quickly and heavily due to him being punked by Putin for nearly a weak. He wanted something he could look strong on bc he has looked weak in the foreign policy department as of late and this provided him an opportunity (any politician in his position would have done the same thing...its what they do).
 
And with her announcement, the 2016 Presidential election is set - Rubio v. Biden.
 
and repealing a law that protects gun manufacturers from liability for gun violence.

This is her nuttiest idea of the ones listed.

Are we going to hold distilleries liable for drunk driving fatalities? Or, maybe just the liquor store that sold the trash the booze?
 
That's not a gun issue. That's a degradation of modern society issue.
I don't even know what that means. Isn't it also a fact in play that the kill rate as high as it is is also way down in recent years? Maybe we just need a reality check and better marketers.
 
This is her nuttiest idea of the ones listed.

Are we going to hold distilleries liable for drunk driving fatalities? Or, maybe just the liquor store that sold the trash the booze?
Exactly to that same standard. Good job.
 
Condom companies liable for STD's?
Sure. All products but guns fall under current liability laws. It doesn't mean the companies pay every time there is a problem. But when there is a problem with a gun, those companies alone are shielded and the victims of their negligence get their right wiped out. Time to level the field.
 
Sure. All products but guns fall under current liability laws. It doesn't mean the companies pay every time there is a problem. But when there is a problem with a gun, those companies alone are shielded and the victims of their negligence get their right wiped out. Time to level the field.

Companies are held liable for product failures that cause harm.

They aren't held liable when the product functions normally, but is used to commit crime.

Should I expect to see Chicago Cutlery being held liable for these murders?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/23/teens-detained-after-five-found-dead/30555119/
 
The company that makes this product is responsible for the Boston Marathon Bombing...

all-american-pressure-cooker-941.jpg
 
The idea that you shouldn't do anything to make a bad situation better if it doesn't specifically stop mass shootings is stupid.

Do you think the only reason people want better gun laws is to stop these infrequent, unpredictable tragedies?

Nice of you to admit that more gun laws won't stop these types of situations. Unfortunately this acknowledgment only means that you want to pass laws that infringe on lawful uses of guns and that is sad.
 
Companies are held liable for product failures that cause harm.

They aren't held liable when the product functions normally, but is used to commit crime.

Should I expect to see Chicago Cutlery being held liable for these murders?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/23/teens-detained-after-five-found-dead/30555119/
Right, that's what how it would be for guns. If the gun fires and kills a person when it drops to the ground, your product is not safe. Manufacturers know guns drop and should design a weapon that won't kill accidentally. If the gun fires and kills when the trigger is pulled, you are golden.
 
Why is Stanley still in business?

They clearly are responsible for bringing down the World Trade Center...

Stanley-99.jpg
 
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Why is Stanley still in business?

They clearly are responsible for bringing down the World Trade Center...

Stanley-99.jpg
All of these products you are referencing are covered by current liability laws. You are making my point. Thanks.
 
Right, that's what how it would be for guns. If the gun fires and kills a person when it drops to the ground, your product is not safe. Manufacturers know guns drop and should design a weapon that won't kill accidentally. If the gun fires and kills when the trigger is pulled, you are golden.

That is not her intent. (Also, that circumstance is fabricated 9 times out of 10. "I don't know what happen? The gun just went off by itself.")

If it her intent then it is purely superficial and her camp is truly just trying to throw feel good sounds bites out there.

The intent will be to try and hold accountable gun manufactuers instead of criminals, or enabling parents, neighbors etc.
 
Condom companies liable for STD's?

I think this argument can be applied to a great many examples but that doesnt lessen the fact that there is a real societal problem with mass killings in the US. In so many of these killings it is coming out that the shooters have pretty serious mental issues. I know many like to argue the logic of a gun law being tied back to the manufacturer as being misguided and maybe in many comparisons, it seems illogical. Right now the country isnt dealing with masses of people losing their lives due to rampid condom failure.
I fail to see why much stricter gun laws can not be enacted. Make the federal laws much more stringent. Make the access to guns harder. However it has to be worded. Tax the hell out of guns. Make it extremely expensive for people to get guns and especially to acquire an arsenal.
I am deeply for gun control and am not insecure about my stance however i know there are many who defend it. I dont understand the argument that people have the right to have an arsenal especially when they have documented mental issues.
The govt was able to legislate cigarettes (sorry Ciggy) and smoking is way down. It is anyones right to go out and kill themselves, but the real issue that moved the legislation for smoking was data on how bad secondary smoke is. I just dont see why this same argument couldnt be used as a benchmark.
 
That is not her intent. (Also, that circumstance is fabricated 9 times out of 10. "I don't know what happen? The gun just went off by itself.")

If it her intent then it is purely superficial and her camp is truly just trying to throw feel good sounds bites out there.

The intent will be to try and hold accountable gun manufactuers instead of criminals, or enabling parents, neighbors etc.
Her intent doesn't really matter, she isn't rewriting the liability laws. She is simply putting gun makers on the same standing condom, cooking utensil and all other companies enjoy with all other products. Let's be sane about this, that's a totally fair and just position.
 
1. Time for a thoughtful debate in our society. Do something, or be like Jeb Bush and just shrug your shoulders and accept more deaths. I hope we could thoughtfully discuss what concrete steps the majority of Americans can accept to reduce gun violence. And, by gun violence I mean mass shootings, guns used in crimes against the public and against family members. And, guns used against oneself.
2. The Chicago argument is a farce. Chicago is just code for I hate Obama, and black people can't live peacefully. Americans die in large numbers all over the country from guns. Chicago has more people, so more people die from guns and it gets more ink. We make fun of Arb and his Omaha stories, but they reflect the number of deaths in a mid sized city. You can go to Western Nebraska and find gun violence, but, you won't hear about it nationally because there is not a wider perspective and no shock value. Waterloo and Cedar Rapids have had recent shootings. Is that national news?
3. MSNBC has a reitred FBI agent on a lot (Cannot remember his name right now), and he challenged Obama and all of Washington DC to come together. He asked why not have a special commission on this? He said members of Congress love to take junkets all over the world, why not go to other countries and study how they control gun violence, and what would transfer to America?
 
Nice of you to admit that more gun laws won't stop these types of situations. Unfortunately this acknowledgment only means that you want to pass laws that infringe on lawful uses of guns and that is sad.
I certainly do not want to infringe on lawful uses of guns. I may want to redefine some of those lawful uses and I definitely want to tighten access to guns.

You apparently want to keep it easy for people who wouldn't pass background checks to get guns. How do you justify that?

You apparently don't want to restrict the lethality of guns in any way. How do you justify that?

You apparently don't want to make it easy to trace guns that are used in criminal activities. How do you justify that?

I could go on.

If you don't see any good reasons or ways to restrict guns as a way to reduce the injuries and deaths from guns, then you certainly wouldn't pass my background check, because you are clearly a sociopath.
 
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In the wake of the Oregon shooting, it now looks as if political gunfights will be breaking out all over the presidential race. How to combat gun violence could become a real issue in the 2016 race: The Republican presidential candidates have seemed to adopt the position that there is little the federal government can do about it, and today, in an effort to contrast with that willfully defeatist posture, Hillary Clinton rolled out some concrete proposals.

Clinton’s new plan, which she will discuss on the campaign trail today, includes a raft of ideas: closing loopholes in the background check system; more aggressive action to revoke the licenses of gun dealers who knowingly supply so-called “straw purchasers”; and repealing a law that protects gun manufacturers from liability for gun violence.

But the most controversial aspect of Clinton’s plan is this: She vowed to take executive action to partly close the loophole that allows private sellers to peddle guns without a background check if Congress doesn’t.

Clinton’s campaign says that this could theoretically be accomplished via a new rule by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms that would more clearly define what it means to be “engaged in the business” of selling firearms. Gun control advocates point out that under federal law, those “engaged in the business” of selling firearms must perform background checks, but federal regulations defining that phrase are too vague, allowing too many gun sales to proceed without such a check. Such federal regs, they say, could be changed through executive action that, for example, would set a clearer threshold defining “engaged in the business” of selling firearms in terms of the number of guns sold.

Arkadi Gerney, a gun policy expert at the Center for American Progress, tells me what Clinton’s new policy proposal means:

“The statute says that anyone engaged in the business of selling firearms must apply for a federal license. Like any other statute where it’s vague, there’s the potential to define it further. You could update the regulation and have a more clear threshold. You couldn’t say, we define ‘engaged in the business’ as anyone who sells a gun ever. But you could change the regulation to be more focused, more narrow, and less vague than it currently is, which makes it very hard to prosecute people who abuse the law and are selling tens and hundreds of guns as private sellers.

“One way you could do this would be to have a clear numerical threshold on the number of gun sales.”

But if Clinton could do this as president, couldn’t Obama do this by executive action right now? Gerney thinks the answer is Yes:

“Clinton’s idea of clarifying further what kind of gun sellers are engaging in business and need to get a license to sell guns is a smart one. She’s right that the President can do more to define the current law on what level of gun-selling activity triggers the requirement to conduct background checks. And, by putting this idea forward it is something of an implicit challenge to the current administration to move forward along these lines.”

More on this later, but this raises new questions: Is Obama, who has been visibly frustrated by government inaction, thinking of undertaking such an executive action? Will Clinton’s public vow to undertake such action raise the pressure on the administration to do the same?

Meanwhile, Clinton’s new proposal seems like an implicit challenge to Bernie Sanders, who has been criticized as insufficiently committed to gun reform. And the vow of action — including executive action — also seems designed to project an urgency that will contrast sharply with the decided lack of urgency projected by the GOP presidential candidates. But that brings us to our next item.

* ON GUNS, TRUMP’S BRASH ‘GET IT DONE ‘ SPIRIT EVAPORATES: On Meet the Press and This Week, Donald Trump was pressed on what we should do about gun violence and mass shootings. He kept repeating that mental illness was the problem and that people are going to slip through the “cracks.” And he said this on Meet about the Oregon shooting:

“You were not allowed to have guns at all in that particular area. And you could make the case that it woulda been a lot better had people had guns because they had something to fire back.”

So, is more armed security Trump’s answer? Pressed on that question, the brash, get-it-done billionaire demurred again. Deporting 11 million people is a piece of cake, but gun violence is a problem we can’t even begin to debate trying to solve.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...plum-hillary-clinton-just-started-a-gunfight/
I welcome her making this is a full bore campaign issue. Many union households in the Midwest are also avid sportsman. Last time the dems pushed this hard, many of those households went Republican
 
So you would be for treating guns under the same liability standards as other products? I think that would be on the table.

Gun manufacturer are subject to the same product liability laws as other manufacturers. If your gun has a faulty safety that results in you shooting your foot off, you can sue and win. What Hillary is proposing is to make gun makers strickly liable for intentional killings. In other words, punish the gun owners for making guns - no fault required, just send a check to the murder victim's attorney.

This is simple intented to make lawyers rich and drive gun manufacturers out of business.

BTW, I wouldn't object to cheating a pool to compensate victims of gun violence. Just make the money off-limits to the slip and fall attorneys.
 
The company that makes this product is responsible for the Boston Marathon Bombing...

all-american-pressure-cooker-941.jpg
This would be like trying to argue that a gun manufacturer is responsible for using the gun as a hammer. These guns were used for the precise manner they were created: To destroy things.
 
Gun manufacturer are subject to the same product liability laws as other manufacturers. If your gun has a faulty safety that results in you shooting your foot off, you can sue and win. What Hillary is proposing is to make gun makers strickly liable for intentional killings. In other words, punish the gun owners for making guns - no fault required, just send a check to the murder victim's attorney.

This is simple intented to make lawyers rich and drive gun manufacturers out of business.

BTW, I wouldn't object to cheating a pool to compensate victims of gun violence. Just make the money off-limits to the slip and fall attorneys.
This isn't my understanding of the situation. My understanding is gun makers are uniquely protected and the proposal is to treat them like any other business with all normal protections and defenses afforded any other business. It's sort of ironic to be on the anti regulation side in a gun debate but here I am and there are the cons defending big government market intervention.
 
This isn't my understanding of the situation. My understanding is gun makers are uniquely protected and the proposal is to treat them like any other business with all normal protections and defenses afforded any other business. It's sort of ironic to be on the anti regulation side in a gun debate but here I am and there are the cons defending big government market intervention.

Your correct. There is a federal law that grants them protections. I'll read it and get up to speed.
 
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