HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto’s Abortion Thoughts Thread

State of Illinois

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Recording (some of) my extended thoughts, first, a few links that are pretty informative and pretty non-political:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/24/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-u-s-2/

https://qz.com/1910532/the-reasons-why-us-abortion-rates-are-falling/amp/

I have always maintained that I want abortion to be legal because:
  1. Safety. We know laws don’t tend to affect demand for a thing that history demonstrates simply doesn’t go away, and abortion is no different. We’ll now have more issues with unsafe, dangerous, shady “providers”.
  2. The abortion rate has dropped steadily since 1973. As access to women’s reproductive care increases, abortion rate decreases. As access to contraception increases, abortion rate decreases. Providers like the vilified Planned Parenthood have helped with the lowering of the abortion rate. Now, watch as “pro-life” “Christian” and most definitely private women’s care providers pop up and most assuredly have public money funneled their way. There’s always a money grab in this. Always. And guess what, while the services provided might mirror those of planned parenthood (minus abortion procedures and medications), they will not erase demand, meaning as well-intentioned as they may be, a woman who wants an abortion just became a woman more likely to seek an option less safe.
  3. Again, the rate has declined, and before we change laws, understanding why should be paramount in the discussion. To my mind, this is the point of separation of church and state—to ensure the guaranteed “space” for flat, unemotional pragmatism unroofed to whatever extent possible in wide-varyingly-interpretable faith-based stuff. Studies show that abortion rate lowering coincides with democratic leadership. Okay, why? Well, it seems that access to basic healthcare increases as does access to contraception—thus lowering the demand. There are many factors, of course, but access to preventative care in any area of health—dietary care for example reducing blood-pressure and cardiovascular-related issues.
  4. It is alarming, simply terrifying, how many women in our society are raped. And we know most rapes go unreported for myriad reasons. I have some very personal insights into this that I’m going to refrain from expanding on here, but I think they’re informative and consistent with studies on the issue.
  5. I’ll pass along what happened just two days ago, though. While I was at work, my partner took our 9 month-old girl for a walk to a park five blocks from our home. A pickup truck occupied by two men passed by them and catcalled my partner. That, alone, can be terrifying for a woman. But that wasn’t the end of it. The men circled the block to pass by again, this time very slowly, again catcalling, asked her name, asking if she’d like “another baby”. Thankfully that was the end of it. But what if it wasn’t? What if they raped her? What if the rape resulted in pregnancy, in part because she couldn’t access immediate care including an abortion pill option?
  6. Relating to above… one of the central arguments for legal and safe abortion is to allow a woman to have agency over her body. Men have full agency. There really is no decision a man is unable to make about his body. That’s a privilege women would like to have as well. I realize privilege is a loaded word for a lot of people, but think of the definition in the most benign, flat terms. Affording a group of people LESS privilege than another group effectively lowers their perceived (and real) power in society. Women just became even more—arguably—second-class citizens. And the moment that become clear—consciously or subconsciously, they tend to become even more targeted for sexual violence. Roe afforded women greater agency over their body, closing the gap between a man’s agency over his body and a woman’s over hers. This is something. I think men, speaking general which is always risky for the expectant triggered reaction, could try harder to understand.
 

ICHerky

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I’m pro life but would agree to abortion being allowed the first 12 weeks, nothing after that. I see 12 weeks as more than enough time to determine you are pregnant and make that decision.
 

State of Illinois

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I’m pro life but would agree to abortion being allowed the first 12 weeks, nothing after that. I see 12 weeks as more than enough time to determine you are pregnant and make that decision.
This restriction, when accompanied by good access to healthcare — especially womens reproductive healthcare, covers nearly all abortions. This is why picketing and trying to shut down providers like Planned Parenthood is so dumb. Provides like this help accomplish the very thing you just described while also helping reduce the demand along the way. Never mind the screening for many other womens health issues.
 

ICHerky

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This restriction, when accompanied by good access to healthcare — especially womens reproductive healthcare, covers nearly all abortions. This is why picketing and trying to shut down providers like Planned Parenthood is so dumb. Provides like this help accomplish the very thing you just described while also helping reduce the demand along the way. Never mind the screening for many other womens health issues.


I understand it covers most all which is why it makes no sense for dems to be against it. I get most pub politicians want zero but could be possible to get enough to support this.
 

State of Illinois

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I understand it covers most all which is why it makes no sense for dems to be against it. I get most pub politicians want zero but could be possible to get enough to support this.
Most Dems — voters — aren’t against it. Dem politicians like to keep the abortion issue alive, just like Rs, so they can politick and campaign on the issue. This is why I call the issue one massive ruse on the American citizenry—a refrain I’ve repeated for many years in this place.
 

State of Illinois

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Because what about the ones that are necessary but are beyond whatever arbitrary limit?
Meh. Woman is expendable in those scenarios. Because, you know, pro life.

Im sorry Wendy. Truly. I can only imagine the pain and fear and anger and whatever other emotions.

My main feeling is the widened gap between a woman’s agency over her body and a man’s agency over his. The wider that gap, the closer we become to basically codifying women as a lower-class citizen.
 

ICHerky

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Meh. Woman is expendable in those scenarios. Because, you know, pro life.

Im sorry Wendy. Truly. I can only imagine the pain and fear and anger and whatever other emotions.

My main feeling is the widened gap between a woman’s agency over her body and a man’s agency over his. The wider that gap, the closer we become to basically codifying women as a lower-class citizen.

And this is when reasonable conversations end, extreme stupid stuff.

What fear? Abortion will be legal in most states. Several states will have few or no restrictions.

Women second class citizens? Sorry but just dumb.
 

TC Nole OX

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Meh. Woman is expendable in those scenarios. Because, you know, pro life.

Im sorry Wendy. Truly. I can only imagine the pain and fear and anger and whatever other emotions.

My main feeling is the widened gap between a woman’s agency over her body and a man’s agency over his. The wider that gap, the closer we become to basically codifying women as a lower-class citizen.

The bolded text explains what actually drives this issue.
 

Keehawk

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So you guys are claiming that men have the right to end human fetus life and women don't?
 
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mooresville hawk

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There is little to no compromise in politics today. It is a zero sum game where each side feels they cannot give an inch, so we end up with nothing being accomplished. They then blame the other side. That is not what we elect our politicians to do, but too many of us believe what we are told.

This can be seen every day on this site as both sides bicker and name call rather than having a rational discussion. Some of it may be trolling, but we can learn something from those who have different views than us in many situations.
 

bdcolt45er

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There is little to no compromise in politics today. It is a zero sum game where each side feels they cannot give an inch, so we end up with nothing being accomplished. They then blame the other side. That is not what we elect our politicians to do, but too many of us believe what we are told.

This can be seen every day on this site as both sides bicker and name call rather than having a rational discussion. Some of it may be trolling, but we can learn something from those who have different views than us in many situations.
The flaws of our winner take all election system has resulted in a dichotomy where both choices suck. There is no incentive to compromise. There is no allowance for nuance or examination to actually study what policies facilitate the desired the result. Our politicians focus on electability and that improves by simplifying debate not by presenting good policies.
 

Jan Itor

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Because what about the ones that are necessary but are beyond whatever arbitrary limit?
Necessary for the mother’s health? From what I’ve seen, that provision is in the new law in Arizona. Within the first 15 weeks and if the mother’s life is in danger.

The current problem here is they’re struggling to determine which law is currently in effect. The law that’s been on the books since 1901 and the one the Governor recently sign. Also thought I heard on the local news that the SCOTUS decision doesn’t go into effect for 30 days, or something like that.

The new law below does not allow exceptions for rape or incest, which I find ridiculous. However, those can still get an abortion within the first 15 weeks of pregnancy,

 
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goldmom

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@Wendy79
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When the SC reversed its Roe decision, did this, essentially, widen the gap between a woman’s agency over her body and a man’s agency over his, symbolically demote your standing in the American citizenry?
I hope not.
I’m not a fan of abortion as a means of birth control. I abhor the idea that there are some young women who do seem to be alright with the idea. They strike me as witless and clueless. Perhaps it’s actually best they don’t become mothers.

True story - I knew a young woman who had FIVE abortions. She didn’t want to get on the pill because she heard it could cause a weight gain. (1970’s urban myth)
When she married she couldn’t get pregnant. Too many abortions left accumulated scarring of the uterus.
But do I think it was still her choice? Absolutely.

And woe to any man who thinks he can tell a woman she must do his reproductive bidding.
 

Wendy79

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Define necessary? It is exceedingly rare an abortion is needed to save a woman’s life, what other reason would there be?

I've mentioned my friend. The one whose baby had a genetic disorder incompatible with life. By about 21 weeks, the fetus had no brain beyond the brain stem. Minimal lung and kidney development. Other deformities. Amniotic fluid was super low, and even if the fetus was "normal" there's a good chance it wouldn't have lasted until 24-25 weeks. The low amniotic fluid resulted in the fetus having a broken femur. She was very loved and very wanted.

The absolute "best" case scenario, if abortion wasn't an option (like some on here and elsewhere hope), is she would have been born 24-25 weeks, had absolutely zero awareness, been on a permanent ventilator and permanent dialysis. No vision. No hearing. No conscious thought. Maybe the most basic of reflexes. Plus the whole broken femur thing.

My friend's life wasn't in immediate danger, so the "mother's life is at risk" clause wouldn't have applied at that time. The amniotic fluid would have kept leaking. Fetal demise would have happened. At that point the tissue would become necrotic, and only then would my friend have been able to get care (hopefully) in some places, due to the risk of sepsis. Only that care would have probably been a hysterectomy to limit the spread of infection.

Instead, she was able to be induced at around 21 weeks. This was risky (about a 5-10% risk of death versus an actual abortion, which when done safely has very minimal risk). She and her husband were able to meet her and hug her until she passed shortly after.
 

ICHerky

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I've mentioned my friend. The one whose baby had a genetic disorder incompatible with life. By about 21 weeks, the fetus had no brain beyond the brain stem. Minimal lung and kidney development. Other deformities. Amniotic fluid was super low, and even if the fetus was "normal" there's a good chance it wouldn't have lasted until 24-25 weeks. The low amniotic fluid resulted in the fetus having a broken femur. She was very loved and very wanted.

The absolute "best" case scenario, if abortion wasn't an option (like some on here and elsewhere hope), is she would have been born 24-25 weeks, had absolutely zero awareness, been on a permanent ventilator and permanent dialysis. No vision. No hearing. No conscious thought. Maybe the most basic of reflexes. Plus the whole broken femur thing.

My friend's life wasn't in immediate danger, so the "mother's life is at risk" clause wouldn't have applied at that time. The amniotic fluid would have kept leaking. Fetal demise would have happened. At that point the tissue would become necrotic, and only then would my friend have been able to get care (hopefully) in some places, due to the risk of sepsis. Only that care would have probably been a hysterectomy to limit the spread of infection.

Instead, she was able to be induced at around 21 weeks. This was risky (about a 5-10% risk of death versus an actual abortion, which when done safely has very minimal risk). She and her husband were able to meet her and hug her until she passed shortly after.

This is another very rare occurrence and I don’t have an answer for this but definitely agree something needs to allow for the abortion in these type of cases. But that doesn’t mean all abortions for anyone beyond the 12 weeks.

Reasonable solutions, not all or nothing.
 
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Wendy79

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This is another very rare occurrence and I don’t have an answer for this but definitely agree something needs to allow for the abortion in these type of cases. But that doesn’t mean all abortions for anyone beyond the 12 weeks.

Reasonable solutions, not all or nothing.

But if you try to legislate towards more limitations, you're not going to be able to account for all potential exceptions. Doctors will be scared to provide necessary treatment (as what recently happened in Poland, I believe, and what happened in Ireland before their referendum).

Abortions past 30 weeks are ridiculously rare and expensive. Only a handful of doctors in the country perform them. People aren't having them because they suddenly decide they just don't want to be pregnant anymore.
 

ICHerky

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But if you try to legislate towards more limitations, you're not going to be able to account for all potential exceptions. Doctors will be scared to provide necessary treatment (as what recently happened in Poland, I believe, and what happened in Ireland before their referendum).

Abortions past 30 weeks are ridiculously rare and expensive. Only a handful of doctors in the country perform them. People aren't having them because they suddenly decide they just don't want to be pregnant anymore.


30 weeks is way to long for me. We’ll have to figure out the rare cases along the way. I’d rather have that then unnecessary abortions at 20, 25, 30 weeks.
 
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State of Illinois

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I hope not.
I’m not a fan of abortion as a means of birth control. I abhor the idea that there are some young women who do seem to be alright with the idea. They strike me as witless and clueless. Perhaps it’s actually best they don’t become mothers.

True story - I knew a young woman who had FIVE abortions. She didn’t want to get on the pill because she heard it could cause a weight gain. (1970’s urban myth)
When she married she couldn’t get pregnant. Too many abortions left accumulated scarring of the uterus.
But do I think it was still her choice? Absolutely.

And woe to any man who thinks he can tell a woman she must do his reproductive bidding.
Wow. So you take an unbelievable anomaly (look at the statistics), then ascribe that anomaly out to some perverse idea that some (implicitly) large contingent of women view abortion as birth control (implicitly on par with the pill, based on the construction of your point) finding, as it seems you nearly always do, an angle to bad-mouth women, then your cherry on top is to express woe to any man who thinks he can tell a woman she must do his reproductive bidding? — THAT’S WHAT THIS STACKED SCOTUS ESSENTIALLY JUST DID.

You have a startling way of “reasoning” thru things. I know you’ll react defensively, but, damn, Goldie, think about this post. The stats don’t bear out, not in the slightest, this notion of “witless and clueless” women treating abortion like their go-to means of birth control.

Damn, I even provided links to the stats so you might have a more “reasoned” point of perspective.
 
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HawkNester

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I’m pro life but would agree to abortion being allowed the first 12 weeks, nothing after that. I see 12 weeks as more than enough time to determine you are pregnant and make that decision.
You need to educate yourself on why this is a bad idea.