How binding is an estimate?

[theiacowtipper]

a contractor gave my elderly mother a price for remodeling a bedroom. Includes stripping the walls to the studs, insulating, building a closet, and finishing walls with drywall. Price quoted was 6500, which I thought was high but reasonably fair. The estimate states that the contractor will supply all labor and materials. It outlines everything that is being done, signed by her and him.

He now states that labor was not included in the deal, and wants another 1500. I wouldn't have let her sign this for 8k, as it is out of line for the work. Of course, the room is half finished. What say you HROT?

 

[The Tradition]

Your mom needs to tell this guy...

 

[22*43*51]

a contractor gave my elderly mother a price for remodeling a bedroom. Includes stripping the walls to the studs, insulating, building a closet, and finishing walls with drywall. Price quoted was 6500, which I thought was high but reasonably fair. The estimate states that the contractor will supply all labor and materials. It outlines everything that is being done, signed by her and him.

He now states that labor was not included in the deal, and wants another 1500. I wouldn't have let her sign this for 8k, as it is out of line for the work. Of course, the room is half finished. What say you HROT?

I'll give you an answer in a range...

 

[lucas80]

Not a lawyer, but if there is a written estimate and labor is specifically listed the contractor has a problem. OP, were you present when the estimate was given, meaning does the contractor know it isn't just a vulnerable old lady involved?
Ask for a written explanation why the price increased then casually mention you aren't a pussy and won't take this sitting down. I doubt you even have to sue, most counties and states still have some functioning agencies designed to protect the elderly from predatory practices. Threaten to go to one of them.

 

[cheeselog8]

Why would labor not be included? Isn't that the point of getting an estimate?

If he just forgot to include it then that's on him and he needs to eat that cost as it's pretty damn misleading.

 

[soybean]

So, what it an estimate, or an offer, that your mother signed? If it was an offer, as I suspect, and your mother signed it she accepted that offer as originally written. If it stated labor was included the contractor made a mistake not your mother. But, and its a big but, do you want this guy to finish this job and make you mother's home whole again, or do you want to fight it out to the bitter end? This might be one of those deals that you step in and negotiate a truce of sorts on your mother's behalf. Maybe a "Hey, Buddy, can we meet halfway here and leave the lawyers out of this?"

 

[UNIowaHawk]

If the $6500 doesn't include labor that means it's all materials. There ain't no way in hell a bedroom plus closet can total $6500. I get there are some disposal costs and I don't know the size of the bedroom, but assuming it's say 16x16 and he isn't replacing the ceiling he would be at:
•20 sheets of 4x8 drywall at $9 each (4 per wall plus 4 extra for closet.
•say 12 2x4's at $3 each for closet (assuming non walkin)
•one bucket green compound and one blue at $10 each
•one roll of tape $3
•maybe a roll of perfect 90 for $15
•say he replaces the door and adds bifold doors to closet your looking at $300-$600 depending on wood
•then you have roughly 100 feet of trim for base boards and around doors, windows, closet will be about $2-$5 per foot again depending on style.
•say she textures the walls that's $50 in materials though one could argue he would have far more than enough compound leftover for mudding and taping.
•primer for walls $50
•paint for walls all depends, but two cans should be more than enough-- assume $50 each.
•repainted ceiling would be $30 (ceiling paint is cheaper than wall)
•if he retires them he may need new outlets and covers, maybe door handles, new HVAC plates say $200 tops.

All that gets you to $1200-$1800 depending on materials picked. Then add in carpet at 250 square feet at $4 a square foot so another thousand.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Not a lawyer, but if there is a written estimate and labor is specifically listed the contractor has a problem. OP, were you present when the estimate was given, meaning does the contractor know it isn't just a vulnerable old lady involved?
Ask for a written explanation why the price increased then casually mention you aren't a pussy and won't take this sitting down. I doubt you even have to sue, most counties and states still have some functioning agencies designed to protect the elderly from predatory practices. Threaten to go to one of them.

Not to parse things too closely...but you use the word "estimate", not "bid" or "quotation". You might have some exposure there IMO if the contractor really wanted to play hardball. In all fairness, it is difficult to provide firm quotations on jobs where there are unseen conditions behind walls, etc, so it is common for a contractor to hedge on their quotes, or estimates.

That being said, his estimate said that all labor is included...therefore it is very poor form for him to now say that he didn't include it and I would confront him about that with vigor. If, for instance, he took down the existing drywall and ran into unseen mold that needed to be dealt with before re-drywalling, etc, then in fairness, he would have a case for additional compensation in the form of a "change order".

However, that does not seem to be what you are describing and I would not stand for that. I would hold him to his initial estimate/quote and let him know clearly that you are not going to tolerate this and will post on-line about his ethics, contact local building trades groups, contact local zoning/licensing people, etc, to let others know about his tactics. He will then likely "remember" that he did include labor after all.

 

[hawkifann]

Why would labor not be included? Isn't that the point of getting an estimate?

If he just forgot to include it then that's on him and he needs to eat that cost as it's pretty damn misleading.

This. I'm a few weeks away from putting a home renovation out for bid. I'll looking at all the fine print, but one of my expectations is that contractors will estimate labor up front. I get that it's an estimate and that things can come up, but i certainly expect the labor to be included up front.

 

[cubsMDdmb]

We are about 2 weeks from moving into the home the we had designed and built. My biggest worry when we started this was a dishonest contractor. The horror stories I've heard from all sorts of people about contractors made me fear for my sanity. My wife and I never had dreams of building but we did and it has been thoroughly enjoyable because of an amazingly honest and skilled contractor who always makes everything right and didn't lowball the bid just to get our business. The scenario laid out by the OP is just the sort of thing I was worried about. We happened to get a little lucky I think by choosing the right guy.

I personally would tell him to get lost and find someone else to finish it. It won't be hard to get someone to finish the job. From the details listed it sounds like this guy has a little bit of pre-meditated racket going where he low balls a bid and shakes you down for money later. I've NEVER gotten an estimate that didn't include labor. As others have said, the job may cost more because of things you've changed from the estimate or unforeseen circumstances, but otherwise it should be the same.

 

[Lone Clone]

Not to parse things too closely...but you use the word "estimate", not "bid" or "quotation". You might have some exposure there IMO if the contractor really wanted to play hardball. In all fairness, it is difficult to provide firm quotations on jobs where there are unseen conditions behind walls, etc, so it is common for a contractor to hedge on their quotes, or estimates.

That being said, his estimate said that all labor is included...therefore it is very poor form for him to now say that he didn't include it and I would confront him about that with vigor. If, for instance, he took down the existing drywall and ran into unseen mold that needed to be dealt with before re-drywalling, etc, then in fairness, he would have a case for additional compensation in the form of a "change order".

However, that does not seem to be what you are describing and I would not stand for that. I would hold him to his initial estimate/quote and let him know clearly that you are not going to tolerate this and will post on-line about his ethics, contact local building trades groups, contact local zoning/licensing people, etc, to let others know about his tactics. He will then likely "remember" that he did include labor after all.

This is confusing to me. I asked for an estimate a few years ago of some repair work. I was told they figured it would take X amount of hours for two guys, so the cost would be Y, but it could be more if they got into the work and something arose. I said OK. One guy shows up, does the work in about half the estimated time, and they bill me the full amount of the estimate. I bitched.

My feeling was that it wasn't a bid -- in other words, it wasn't a "I will do X amount of work and you will pay me Y" dollars. It was an estimate of what I could expect to be billed, based on the stated factors.

Another example of LC being old and out of touch? Or just sloppy nomenclature by the contractor?

 

[h-hawk]

FWIW we have had a lot of work done on the house during the 20 plus years we have lived here and cannot remember a time when labor was not included on the estimate. It sounds like a ripoff to me too.

LC- I am always happy when they get done faster than their estimate

 

[theiacowtipper]

FWIW, here is the text the document sent to my mother. This is it.

We will supply all of the labor and material to remodel xxxxxxx bedroom;
1. Demo the entire bedroom taking out all old cabinetry, ceilings, and walls.
2.Reframe walls for a closet on the north wall one half closet rod for hanging
clothes, and one half shelving for sweaters, linens, etc.
3.Install lighting in the closet.
4.Reinsulate, rewire, and hang new Sheetrock.
5. Finish Sheetrock, prime, and paint.
6. Reuse the trim existing in the room.

The price for the completed project $6,500. With payments made in an
agreement between contractor and homeowner.

All liability insurance is carried with KSB INS. Co.

 

[theiacowtipper]

Note that the document does not use the words quote, estimate or contract.

 

[The Tradition]

Note that the document does not use the words quote, estimate or contract.

He offered and she accepted. It's a contract.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

FWIW, here is the text the document sent to my mother. This is it.

We will supply all of the labor and material to remodel xxxxxxx bedroom;
1. Demo the entire bedroom taking out all old cabinetry, ceilings, and walls.
2.Reframe walls for a closet on the north wall one half closet rod for hanging
clothes, and one half shelving for sweaters, linens, etc.
3.Install lighting in the closet.
4.Reinsulate, rewire, and hang new Sheetrock.
5. Finish Sheetrock, prime, and paint.
6. Reuse the trim existing in the room.

The price for the completed project $6,500. With payments made in an
agreement between contractor and homeowner.

All liability insurance is carried with KSB INS. Co.

Given the bolded section above, it is on him to complete the project as per the quote/estimate, etc. As someone else said, the materials for that work should be nowhere near the $6500 figure. It sure seems as though he is going for a rip off here.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

This is confusing to me. I asked for an estimate a few years ago of some repair work. I was told they figured it would take X amount of hours for two guys, so the cost would be Y, but it could be more if they got into the work and something arose. I said OK. One guy shows up, does the work in about half the estimated time, and they bill me the full amount of the estimate. I bitched.

My feeling was that it wasn't a bid -- in other words, it wasn't a "I will do X amount of work and you will pay me Y" dollars. It was an estimate of what I could expect to be billed, based on the stated factors.

Another example of LC being old and out of touch? Or just sloppy nomenclature by the contractor?

Kind of a gray area here IMO. The total cost to you didn't change from the original estimate, although I am sure you are right that he didn't have near the cost in it that he originally represented to you. I think you have a case to complain here though.

FWIW, quoted automotive repairs very often go this way...the job is quoted as per a standard and then if/when it is finished faster than that standard, you are almost always charged the standard rate.

Next time, you could ask for a "time and materials, not to exceed" price quote. An honest contractor can then hedge a little and provide a little higher estimate to cover unexpected developments and changes in scope while the project is underway and then if the job goes well and comes in less than anticipated, they should then bill you a lesser amount than the top end price quoted, based on actual costs.

 

[whatsup13579er]

FWIW, here is the text the document sent to my mother. This is it.

We will supply all of the labor and material to remodel xxxxxxx bedroom;
1. Demo the entire bedroom taking out all old cabinetry, ceilings, and walls.
2.Reframe walls for a closet on the north wall one half closet rod for hanging
clothes, and one half shelving for sweaters, linens, etc.
3.Install lighting in the closet.
4.Reinsulate, rewire, and hang new Sheetrock.
5. Finish Sheetrock, prime, and paint.
6. Reuse the trim existing in the room.

The price for the completed project $6,500. With payments made in an
agreement between contractor and homeowner.

All liability insurance is carried with KSB INS. Co.

I'd tell him to go pound sand and he better finish the job for $6500.

 

[artradley]

ed to protect the elderly from predatory practices. Threaten to go to one of them.

He offered and she accepted. It's a contract.[/QUOTE]

This. That's a contract right there. I'd go a similar route as Soybean ("Let's keep the lawyers out") but I'd be more hardball on the negotiation. I'd go as high as $500 ($7000 total), but do two things:

1 - Make sure the final payment is not paid until completion of the job (no negotiating on that point)

2 - Before the final payment I would write two checks; one for $500 and one for the the remaining due less $500. Let him know he can have the $500 check and you will tell everybody you know to never use him because he lied about the contract. Or he can let you rip-up the last $500 check and you will leave well enough alone.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

There are people who will make the contractor finish the job and be happy about it. If you know what I mean.

 

[Pepperman]

It wouldn't be worth it for either side to get a lawyer involved for $1500. You'll pay that much just to get a lawyer to do something for you.

From building a house not that long ago, I have numerous dealings with a general contractor (who is a total cheat) and various sub-contractors (some honest, some scum). In general, I've found that many throw "hail mary" passes when billing. If you pay it, they gladly accept and move on, and if you argue back they generally have trouble remembering how the negotiation went. Once you remind them, they'll try to come up with some reason why it should go their way anyway, but eventually if you keep it up they'll let it go.

It is probably the worst industry I've ever dealt with - nobody shows up on time, most try to quote you one thing and use cheaper materials / methods to make more, etc. You have to watch them like a hawk.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

FWIW, here is the text the document sent to my mother. This is it.

We will supply all of the labor and material to remodel xxxxxxx bedroom;
1. Demo the entire bedroom taking out all old cabinetry, ceilings, and walls.
2.Reframe walls for a closet on the north wall one half closet rod for hanging
clothes, and one half shelving for sweaters, linens, etc.
3.Install lighting in the closet.
4.Reinsulate, rewire, and hang new Sheetrock.
5. Finish Sheetrock, prime, and paint.
6. Reuse the trim existing in the room.

The price for the completed project $6,500. With payments made in an
agreement between contractor and homeowner.

All liability insurance is carried with KSB INS. Co.

That's a contract. I'd tell him he gets $6500 or he can take it to court and pay attorney's fees.

I work in the office of a construction subcontractor and our bids go kind of like that and are considered binding.

 

[bhawk24bob]

I'd tell him that if he doesn't get his ass back over there, you'll hire somebody else and take him to small claims to cover the difference in cost. His tone will change quick when he realizes that he's going to lose money if he doesn't finish the product

 

[BABiscuit]

Is your mom a sympathetic old lady? Sounds like a story for Aaron Bilbeck of Who TV.

 

[dgordo]

It wouldn't be worth it for either side to get a lawyer involved for $1500. You'll pay that much just to get a lawyer to do something for you.

.

And this is really the issue. The contractor knows he has you screwed because it will cost more to fight it.

 

[bdg8]

There are people who will make the contractor finish the job and be happy about it. If you know what I mean.

Adam Corrolla?

 

[theiacowtipper]

They are still working on finishing the room and he won't return my calls. As of this second, she has paid him 3500. I have told her to pay him no more than 3000.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

And this is really the issue. The contractor knows he has you screwed because it will cost more to fight it.

Wouldn't he be just as screwed if she refuses to pay and he has to take her to court?

If it really cost him $6,500 in materials and he owns his own business, he should have receipts for all the materials purchased. Ask to see them.

 

[whatsup13579er]

They are still working on finishing the room and he won't return my calls. As of this second, she has paid him 3500. I have told her to pay him no more than 3000.

If they are still working, I wouldn't bother him until the work is completed. Then if he wants to squabble over extra money you don't have to worry about him finishing the job.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Wouldn't he be just as screwed if she refuses to pay and he has to take her to court?

If it really cost him $6,500 in materials and he owns his own business, he should have receipts for all the materials purchased. Ask to see them.

He could potentially file a mechanic's lien on her house, so he would not have to take her to court to inflict some legal "pain" on her. (Note - he could also choose to make a small claim, I am just saying that would not be his only potential legal route.)

My instinct is that the best potential non-legal and less costly resolution is to stand firm and let him know that you are going to spread the word, etc, about his tactics and hopefully that threat will be enough for him to straighten up.

 

[dgordo]

Wouldn't he be just as screwed if she refuses to pay and he has to take her to court?

If it really cost him $6,500 in materials and he owns his own business, he should have receipts for all the materials purchased. Ask to see them.

He could potentially file a mechanic's lien on her house, so he would not have to take her to court to inflict some legal "pain" on her. (Note - he could also choose to make a small claim, I am just saying that would not be his only potential legal route.)

My instinct is that the best potential non-legal and less costly resolution is to stand firm and let him know that you are going to spread the word, etc, about his tactics and hopefully that threat will be enough for him to straighten up.

My understanding is the job has not been completed, so yes he would be out money but like @Old_wrestling_fan said, he can file a lien on her home for lack of payment.

 

[dgordo]

They are still working on finishing the room and he won't return my calls. As of this second, she has paid him 3500. I have told her to pay him no more than 3000.

Regardless of how much you pay him, do not pay the final payment without a final lien waiver.

 

[Tenacious E]

a contractor gave my elderly mother a price for remodeling a bedroom. Includes stripping the walls to the studs, insulating, building a closet, and finishing walls with drywall. Price quoted was 6500, which I thought was high but reasonably fair. The estimate states that the contractor will supply all labor and materials. It outlines everything that is being done, signed by her and him.

He now states that labor was not included in the deal, and wants another 1500. I wouldn't have let her sign this for 8k, as it is out of line for the work. Of course, the room is half finished. What say you HROT?

Does he claim that he was going to spend $6,500 on sheet rock and paint?

 

[86Hawkeye]

a contractor gave my elderly mother a price for remodeling a bedroom. Includes stripping the walls to the studs, insulating, building a closet, and finishing walls with drywall. Price quoted was 6500, which I thought was high but reasonably fair. The estimate states that the contractor will supply all labor and materials. It outlines everything that is being done, signed by her and him.

He now states that labor was not included in the deal, and wants another 1500. I wouldn't have let her sign this for 8k, as it is out of line for the work. Of course, the room is half finished. What say you HROT?

How else can he perform the actions of "stripping the walls to the studs, insulating, building a closet, and finishing walls with drywall" without labor? Sounds to me like the estimate already has labor in it.