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How many innocent people are we ok with the police shooting?

Each year? As long as it’s less than our military losses would that be an acceptable number? Where is the point you decide it’s just the price we pay for living in the US?

Cops need to be reined in. Carte blanche shootings, no knock warrants are violations of citizens rights that give them justification, and in the end, pre-emptive exoneration in courts for their actions, and another symptom of gun fanaticism in our society.

The camo garbed white dudes in Louisville are an example of racism. If a group black camo garbed dudes showed up, the police would have started a war.
 
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Cops need to be reined in. Carte blanche shootings, no knock warrants are violations of citizens rights that give them justification, and in the end, pre-emptive exoneration in courts for their actions, and another symptom of gun fanaticism in our society.

The camo garbed white dudes in Louisville are an example of racism. If a group black camo garbed dudes showed up, the police would have started a war.
not true... there ahve been plenty of black militia group out protesting and not a thing has happened....
 
This is a dumb question meant to get a rise out of the Conservatives on this board. The problem is that this issue has become political, which it should not be. Zero deaths should be the goal for all involved, whether guilty or innocent.

In an ideal world, we would have no crime and the Police Department may not be needed. As we see every day, we do not live in an ideal world, so the Police Department should not be defunded. They do need better training and should be compensated more fairly for the job that they are asked to do. There should also be better oversight to ensure the police are ready for the situations that they are put in and to weed out people who are not fit for the job.

On the flip side, people need to show the police more respect and not make their job more difficult. Our leaders need to understand this and set aside partisan politics and let everyone know that we need to work together to fix this situation.
No, it’s a question to point out that our police kill more of our citizens than nearly all other first world countries combined and some seem ok with that.
The other countries experience crime too, their police are in harms way. But they haven’t been taught to shoot first and ask questions later like we have here.
 
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That's an interesting question. I think we have something like 40 million police interactions a year with citizens. (I had looked it up a while back)

IIRC, we had something around 100-200 unarmed killings by cops last year. Perhaps more if you count people that had an object that appeared to be a gun.

What, realistically, can we expect in the society we live in? In a society with gun toting people? What's a realistic floor number?

I don't know.

I'd like to think we could cut that 100-200 figure down significantly through better training and police.

Of course the trick with that is to do so in a way that doesn't cause an uptick in crime and loss of life elsewhere. (i.e., we could just remove police altogether to rectify this problem, but we'd on balance, be much worse as a society for it)

I think Neil Degrasse Tyson had a good analogy; treat the issue like we do commercial airline safety. We set a very high standard for processes surrounding commercial flight in the US, and any incident is thoroughly investigated and learned from.

I'd be for that. It'd also mean spending lots more money on policing, likely.

Hopefully the grownups dig in on this issue.
But they love killing people bro

I can’t believe some of the dumb ****s on here that can’t understand the vast majority of cops hope to never have to raise their gun

yeah there are worthless cops like Chauvin, but don’t act like all cops go looking to take a life. I would guess for most cops that are put in a position to take a life, it is one of the worst moments of their life
 
No, it’s a question to point out that our police kill more of our citizens than nearly all other first world countries combined and some seem ok with that.
The other countries experience crime too, their police are in harms way. But they haven’t been taught to shoot first and ask questions later like we have here.

That is not how you worded the question. I gave my opinion above and do agree that additional training is needed by our Police Departments. This has turned into an us versus them situation though, which is not going to help either side.
 
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But they love killing people bro

I can’t believe some of the dumb ****s on here that can’t understand the vast majority of cops hope to never have to raise their gun

yeah there are worthless cops like Chauvin, but don’t act like all cops go looking to take a life. I would guess for most cops that are put in a position to take a life, it is one of the worst moments of their life

You need to go read how cops think on Leoaffairs . The contempt a lot of cops have for citizens will surprise you.
 
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American criminals are much more dangerous than those in other countries, which is why foreign police departments manage to not kill so many suspects. Autistic children in the US are scarier and more treacherous than hardened drug traffickers in Brazil. Doubly scary if they are black.

A GED and 3 month academy is all that is required to get most cops on the street with a gun, badge, and the power to shoot people. Should we really be surprised this happens at an alarming rate? Shouldn’t be, especially, when half the country believes they earned it. When the bar of entry is so low, what keeps bad people from becoming cops? And when the system allows dirty cops to stay, then what? Answer: police shootings.

Read about the Stanford Prison Experiment if you want to know about indoctrination and why many cops have an adversarial relationship with the public. Or just read Sgt. Mattingly’s email at LMPD.
 
I guess I’ve been asleep at the wheel. Inhad no idea cops were shooting sunbathers. That does seem unnecessary.
I guess that just leaves the question of which unarmed shootings you think were necessary. 14 year old autistic kid? Simon-says loser in hotel hallway? Child with toy gun? Adult in Walmart buying BB gun?
 
not true... there ahve been plenty of black militia group out protesting and not a thing has happened....

White armed groups with ARs like the ones in Louisville and WI. You have to prove that to me.
 
A GED and 3 month academy is all that is required to get most cops on the street with a gun, badge, and the power to shoot people. Should we really be surprised this happens at an alarming rate? Shouldn’t be, especially, when half the country believes they earned it. When the bar of entry is so low, what keeps bad people from becoming cops? And when the system allows dirty cops to stay, then what? Answer: police shootings.
How many cops would you say are probably not worthy of being in their position? 10%, 25%, half, 3/4?
 
Each year? As long as it’s less than our military losses would that be an acceptable number? Where is the point you decide it’s just the price we pay for living in the US?
On purpose? Don't you need to be clear on this?
 
On purpose? Don't you need to be clear on this?
Does it matter if you kill innocent people on purpose or not? It certainly doesn't to them. What are your numbers for intentional killing of innocent civilians vs unintentional?
 
Don’t break the law,cooperate with the police should help your chances of survival.
 
I realize there's lots of other things that can be addressed for law enforcement, like qualifications, training, different tactics and what not.

But I imagine, similar to school shootings, we're always going to have a lot more shootings of all kinds (school, gang, suicide, police, etc.) than our world peers. It is just a cost of our tremendous gun freedoms that we enjoy due to the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

We get to own lots of guns, relatively easy, we can carry them around, and use them as props at protests, guns are a significant part of the culture in a lot of American communities. That comes with a cost.

To answer the question: I think we're ok with a lot more than the current rate. The WaPo database has about 1,000 killed by police each year, and many of those were likely unavoidable as opposed to innocent.

My guess it would take several times more police killings a year to really move the needle. I mean, we just surpassed 200,000 covid deaths and lots of people are bored or tired of it.
 
I realize there's lots of other things that can be addressed for law enforcement, like qualifications, training, different tactics and what not.

But I imagine, similar to school shootings, we're always going to have a lot more shootings of all kinds (school, gang, suicide, police, etc.) than our world peers. It is just a cost of our tremendous gun freedoms that we enjoy due to the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

We get to own lots of guns, relatively easy, we can carry them around, and use them as props at protests, guns are a significant part of the culture in a lot of American communities. That comes with a cost.

To answer the question: I think we're ok with a lot more than the current rate. The WaPo database has about 1,000 killed by police each year, and many of those were likely unavoidable as opposed to innocent.

My guess it would take several times more police killings a year to really move the needle. I mean, we just surpassed 200,000 covid deaths and lots of people are bored or tired of it.

It's fascinating. People keep demanding a candidate that will get us out of overseas wars but covid has killed more people in the last half year than all our wars except WWII combined and people are like "Let's see some football!!!"
 
It's fascinating. People keep demanding a candidate that will get us out of overseas wars but covid has killed more people in the last half year than all our wars except WWII combined and people are like "Let's see some football!!!"
It's fascinating. There's a virus that is very harmful to some people and you'd think the public should be given real, honest information on who it affects, what the effects are and how many people are affected as these facts are learned so that they are able to make informed decisions for themselves and their family. Instead people are like "200 million people will be dead by the time I'm done talking"
 
It's fascinating. People keep demanding a candidate that will get us out of overseas wars but covid has killed more people in the last half year than all our wars except WWII combined and people are like "Let's see some football!!!"

Politicians are never going to be able to stop a novel virus. Politicians can stop endless wars, however.
 
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Politicians are never going to be able to stop a novel virus. Politicians can stop endless wars, however.
I keep seeing people say this, it's beneath you. No, you can't stop it, but you can mitigate it. We have one of the worst responses to the virus on the planet. That falls on the people running the response.
 
Yeah, I know. Now answer the question.
I think it's with most things...if we, as a society, chose to look into something at the micro-level, we can get enraged about an insurmountable amount of wrongs. How many children are we okay with being human trafficked before we do something? How many muggings, how many innocent people on death row, how many rapes... etc. etc.?

To that I say, there is likely someone, somewhere doing something about it, so find what you're passionate about and align yourself with it and give it your all. So, if the killing of innocent people by police is something you're passionately against, then get involved with an organization that is trying to take action on it. Get involved at whatever level you're capable.

The homeless and underprivileged is our family's passion, so we sponsor several kiddos abroad through a few different organizations and we support one of San Antonio's homeless shelters (on our own, not through an org) each Christmas; ensuring all the kids there are taken care of.
 
I keep seeing people say this, it's beneath you. No, you can't stop it, but you can mitigate it. We have one of the worst responses to the virus on the planet. That falls on the people running the response.

I think we've mitigated it. I agree mistakes have been made. This virus is particularly fatal for old and very unhealthy people. The US has more than its share of those. Though I think masks are overrated, we should continue that effort as well as social distancing.
 
I think it's with most things...if we, as a society, chose to look into something at the micro-level, we can get enraged about an insurmountable amount of wrongs. How many children are we okay with being human trafficked before we do something? How many muggings, how many innocent people on death row, how many rapes... etc. etc.?

To that I say, there is likely someone, somewhere doing something about it, so find what you're passionate about and align yourself with it and give it your all. So, if the killing of innocent people by police is something you're passionately against, then get involved with an organization that is trying to take action on it. Get involved at whatever level you're capable.

The homeless and underprivileged is our family's passion, so we sponsor several kiddos abroad through a few different organizations and we support one of San Antonio's homeless shelters (on our own, not through an org) each Christmas; ensuring all the kids there are taken care of.
So your answer is that this isn't a problem that you care about. We kill more of our people than any other first world country by leaps and bounds, people are protesting in the hundreds of thousands....but meh.
 
I think we've mitigated it. I agree mistakes have been made. This virus is particularly fatal for old and very unhealthy people. The US has more than its share of those. Though I think masks are overrated, we should continue that effort as well as social distancing.
The numbers don't support you. We aren't older than Europe and are younger than many countries that did better.
 
The numbers don't support you. We aren't older than Europe and are younger than many countries that did better.

The demographics of those who've died are consistent across the world.

In the US, 94% of the people who have died have been over 50. Of those who've died, the average number of co-morbidities is around 2.5.

We've done a particularly bad job of protecting the elderly, especially those who are unhealthy.
 
So your answer is that this isn't a problem that you care about. We kill more of our people than any other first world country by leaps and bounds, people are protesting in the hundreds of thousands....but meh.
Of course I care, and you know I care based on your likes of my responses in similarly themed threads; specifically BLM ones. What specifically do you want me (or others in the HROT) to do about it aside from vote accordingly when change policy presents itself? My point is, as with all similar threads, we as individuals can care about a lot of things, but there's only so much we can do.

What are you doing, personally, to help combat trafficking in persons? What are you doing to feed the food insecure? What are you doing to thwart sexual assault. If you say nothing, is it fair for me to say you don't care?

Again, there is an insurmountable amount of horror that goes on in our world, but a human's capacity to deal with it all is very limited. We have jobs, families, personal health, etc., so again, I encourage EVERYONE to find something they are passionate about and get involved...you can't do it all, but all of us can do something.

I'm surprised I have to explain this to you, you've made sure to come across previously as one of the more educated posters.
 
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The demographics of those who've died are consistent across the world.

In the US, 94% of the people who have died have been over 50. Of those who've died, the average number of co-morbidities is around 2.5.

We've done a particularly bad job of protecting the elderly, especially those who are unhealthy.
We've done a bad job. The vulnerable have paid the largest price. We have about 20% of the global deaths with 4.2% of the population.
 
Of course I care, and you know I care based on your likes of my responses in similarly themed threads; specifically BLM ones. What specifically do you want me (or others in the HROT) to do about it aside from vote accordingly when change policy presents itself? My point is, as with all similar threads, we as individuals can care about a lot of things, but there's only so much we can do.

What are you doing, personally, to help combat trafficking in persons? What are you doing to feed the food insecure? What are you doing to thwart sexual assault. If you say nothing, is it fair for me to say you don't care?

Again, there is an insurmountable amount of horror that goes on in our world, but a human's capacity to deal with it all is very limited. We have jobs, families, personal health, etc., so again, I encourage EVERYONE to find something they are passionate about and get involved...you can't do it all, but all of us can do something.

I'm surprised I have to explain this to you, you've made sure to come across previously as one of the more educated posters.
Re-read you previous post. It essentially says there are bad things in the world and is a shoulder shrug after that. Do some things to make you feel better but nothing will change is the message. That's garbage. Our policing problem will only change if people become outraged and demand change. If they elect representatives who are committed to changing the way police are funded, trained, and protected from misdeeds. Look at how any other 1st world police force is run. Ours could be the same if we are willing to demand it.
 
Re-read you previous post. It essentially says there are bad things in the world and is a shoulder shrug after that. Do some things to make you feel better but nothing will change is the message. That's garbage. Our policing problem will only change if people become outraged and demand change. If they elect representatives who are committed to changing the way police are funded, trained, and protected from misdeeds. Look at how any other 1st world police force is run. Ours could be the same if we are willing to demand it.
Well, that wasn't my intention...your OP read as though because it's happening we're all just a-ok with it. I'd venture to say most aren't and to assume otherwise is a false assumption. Typically, people get involved where their heart is. A person is sexually assaulted, they get involved in an out reach program. Your son is kidnapped and killed, you found Americas Most Wanted. I spent a year jobless and pretty much homeless, so my heart is drawn in that direction. Our family gives $8-10K per year in that realm. You seem very passionate about this topic, and I applaud you for it, so my question is what are you doing to support it? If I were to post something about the homeless or food insecure (like you), I'd assume some would ask me what I, personally, am doing about it.

Again, of course I care, but how do I stop it from happening? I certainly am more alert when I see a cop pulling someone over...I slow down, I observe, I check to see if they are a minority and if there is a reason I should maybe stop and take a closer look. I'm listening even more to my AA brothers and sisters in an effort to understand their plight. I've supported those who kneel (as a veteran minority) and have fully supported the removal of all Jim Crow era Civil War monuments. I don't think all cops are evil and want those who are, held accountable. So, yes, I most definitely care.

Also, the killing of innocents isn't limited to just Police, but that of unborn children, those killed by criminals, and those wrongfully sitting on death row. What is the aperture of my care supposed to be, in your opinion?
 
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Re-read you previous post. It essentially says there are bad things in the world and is a shoulder shrug after that. Do some things to make you feel better but nothing will change is the message. That's garbage. Our policing problem will only change if people become outraged and demand change. If they elect representatives who are committed to changing the way police are funded, trained, and protected from misdeeds. Look at how any other 1st world police force is run. Ours could be the same if we are willing to demand it.

Yup. I'd say it should start with demilitarizing the police. I can't say that because there are several other places it could start. Ultimately, a lot of police training starts with officers gaining control of every situation up front. Some are better than others at evaluating if that's even needed. Some are better than others in how they go about that. And some are better than others in dealing with situations that are outside their control.

I like Patrick Swayze's approach in Road House. Be nice. Still be nice.



IMO, training should focus on the very last question in the clip. That's knowing when to not be nice.
 
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