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How permanent daylight saving time would change sunrise and sunset times

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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Imagine waking up before the sun: at 8:30 a.m. or even later.
On Tuesday, the Senate unanimously passed a bill that would keep daylight saving time year-round — giving the nation later sunrises but more evening sunlight during the darkest months of the year. But despite growing support for abolishing semiannual clock changes and making our winter evenings brighter, permanent daylight saving time probably would benefit some parts of the country more than others.

All states except for Arizona and Hawaii observe daylight saving time, with the clocks “springing forward” in early March and “falling back” in early November. If the Senate bill is approved by the House and signed by President Biden, we would set the clocks ahead in March 2023 and then keep them there permanently.

While millions of Americans would no longer complain about switching the clocks — and no doubt many would enjoy more evening daylight in the winter — permanent daylight saving time might end up being a dark wake-up call during the winter months, especially in some parts of the country where the sun already tends to rise late.






No matter where you live in the United States, year-round daylight saving time means the sun would rise and set an hour later than we’re used to from November to March. With daylight shifted toward the evening, most of the nation would see sunset after 5 p.m. around the winter solstice in December. D.C., for example, would see its earliest sunset at 5:45 p.m. (instead of 4:45 p.m.), and the latest sunrise would shift to 8:27 a.m. (from 7:27 a.m.) in early January, according to timeanddate.com.

In some places, keeping the clocks ahead in winter makes a lot of sense, especially in cities such as Boston and Chicago, which lie on the eastern edge of their respective time zones. Much of New England, which experiences some of the earliest sunsets in the country, would experience winter daylight more reasonably, from about 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. instead of 7 a.m. to 4 p.m.

Boston’s earliest sunset would occur at a more work-friendly 5:11 p.m., instead of at 4:11 p.m. Similarly, Chicago and Los Angeles would still have daylight after 5 p.m. in December and January.


No more early sunsets in the 4 o’clock hour, and an extra hour of sunlight for running errands or exercising after work sounds like a no-brainer.
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How permanent daylight saving time would change sunrise and sunset times
How permanent daylight saving time would change sunrise and sunset times

What’s the catch? Well, winter days are inherently short, and keeping the clocks ahead from November to March would mean our mornings would be noticeably darker for several months of the year. In Washington, sunrise would occur after 8 a.m. from around Thanksgiving until Valentine’s Day.

Later sunrises might make sense for residents of Rhode Island, Maine or Massachusetts, where the sun already rises and sets early throughout the year. These states are on the eastern edge of the Eastern time zone, so the sun rises fairly early even in winter. But for people who live in the western edge of a time zone (such as western Indiana, Michigan or North Dakota), year-round daylight saving time would mean very dark mornings for a good portion of the year.
Sleep experts say Senate has it wrong: Standard time, not daylight saving, should be permanent
In Indianapolis, for example, the sun already rises after 8 a.m. around the winter solstice. With permanent daylight saving time, the sun would never set before 6 p.m., but the latest sunrise would occur after 9 a.m. In fact, Indy residents would see sunrise after 8:30 a.m. from mid-November to mid-February if the nation permanently ditches standard time. In Bismarck, N.D., the sun would not rise until almost 9:30 a.m. in December.















(The Washington Post)
Darker and colder winter mornings are one reason the Senate’s “Sunshine Protection Act” supporting permanent daylight saving time might never become law. But, considering all the grumbling we hear each year about switching the clocks back and forth — and the fact that we already observe daylight saving time for eight months of the year — perhaps it’s worth once more experimenting with brighter evenings in the winter, even if it comes at the expense of morning light.

 
Well technically the suns rises and sets at the same time, we just choose the numbers that describe it. It would take a miracle of Biblical proportions to change it...Joshua 10:12-14.
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord on the day when the Lord turned the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, And moon, at the Valley of Aijalon!” 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the Book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hurry to go down for about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the Lord listened to the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
 
Just watch what happens if this actually passes the house I bet in December we will see people complaining on Twitter that Congress promised to protect sunshine and the sun isn't rising until 8:30. I seriously think there are some people who believe that permanent daylight savings means the winter days will be like summer days with the sun rising before work and setting long after quitting time.
 
I agree with this take. Fall back one more time and be done with it.

That would probably be a better choice however you are then in the summer months talking about the sun rising at or before 5 AM.

But this is why switching the clocks makes sense. Ideally you want sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM every day. But there is a roughly 3 hour change in sunrise between the summer solstice and the winter solstice. The only way to keep sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM is to switch the clocks..

If we go off our current time than in the winter months the sun rises too late 9 AM. If we go off the time from Nov to March than in the summer months you see the sun rising before 5 AM.

The only thing I would change about it is that I would fall back an hour in October as opposed to November and I would spring forward an hour in April as opposed to March.

But changing the clocks makes sense.
 
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That would probably be a better choice however you are then in the summer months talking about the sun rising at or before 5 AM.

But this is why switching the clocks makes sense. Ideally you want sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM every day. The only way to make that happen is by switching the clocks.

If we go off our current time than in the winter months the sun rises too late 9 AM. If we go off the time from Nov to March than in the summer months you see the sun rising before 5 AM.

The only thing I would change about it is that I would fall back an hour in October as opposed to November and I would spring forward an hour in April as opposed to March.

But changing the clocks makes sense.
I agree 100%. but if we choose one time, we need to choose a time better for health and natural sleep rather than what is good for corporate America.
 
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That would probably be a better choice however you are then in the summer months talking about the sun rising at or before 5 AM.

But this is why switching the clocks makes sense. Ideally you want sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM every day. The only way to make that happen is by switching the clocks.

If we go off our current time than in the winter months the sun rises too late 9 AM. If we go off the time from Nov to March than in the summer months you see the sun rising before 5 AM.

The only thing I would change about it is that I would fall back an hour in October as opposed to November and I would spring forward an hour in April as opposed to March.

But changing the clocks makes sense.
The Federal law was amended in 1986 to begin Daylight Saving Time on the first Sunday in April. Under legislation enacted in 1986, Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. began at 2:00 a.m. on the first Sunday of April and ended at 2:00 a.m. on the last Sunday of October.
 
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That would probably be a better choice however you are then in the summer months talking about the sun rising at or before 5 AM.

But this is why switching the clocks makes sense. Ideally you want sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM every day. But there is a roughly 3 hour change in sunrise between the summer solstice and the winter solstice. The only way to keep sunrise between 6 AM and 8 AM is to switch the clocks..

If we go off our current time than in the winter months the sun rises too late 9 AM. If we go off the time from Nov to March than in the summer months you see the sun rising before 5 AM.

The only thing I would change about it is that I would fall back an hour in October as opposed to November and I would spring forward an hour in April as opposed to March.

But changing the clocks makes sense.
We used to do that, but congress has continually made the changes earlier with less time for Standard time and more for daylight time.

Edit: see gohawks' post above!
 
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This points out part of the issue for me. I live on the western most edge of the eastern time zone.

I'm so close to the line that I often get my groceries and fill my prescriptions at places located in the central time zone. I routinely cross the time zone line by car.

When my kids go back to school they will be on central time.
 
Move if you don't like it or adjust your schedule. Most people prefer more daylight in the evenings. Really hope this passes and gets signed into law.
 
The Federal law was amended in 1986 to begin Daylight Saving Time on the first Sunday in April. Under legislation enacted in 1986, Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. began at 2:00 a.m. on the first Sunday of April and ended at 2:00 a.m. on the last Sunday of October.

Yeah I remember we used to do that through most of my childhood and young adulthood.
 
I agree 100%. but if we choose one time, we need to choose a time better for health and natural sleep rather than what is good for corporate America.

I'm not sure corporate America cares as long as we all show up for work.

But I for one would rather show up to work when the sun is up than when it's dark. My sleep cycle is heavily determined by the sun. If I'm allowed to sleep as late as I want I will often get up within an hour of the sun coming up.
 
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Yeah I remember we used to do that through most of my childhood and young adulthood.
I liked it especially in October. The time change allowed for children to do their spooky Halloween trick or treating in the dark, but still go to bed at their usual times.
 
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I liked it especially in October. The time change allowed for children to do their spooky Halloween trick or treating in the dark, but still go to bed at their usual times.

You know I had never thought about that but I remember when I was a kid we did trick or treat in the dark but my kids always go in the daylight.

Now as a parent I have to say I kind of prefer the daylight because it makes it easier to track my kids.
 
I love topics like this because I'm too stupid to have an opinion. Someone tell me which way to think and I'm on board.
 
This points out part of the issue for me. I live on the western most edge of the eastern time zone.

I'm so close to the line that I often get my groceries and fill my prescriptions at places located in the central time zone. I routinely cross the time zone line by car.

When my kids go back to school they will be on central time.
Currently it would push sunrise back to 0800-0830 during the shortest daylight months in Albuquerque . My oldest starts preschool at 0900 and I would rather have the extra hour in the evening for after school activities such as playing at the park, backyard etc. Selfishly it opens up the possibility for more golf, cooking out at night and so on.

I am moving in June to Alabama. I will be living on the eastern edge of the central time zone in a southern state so for the time I am there I will be all for it. If I ever moved back to a northern state my opinion might change but currently I am in the camp of pick standard or savings and stick with it.
 
I just don’t understand why it matters if it’s dark or light driving to work in the morning. I’m an outlier in that I get to decide my schedule so if I want to sleep until 9 I can. I can see daylight every day because I’m home and not stuck in some cubicle. Ultimately I don’t care if they change it, leave it, go with standard time. But if I had to choose between dark when I went to work or dark when I came home I’d choose dark in the morning every single time.
 
Currently it would push sunrise back to 0800-0830 during the shortest daylight months in Albuquerque . My oldest starts preschool at 0900 and I would rather have the extra hour in the evening for after school activities such as playing at the park, backyard etc. Selfishly it opens up the possibility for more golf, cooking out at night and so on.

I am moving in June to Alabama. I will be living on the eastern edge of the central time zone in a southern state so for the time I am there I will be all for it. If I ever moved back to a northern state my opinion might change but currently I am in the camp of pick standard or savings and stick with it.

See that's the issue. In the winter months this pushes sunrise back to 9 AM or later. And I'm going to be dog tired trying to drag myself out of bed 3 hours before sunrise.
 
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I just don’t understand why it matters if it’s dark or light driving to work in the morning. I’m an outlier in that I get to decide my schedule so if I want to sleep until 9 I can. I can see daylight every day because I’m home and not stuck in some cubicle. Ultimately I don’t care if they change it, leave it, go with standard time. But if I had to choose between dark when I went to work or dark when I came home I’d choose dark in the morning every single time.

So your sleep cycle isn't at all affected by the sun?

Because mine is certainly affected by the sun. If I can sleep in I usually wake up within an hour or less of the sun rising.

I also have a harder time going to sleep earlier in the summer.
 
Just wait until the pearl-clutching soccer moms have to send their kids walking to school in the dark. It will be SO dangerous having them cross streets in the dark, by themselves. I'm sure they'll be run over en masse.

wont-somebody-please-think-of-the-children.gif
 
Well technically the suns rises and sets at the same time, we just choose the numbers that describe it. It would take a miracle of Biblical proportions to change it...Joshua 10:12-14.
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord on the day when the Lord turned the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, And moon, at the Valley of Aijalon!” 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the Book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hurry to go down for about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the Lord listened to the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
Day has been growing in length since the formation of the moon.


We can measure the speed of the Moon's retreat — reflective panels on the Moon allow for fine calibrations that show that it's currently moving away one to two centimetres a year.
We also know that the spin of the Earth is slowing.
"The spin down rate is very slow," says Dr Mardling, "It's about two milliseconds per century."
"So the Earth's day is getting longer by a 500th of a second every century.
 
So your sleep cycle isn't at all affected by the sun?

Because mine is certainly affected by the sun. If I can sleep in I usually wake up within an hour or less of the sun rising.

I also have a harder time going to sleep earlier in the summer.
No. I have blackout curtains. We’ve had them since my husband worked overnight
 
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No. I have blackout curtains. We’ve had them since my husband worked overnight
This. We have blinds with blackout curtains. In my forever house I will consider rolladens or rolling shutters. I had them in Germany and I slept great. Absolutely no daylight getting through at all.
 
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Day has been growing in length since the formation of the moon.


We can measure the speed of the Moon's retreat — reflective panels on the Moon allow for fine calibrations that show that it's currently moving away one to two centimetres a year.
We also know that the spin of the Earth is slowing.
"The spin down rate is very slow," says Dr Mardling, "It's about two milliseconds per century."
"So the Earth's day is getting longer by a 500th of a second every century.
 
I'm up at 530am and it's dark. I'm on the road about 615am and it's dark in the winter months. Kids seem to be just fine in the dark. Hell, most younger kids take a bus or seem like parents drop them off. Very few walk to school anymore.
 
So your sleep cycle isn't at all affected by the sun?

Because mine is certainly affected by the sun. If I can sleep in I usually wake up within an hour or less of the sun rising.

I also have a harder time going to sleep earlier in the summer.
Mine is not affected at all by the sun. Never even thought about that.
 
Why not adjust your schedule instead? No reason you can't work summer hours of 6:00-2:30 and have all that daytime after work.
I have and can. No issue. But now I won't have to when this passes. So looks like you and every other whiny little baby about this will have to.
 
What may happen is that schools/jobs/activities adjust to later times in the winter to avoid starting in the dark and the gains will be moot.
Exactly all that after work family time in the sun will be lost if schools change their start time.
 
This points out part of the issue for me. I live on the western most edge of the eastern time zone.

I'm so close to the line that I often get my groceries and fill my prescriptions at places located in the central time zone. I routinely cross the time zone line by car.

When my kids go back to school they will be on central time.
My Son lives in the Valpo area, in central. Not sure why the didn't make it at the state line. I'm on the western edge of central about 20 miles from mountain. I'd rathe see us move to mountain than have the sunrise at 9AM or later. Having it dark till midway through second period for the kids is kinda stupid.
 
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