I saw a smoking hot woman in church this morning

NPRLover

HR Legend
Oct 20, 2003
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I did not answer because this truly doesn't have anything to do with the thread title.

That is answer, but not a very good one.

But I guess all we need to do is start a thread on that topic and your views will be made known?

If not, you could be a bit dishonest.
 

BrewHawk

HR Heisman
Jul 21, 2004
7,368
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Lucas, TX
I get such a kick out of these threads where someone tells someone else what to belive and how to practice that belief.

"My way is the right way and if you're wrong you're going to hell." Whatever makes you feel better, Bubba.

Guess I'm going to hell then too. Damn. In the meantime I'll try to be a good person and live a productive life to try to help my fellow man. Hope that's good enough for the God I believe in.

All that ends up happening is a neverending circle of debate that doesn't accomplish a single thing, but it does make for some good entertainment, especially when NPR gets you guys chasing wild geese and your own tails (is that considered adultry too?)

In the meantime, Loog, keep living life. If you feel guilty about something bad you do/did then great, and if not then that's your business and I still hope you don't burn in hell for it.
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
3
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
That is answer, but not a very good one.


It's a great answer because it's the truth. The truth of why I didn't and the truth about you. Are you denying you were trying to antagonize again?

Originally posted by NPRLover:
But I guess all we need to do is start a thread on that topic and your views will be made known?

If not, you could be a bit dishonest.

I may choose not to engage in that threat. That would not be a bit dishonest. I may feel it's a fruitless discussion and not worthy of my time at the moment. Or I may answer.
 

NPRLover

HR Legend
Oct 20, 2003
25,729
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All that ends up happening is a neverending circle of debate that doesn't accomplish a single thing, but it does make for some good entertainment, especially when NPR gets you guys chasing wild geese and your own tails (is that considered adultry too?)


I've had quite a bit of experience with their type. It all stems from their refusal to accept that reasonable people may have differing interpretations of scripture. I also don't care for their high-handed judgmental approach and like it even less when they attribute their behavior to Jesus.

That is, imo, not the true message of Christ.

We have always had, and always will have, sects that somehow get their sense of righteousness from their perceived othodox rigor, i.e., the more severe their interpretation the more holy they are. You can see it in the Old Testamant. They are just a modern day version of that. It's got a psychological basis for it, I'm convinced. But that's not saying anything new.
This post was edited on 4/28 12:19 PM by NPRLoverif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 

NPRLover

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Oct 20, 2003
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Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by NPRLover:
That is answer, but not a very good one.




It's a great answer because it's the truth. The truth of why I didn't and the truth about you. Are you denying you were trying to antagonize again?


Originally posted by NPRLover:
But I guess all we need to do is start a thread on that topic and your views will be made known?

If not, you could be a bit dishonest.



I may choose not to engage in that threat. That would not be a bit dishonest. I may feel it's a fruitless discussion and not worthy of my time at the moment. Or I may answer.


Would you mind reposting the article about the fishing reel embedded in the "30-year old" rock found in Tennessee?

That was a good one; even better were the comments made about the professor who "studied" the grand evidence of a young earth.

Which brings me to another of my pet peeves: marginal people posting marginal stories (Ica stones anyone) and insisting that these stories proved - what exactly I don't know. Biblical infallability? That their view of scripture is what the "true believer" holds?

Maybe you could tell us which of the two creation myths you believe in Genesis?
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
I've had quite a bit of experience with thier type. It all stems from their refusal to accept that reasonable people may have differing interpretations of scripture. I also don't care for their high-handed judgmental approach and like it even less when they attribute their behavior to Jesus.

No, you are incorrect. It stems from something different. It's a refusal to accept the Scriptures say two things or more at once, that what it says is merely subjective to the reader.

Originally posted by NPRLover:
We have always had, and always will have, sects that somehow get their sense of righteousness from their perceived othodox rigor,... It's got a psychological basis for it, I'm convinced. But that's not saying anything new.

And we will always have (as prophesied) those antagnosists who mock and try to find fault with simple true believers. They have their roll to play and they play it marvelously. I'm convinced there is a psychological basis for that, too.

Jude 17-19
17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
3
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
Would you mind reposting the article about the fishing reel embedded in the "30-year old" rock found in Tennessee?

That was a good one; even better were the comments made about the professor who "studied" the grand evidence of a young earth.

Which brings me to another of my pet peeves: marginal people posting marginal stories (Ica stones anyone) and insisting that these stories proved - what exactly I don't know. Biblical infallability? That their view of scripture is what the "true believer" holds?

Maybe you could tell us which of the two creation myths you believe in Genesis?
It is apparent that you believe I am some former poster. I don't mind you believing that at all. I guess I could tell you whether I am not or if I actually am. But I am not going to say a word. I find it rather entertaining. I also find this predictable. I can tell what happened with him/her. He/she told you some truths from Scripture. You really couldn't argue with him/her or antagonize him/her in it so your next logical step, being the antagonist you are, is to attack the text he/she uses. The old bait and switch routine.

I'm not going for it.
This post was edited on 4/28 12:39 PM by XLargeHawkif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
They have their roll to play and they play it marvelously.

That's how I role.
Hey, you found a mistake. The edit button is gone from my posts.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

HR Legend
Jan 30, 2002
13,300
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XL,

Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways. Actually, this has been quite helpful I now understand that there are at least TWO requirements that I must fulfill in order to get to Heaven. First, I must believe that Jesus died on the cross for me. Second, I must eliminate all continuous, willful sin from my life, as you have done. As of right now, I will no longer engage in any continuous or willful sins. However, I have a couple of follow-up questions.

1. Are there also any requirements in terms of good works? For instance, I go to church every Sunday, and I hear the message, but sometimes I never really feel like I'm taking enough action. I'm not out there feeding the poor, or handing out pamphlets on the street corner -- and I really don't help with the volunteer projects at church. I always find a way to get out of it when they ask for somebody to help mow the lawn. Is this gonna keep me out of heaven?

2. I understand that I may still occasionally sin, but how do I know for sure whether or not it's a continuous, willful sin, as opposed to an ordinary, everday sin? You have pointed out that I need to repent, and that if I have truly repented, then I will quit doing the sin. Well, I do have a little problem with taking the Lord's name in vain. I have vowed to try very hard to stop doing this. But let's say that I slip up from time to time -- e.g. let's say that maybe once every month or so I slip up in the heat of the moment, and I use a swear word. Obviously, I can't then say that I have truly eliminated all willful, continuous sin -- as you have done -- because I haven't really quit doing the sin! Thus, it appears that it is very important for me to never slip up again with regard to my cursing problem, because my salvation depends on it.

3. Also, you have convinced me of the importance of judging other believers. Now, there are a large number of overweight men in my congregation, and I have noticed that they LOVE food. They talk about the buffet at Golden Corral the same way that I used to (before you healed me) talk about the beauty of the female form. Also, when we have church socials, I flat-out see these guys overeating. Some of them are at least 50 lbs overweight, and they're going back for heaping seconds and thirds. And it almost seems like they're proud of it. How should I confront them? Should I pull out the big guns right away -- like you did with me -- and tell them never to enter the church again UNTIL they have repented? Should I confront them one-by-one, in private, or should I just get on the loudspeaker and do it all at once?

4. Lastly, there are a lot of non-Christians that I see living sinful lives. My neighbor is living in sin with another woman. Should I confront him, and let him know that he's going to Hell if he doesn't change his ways and make an honest woman out of her?

Thanks for all your help. I'm a changed man.

Loog
 

WB03

HR All-American
Nov 12, 2002
4,611
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Did you just "willfully" mock the doctrine of repentence?
If you willfully mock something, but that which you are mocking is the actual thing which saves you, are you completely screwed?
Sorry, I'm a wee bit of an antagonist myself.
 
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Hawk-A-Loogey

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Originally posted by WB03:
Did you just "willfully" mock the doctrine of repentence?
If you willfully mock something, but that which you are mocking is the actual thing which saves you, are you completely screwed?
Sorry, I'm a wee bit of an antagonist myself.

I did not mock -- willfully or unwillfully -- anything! XL has simply been very convincing, and I am now considering renouncing my Lutheran religion and converting to fundamentalism. The first step is for me to eliminate all continuous or willful sin from my life -- as XL has done. Then, I can start passing judgment on others. XL has taught me the importance of judging and criticizing others for their own good. The medicine that he gave me was bitter, but it healed me.
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL,

Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways.
The content of your post would indicate you are lying. If you are not then please let me know and we can continue.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

HR Legend
Jan 30, 2002
13,300
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Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL,

Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways.
The content of your post would indicate you are lying. If you are not then please let me know and we can continue.

XL -- I am seriously looking to you for spiritual guidance.
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:

Originally posted by XLargeHawk:


Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL,

Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways.
The content of your post would indicate you are lying. If you are not then please let me know and we can continue.

XL -- I am seriously looking to you for spiritual guidance.

tell me if it was a lie or not.
This post was edited on 4/28 1:38 PM by XLargeHawkif(GetAdminCookie() != 0) {document.write(' (Revisions[/URL])');}
 

NPRLover

HR Legend
Oct 20, 2003
25,729
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36
You know, if you have any homo tendencies he can probably cure you of those.

Talk him into giving you a packaged deal.
 

DEREK02

HR Legend
Jun 20, 2003
12,939
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I've often thought about the aforementioned topic in light of only 20% of Catholics regularly attending Mass. We need some smoking hot girls in skirts to draw fallen away Catholics back to the faith. I'm dead serious about this. Put them in the from few pews in the church.
 
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XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
I already did! I'm not lying, I'm looking to you for spiritual guidance.

Hmmmm. You may have to take way "The biggest lie in the history of internet bulletin boards" from cyclone junkie in your sig line.

You said, Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways. Actually, this has been quite helpful I now understand that there are at least TWO requirements that I must fulfill in order to get to Heaven. First, I must believe that Jesus died on the cross for me. Second, I must eliminate all continuous, willful sin from my life, as you have done. As of right now, I will no longer engage in any continuous or willful sins. However, I have a couple of follow-up questions.

The demons believe these things but at least shudder. There are not two requirements. There is only one true requirement. We are saved by grace through faith. What "faith" entails, however, is larger than you think and differs according to the individual. There are many things under the umbrella of faith. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. If you had done so you would not brazenly go off into your bathroom and masturbate to another man's wife (probably your sister in Christ). You loved something more at that moment.

You then said, 1. Are there also any requirements in terms of good works? For instance, I go to church every Sunday, and I hear the message, but sometimes I never really feel like I'm taking enough action. I'm not out there feeding the poor, or handing out pamphlets on the street corner -- and I really don't help with the volunteer projects at church. I always find a way to get out of it when they ask for somebody to help mow the lawn. Is this gonna keep me out of heaven?

Good works only prove there is faith. If there are no good works then there is no faith, and therefore one can't be saved by grace through faith.

James 2:14-20
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, ÒDepart in peace, be warmed and filled,Ó but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, ÒYou have faith, and I have works.Ó Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeÑand tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

People then ask, "How much faith do I need?" People have varying degrees of faith. There is no certain level required by all. The longer we are in the faith the more that is required of us. The amount of faith one has more determines the blessings/privileges they have in their life, rather than whether they are saved or not. Those with more faith have more spiritual victories, confidence, and happiness. Those with less have more defeats, worries, and problems. It doesn't mean they're lost.

God sees things the church people never will. God will judge you in the end. You could have countless good works and fool many people into thinking you're walking the walk. But he knows why you truly do what you do. You know if you're trying to do the right thing or the wrong thing. What are you intentions? Are you continuing in sin thinking grace will increase? One can fool us, but one can't fool God.

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to him who knows the right/good thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

You then said, 2. I understand that I may still occasionally sin, but how do I know for sure whether or not it's a continuous, willful sin, as opposed to an ordinary, everday sin? You have pointed out that I need to repent, and that if I have truly repented, then I will quit doing the sin. Well, I do have a little problem with taking the Lord's name in vain. I have vowed to try very hard to stop doing this. But let's say that I slip up from time to time -- e.g. let's say that maybe once every month or so I slip up in the heat of the moment, and I use a swear word. Obviously, I can't then say that I have truly eliminated all willful, continuous sin -- as you have done -- because I haven't really quit doing the sin! Thus, it appears that it is very important for me to never slip up again with regard to my cursing problem, because my salvation depends on it.

One man sins and beats his chest in shame. He hates the sins he performs and had decided to eliminate it. He doesn't want to have an outburst of anger, but he ended up doing that which he hated. He was saying things almost before he realized it. A month later he does it again, but his conscience is not seared. He is determined to follow his master. He is in repentance. Repentance is not perfection, but a turning of direction. He knows he's on a different path. His old actions are becoming aberrations, rather than the norm. It's just not him anymore.

Another man feels the urge to have an outburst of anger and then realizes he can stop it. But he, in rebellion, knowingly decides to let them have it anyway. He simply loved the satisfaction of the outburst more than he loved God. He then does the same thing the next day. Soon his conscience is seared and it's "just him." I don't believe the Scripture says the second man's sins are covered as he has decided to stay in that sin. His true love has been exposed. He who practices sin is of the Devil, as John the apostle says.

You then said, 3. Also, you have convinced me of the importance of judging other believers. Now, there are a large number of overweight men in my congregation, and I have noticed that they LOVE food. They talk about the buffet at Golden Corral the same way that I used to (before you healed me) talk about the beauty of the female form. Also, when we have church socials, I flat-out see these guys overeating. Some of them are at least 50 lbs overweight, and they're going back for heaping seconds and thirds. And it almost seems like they're proud of it. How should I confront them? Should I pull out the big guns right away -- like you did with me -- and tell them never to enter the church again UNTIL they have repented? Should I confront them one-by-one, in private, or should I just get on the loudspeaker and do it all at once?

The actions of Christians judge them. Others can see the actions and God's revealed judgment on such actions. If it is obvious then it must be dealt with. I would not pull the alleged "big gun" out on them like I did you, unless, however, they were as arrogant as you were about it and openly shaming. Some people need a "slap" the way Peter did to Simon the magician. The people you mentioned are not just mere acquaintances on message boards; you know them. I would go to them in private and ask them if they understand what gluttony is. Maybe they don't know. Are they mastered by food, as the apostle Paul taught against? Do they eat to live or do they live to eat? Do they feel what they're doing is the right thing to do? If they feel they can be gluttons, then they've wrong. If they don't feel it is right then it is sin to them as per James.

I've never read that being overweight is a sin. I think that is because "What is overweight?" It is a sin to be mastered by something other than the Master. Since we have no clear Scriptural fact sheet on the matter then it is obviously a matter of opinion. Often these sins will lead to more obvious ones. Is it ruining their health so they cannot support their family? That's worse than being an unbeliever. Is it ruining their example to others? That's called a sin, too.

It's kind of like smoking. I have found almost all Christians in our church give up smoking because they all eventually believe it is not the good thing to do. It ruins their example, it wastes money, it's not good for their health, and it doesn't do anything good. Once they think that then they must stop, because according to James it is then sin.

You're probably noticing there is not clear lines on some things, and that is bothersome. However, that's the way it is supposed to be. Life is a test. Also, most of Christianity is not made up of laws. It's not about law following, but truly loving God and being a true disciple. It's doing the right thing. It is to be taken seriously. That's why the next verse is so important.

Philippians 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

You finally said, 4. Lastly, there are a lot of non-Christians that I see living sinful lives. My neighbor is living in sin with another woman. Should I confront him, and let him know that he's going to Hell if he doesn't change his ways and make an honest woman out of her?

He's going to Hell if he's not a Christian. You can always share your faith with him. If he doesn't want to listen then don't give it to him. If he's not a Christian it's not your responsibility to judge, that is, take action on the outsider. Leave him alone and set a good example.
 

XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by NPRLover:
You know, if you have any homo tendencies he can probably cure you of those.

Talk him into giving you a packaged deal.
Should you really use "homo" and "package" in the same thought?
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

HR Legend
Jan 30, 2002
13,300
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So is there such a thing as "assurance of salvation"? You have pointed out that people have different "degrees of faith". As an example, let's consider two Christians, Tom and Harry. Both Tom and Harry truly believe that their sins are forgiven because of the sacrifice that Christ made for them on the cross.

Both Tom and Harry go to church on Sunday, and they both try to avoid sin. But Tom tries a lot harder than Harry. That is, Tom is much better at resisting temptation than Harry. When they go to church to confess their sins on Sunday, they are both contrite and repentant, but Harry always has a much bigger list to report than Tom.

Also, both Tom and Harry do good works, but Tom accomplishes much more than Harry. Tom has a much bigger list of good works at the end of each week.

Both Tom and Harry truly believe that they are acceptable to God because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Assuming they persist in this belief until the day of their death, can they both rest assured that they will be going to Heaven?
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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You still there, XL? Let me further clarify my latest question, in case it was confusing.

Let's assume that both Tom and Harry have completely eliminated continuous and willful sin from their lives -- as you have done. Yet, they will continue to commit new sins, because they aren't perfect. And let's suppose that we are somehow able to attach a "sin-o-meter" to each of their arms -- and that this device counts every sinful thought, word, and deed that they have committed during the week.

Also, on the other arm, we are somehow able to attach a "good works counter", which tabulates every good or charitable deed that they undertake and complete during the week.

On average, Tom finishes each week of his life with 33.5 sins and 11.6 good works. Harry averages 51.9 sins and 4.2 good works. Every Sunday, both Tom and Harry report to church and confess their sins. They are both truly contrite and repentant, and they both truly believe that their sins are forgiven because of the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross.

Assuming that they both persist for their whole life in the belief that their sins are forgiven through Christ, can they both rest assured that they will be going to Heaven?
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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Jan 30, 2002
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
You still there, XL? Let me further clarify my latest question, in case it was confusing.

Let's assume that both Tom and Harry have completely eliminated continuous and willful sin from their lives -- as you have done. Yet, they will continue to commit new sins, because they aren't perfect. And let's suppose that we are somehow able to attach a "sin-o-meter" to each of their arms -- and that this device counts every sinful thought, word, and deed that they have committed during the week.

Also, on the other arm, we are somehow able to attach a "good works counter", which tabulates every good or charitable deed that they undertake and complete during the week.

On average, Tom finishes each week of his life with 33.5 sins and 11.6 good works. Harry averages 51.9 sins and 4.2 good works. Every Sunday, both Tom and Harry report to church and confess their sins. They are both truly contrite and repentant, and they both truly believe that their sins are forgiven because of the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross.

Assuming that they both persist for their whole life in the belief that their sins are forgiven through Christ, can they both rest assured that they will be going to Heaven?

XL? Where did my spiritual adviser go?

The funny thing about most alleged fundamentalists -- like XL -- is that they actually have no idea what they really believe! The religious principles that XL is advocating in this thread are actually much closer to Roman Catholicism than any type of Protestant branch. Except that he has also infused his RC-leanings with a very unhealthy dose of self-confidence and harsh judgment toward others.

I think XL would be genuinely surprised to learn that as a fundie, not only does he believe in the doctrine of "assurance of salvation", but he also believes in the doctrine of "once saved, always saved". That is, once you've "accepted" that altar call, you can't possibly lose your salvation.

XL, what type or denomination of church do you attend? On the basis of your obsession with criticizing and judging others, I assume that you belong to a fundie church. That's fine. But do me a favor: go to your pastor and ask him (or her) if the church believes in the doctrines of "assurance of salvation" and "once saved, always saved". And then try to reconcile that to your other remarks in this thread.

Reg's,

Loog
 

PipeDaddy

HR Legend
Dec 24, 2003
17,808
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
You still there, XL? Let me further clarify my latest question, in case it was confusing.

Let's
assume that both Tom and Harry have completely eliminated continuous
and willful sin from their lives -- as you have done. Yet, they will
continue to commit new sins, because they aren't perfect. And let's
suppose that we are somehow able to attach a "sin-o-meter" to each of
their arms -- and that this device counts every sinful thought, word,
and deed that they have committed during the week.

Also, on the
other arm, we are somehow able to attach a "good works counter", which
tabulates every good or charitable deed that they undertake and
complete during the week.

On average, Tom finishes each week
of his life with 33.5 sins and 11.6 good works. Harry averages 51.9
sins and 4.2 good works. Every Sunday, both Tom and Harry report to
church and confess their sins. They are both truly contrite and
repentant, and they both truly believe that their sins are forgiven
because of the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross.

Assuming
that they both persist for their whole life in the belief that their
sins are forgiven through Christ, can they both rest assured that they
will be going to Heaven?

XL? Where did my spiritual adviser go?

The
funny thing about most alleged fundamentalists -- like XL -- is that
they actually have no idea what they really believe! The religious
principles that XL is advocating in this thread are actually much
closer to Roman Catholicism than any type of Protestant branch. Except
that he has also infused his RC-leanings with a very unhealthy dose of
self-confidence and harsh judgment toward others.

I think XL
would be genuinely surprised to learn that as a fundie, not only does
he believe in the doctrine of "assurance of salvation", but he also
believes in the doctrine of "once saved, always saved". That is, once
you've "accepted" that altar call, you can't possibly lose your
salvation.

XL, what type or denomination of church do you
attend? On the basis of your obsession with criticizing and judging
others, I assume that you belong to a fundie church. That's fine. But
do me a favor: go to your pastor and ask him (or her) if the church
believes in the doctrines of "assurance of salvation" and "once saved,
always saved". And then try to reconcile that to your other remarks in
this thread.

Reg's,

Loog

I don't really even want to touch this thread, but for the life of me I can't figure out how you can honestly try to have an honest discussion about religion/faith after the initial post. So I'm guessing this whole four pages is nothing but messing around. That's fine, but I'm just calling the charade what it is. And hoping that XL picks up on it and saves his energy for a more serious thread.
 
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XLargeHawk

HR All-State
Feb 16, 2006
851
3
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
So is there such a thing as "assurance of salvation"? You have pointed out that people have different "degrees of faith". As an example, let's consider two Christians, Tom and Harry. Both Tom and Harry truly believe that their sins are forgiven because of the sacrifice that Christ made for them on the cross.

Both Tom and Harry go to church on Sunday, and they both try to avoid sin. But Tom tries a lot harder than Harry. That is, Tom is much better at resisting temptation than Harry. When they go to church to confess their sins on Sunday, they are both contrite and repentant, but Harry always has a much bigger list to report than Tom.

Also, both Tom and Harry do good works, but Tom accomplishes much more than Harry. Tom has a much bigger list of good works at the end of each week.

Both Tom and Harry truly believe that they are acceptable to God because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Assuming they persist in this belief until the day of their death, can they both rest assured that they will be going to Heaven?

You keep returning to a philosophy that as long as people believe they are saved, then they are saved. That is not necessarily true.

In the above scenario you're making it some sort of contest. People are saved if they're waling in the light instead of the darkness. A person who is a Christian for 24 hours has far less to be accountable to than the person who has been a Christian for 24 years.

Let's take you, for example. You're in a position where you even write info for Lutheran manuals. You're no newcomer. For you to unashamedly announce and practice this abomination of yours is walking in the darkness.
 

XLargeHawk

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Feb 16, 2006
851
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
The funny thing about most alleged fundamentalists -- like XL -- is that they actually have no idea what they really believe! The religious principles that XL is advocating in this thread are actually much closer to Roman Catholicism than any type of Protestant branch. Except that he has also infused his RC-leanings with a very unhealthy dose of self-confidence and harsh judgment toward others

Reg's,

Loog
I know exactly what I believe and exactly where I got it from. It has nothing to do with Catholicism. And if you call it harsh judgment to declare what you do is wrong, then so be it. I would call it what Christ called it, that is, righteous judgment.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
I think XL would be genuinely surprised to learn that as a fundie, not only does he believe in the doctrine of "assurance of salvation", but he also believes in the doctrine of "once saved, always saved". That is, once you've "accepted" that altar call, you can't possibly lose your salvation.
This is the opposite of what I believe. I don't believe in "once saved always saved" and I don't believe in altar calls. I absolutely believe one can lose their salvation. How can you conclude otherwise from reading my posts? Didn't I give in the scenarios that one guy's sins would be covered and the other's not?

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL, what type or denomination of church do you attend? On the basis of your obsession with criticizing and judging others, I assume that you belong to a fundie church. That's fine. But do me a favor: go to your pastor and ask him (or her) if the church believes in the doctrines of "assurance of salvation" and "once saved, always saved". And then try to reconcile that to your other remarks in this thread.

Reg's,

Loog
I am just a Christian. I don't belong to any denomination. My previous comments are perfectly compatible with believing that one can lose salvation.
 

XLargeHawk

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Feb 16, 2006
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Originally posted by PipeDaddy:
I don't really even want to touch this thread, but for the life of me I can't figure out how you can honestly try to have an honest discussion about religion/faith after the initial post. So I'm guessing this whole four pages is nothing but messing around. That's fine, but I'm just calling the charade what it is. And hoping that XL picks up on it and saves his energy for a more serious thread.
I would agree. I've already stated that he should change his sig line. He has this line about the biggest lie in the history of the message boards. His statement that I'm his spiritual advisor and he's a "new man" certainly tops whatever cyclone junkie said.
 

XLargeHawk

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Feb 16, 2006
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL? Where did my spiritual adviser go?
I spent the last half of Friday afternoon and the entire evening helping a brother in the church move. I thought it was the good thing to do.
 

Iza*

HR Legend
Feb 21, 2004
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I took my boy to his little league practice last night, and there were no dads in sight. Well except for one goober. Me. Anyway, there I was sitting on the bleachers, conversely with 3 blonde mothers. One is a sweet and sexy teacher. Another is weird, introverted, but pretty hot. The 3rd had a bad face, but she's got a great body. I felt a little spoiled, making small talk. And no, I didn't rub one out, but I did think to myself, WWLD, in honor of Loogey.

Everyman deserves to be teased with the musk of forbidden sexual fruit from time to time. It's almost like hitting the "reset" button.

PS - the hottest one (the teacher) and I were talking about her boy, who is a timid on the field. She asked me what I thought they could do to toughen him up a little. I wanted to tell her that her husband needed to quit shouting him down every game (he's a real nice guy, but trying to relive his childhood through this shell of a boy), but I just stared at her boobs instead. I don't think she'll be asking me for any pointers anytime soon.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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Jan 30, 2002
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Originally posted by XLargeHawk:

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
So is there such a thing as "assurance of salvation"? You have pointed out that people have different "degrees of faith". As an example, let's consider two Christians, Tom and Harry. Both Tom and Harry truly believe that their sins are forgiven because of the sacrifice that Christ made for them on the cross.

Both Tom and Harry go to church on Sunday, and they both try to avoid sin. But Tom tries a lot harder than Harry. That is, Tom is much better at resisting temptation than Harry. When they go to church to confess their sins on Sunday, they are both contrite and repentant, but Harry always has a much bigger list to report than Tom.

Also, both Tom and Harry do good works, but Tom accomplishes much more than Harry. Tom has a much bigger list of good works at the end of each week.

Both Tom and Harry truly believe that they are acceptable to God because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Assuming they persist in this belief until the day of their death, can they both rest assured that they will be going to Heaven?

You keep returning to a philosophy that as long as people believe they are saved, then they are saved. That is not necessarily true.

In the above scenario you're making it some sort of contest. People are saved if they're waling in the light instead of the darkness. A person who is a Christian for 24 hours has far less to be accountable to than the person who has been a Christian for 24 years.

Let's take you, for example. You're in a position where you even write info for Lutheran manuals. You're no newcomer. For you to unashamedly announce and practice this abomination of yours is walking in the darkness.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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XL,

So you don't belong to any denomination? Other than "Christian"? It certainly appears that your unique brand of theology is much, much closer to Roman Catholicism than anything Protestant. The only thing missing is the Hail Mary's and the Pope.

1. You claim to have completely eliminated all continuous and willful sin from your life. This is silly. Everyone on this planet will sin continuously and willfully for their entire lives. It's continuous because it never stops. It's willful because we choose to do it. No one makes us sin ("The Devil made me do it" doesn't work).

You claim that if one truly repents, then one stops committing the sin. OK, then how come you are still sinning at all? None of these sins that you are committing are "repeat offenses"?

2. You refused to answer my hypothetical question. It's a simple question. Assume that both of these guys have eliminated what you're calling "continuous and willful" sin. And they both have faith that there sins are forgiven. But they have an unequal quantity of sins committed and good works done. Can they both rest assured that they're going to Heaven? Is there such a thing as assurance of salvation?
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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Jan 30, 2002
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In the above scenario you're making it some sort of contest. People are saved if they're waling in the light instead of the darkness. A person who is a Christian for 24 hours has far less to be accountable to than the person who has been a Christian for 24 years.

Also, this statement leads me to believe that you have a rigidly, almost fanatical, works-based view of salvation.

So you're saying that when we get to the pearly gates, we are going to be accountable for our lives. We're gonna have to answer for our sins and our testify to our good works. And the longer that we've been Christian, the more of these good works are going to be expected. If that's the case, then I would not advise anyone to convert to Christianity until they're close to death, so that the bar for salvation will be lower.
 

XLargeHawk

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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL,

So you don't belong to any denomination? Other than "Christian"? It certainly appears that your unique brand of theology is much, much closer to Roman Catholicism than anything Protestant. The only thing missing is the Hail Mary's and the Pope.

This is foolish. I have virtually nothing in common with Catholicism.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
XL,

1. You claim to have completely eliminated all continuous and willful sin from your life. This is silly. Everyone on this planet will sin continuously and willfully for their entire lives. It's continuous because it never stops. It's willful because we choose to do it. No one makes us sin ("The Devil made me do it" doesn't work).

You keep separating continuous and willful, and referring to sin as a whole instead of a particular sin. Put them together on one sin. I am not in a continous willful sin. Yes, I am a sinner. I'm always working on something. But I'm not practicing any particular sin. That would take a greater love of sin than God.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
You claim that if one truly repents, then one stops committing the sin. OK, then how come you are still sinning at all? None of these sins that you are committing are "repeat offenses"?
As one grows in Christ they realize some things they are doing are actually sin they never realized were sin. And sometimes they end up doing the very thing they hate. They key is that when one truly hates doing something they don't end up in a willful and continuous state of that sin.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
2. You refused to answer my hypothetical question. It's a simple question. Assume that both of these guys have eliminated what you're calling "continuous and willful" sin. And they both have faith that there sins are forgiven. But they have an unequal quantity of sins committed and good works done. Can they both rest assured that they're going to Heaven?

They will both go to heaven if they're walking in the light and don't quit Christianity.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
Is there such a thing as assurance of salvation?

No. It's only assured if we stay in the faith until death.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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They will both go to heaven if they're walking in the light and don't quit Christianity.

You still won't answer my question. You keep putting qualifiers on it. Go back and read my example, and look at all the facts that I gave you. Assume that they both truly believe that their sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ. And assume that they both have truly repented for their sins at the end of each sinning week. And assume that they continued doing both of these things until they day the died. Are they both going to heaven?

You keep separating continuous and willful, and referring to sin as a whole instead of a particular sin. Put them together on one sin. I am not in a continous willful sin. Yes, I am a sinner. I'm always working on something. But I'm not practicing any particular sin. That would take a greater love of sin than God.

You are telling me that you are committing sins every week. But you are also telling me that each of these sins is sufficiently different from the other sins that you have committed. So you are not repeating any "particular" sin. That's idiotic.
 

XLargeHawk

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Feb 16, 2006
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
In the above scenario you're making it some sort of contest. People are saved if they're waling in the light instead of the darkness. A person who is a Christian for 24 hours has far less to be accountable to than the person who has been a Christian for 24 years.

Also, this statement leads me to believe that you have a rigidly, almost fanatical, works-based view of salvation. BR>
Then you would be greatly in error. It's a faith based system. To whom much is given more is expected in this area.

You may think it is fanatical, but it's only the view of people like Paul and James. That's where I got it. You probably still don't understand.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:


So you're saying that when we get to the pearly gates, we are going to be accountable for our lives.

That's what Christ said.

Matthew 16:27
27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
We're gonna have to answer for our sins and our testify to our good works.


Those are your words, not mine.

Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
And the longer that we've been Christian, the more of these good works are going to be expected. If that's the case, then I would not advise anyone to convert to Christianity until they're close to death, so that the bar for salvation will be lower.


The longer we're Chrisitans the stronger our faith should be. More works of faith should naturaly occur.[/I]

Your last sentence of advisement certainly holds a very low view of the value of being a Christian and the privilege of glorifying his name. It's also naive. Do you think we can fool God and play some sort of last minute game? Perhaps you're hung up on works.
 

XLargeHawk

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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
You still won't answer my question. You keep putting qualifiers on it. Go back and read my example, and look at all the facts that I gave you. Assume that they both truly believe that their sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ. And assume that they both have truly repented for their sins at the end of each sinning week. And assume that they continued doing both of these things until they day the died. Are they both going to heaven?
You still don't understand. The only way to answer your question is to put qualifiers on it. Also, again, I don't care what they truly believe in regards to whether their sins are forgiven. The only forgiven if God says they are.

I don't believe that at the end of the week people repent of sins. I believe they should live a life of repentance, that is, eliminating sin as they encounter it and recognize it. This is called walking in the light versus practicing sin. If they're walking in the light at the end of their days they they will be saved.

Matthew 24:11-13
11 “And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 “And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13 “But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
 

XLargeHawk

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Feb 16, 2006
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Originally posted by Hawk-A-Loogey:
You are telling me that you are committing sins every week. But you are also telling me that each of these sins is sufficiently different from the other sins that you have committed. So you are not repeating any "particular" sin. That's idiotic.



I haven't told you I commit sins every week. I certainly hope not.

Also, what's idiotic about not wanting to repeat any particular sin? It would seem to be idiotic to intentionally do so.
 

Hawk-A-Loogey

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Jan 30, 2002
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XL,

You hold to a very bizzare form of Christianity. You say that you're non-denominational, which leads me to believe that you have fallen under the spell of some charismatic foolish preacher.

I haven't told you I commit sins every week. I certainly hope not.

Yes, I'm sure there are many weeks that go by where you don't sin at all for the entire week. Just like you have eliminated continuous and willful sin from your life. You are "walking in the light".

Of course, the advantage of throwing out banalities like "walking in the light" as the key to salvation is that they are totally ambiguous. Thus, you can go through life harshly criticizing others -- which appears to be the focal point of your version of faith. You have become an expert at using the Law as a tool for criticizing others, while simulataneously ignoring the Gospel completely. And you make ridiculous assertions, such as this notion that there are entire weeks that go by where you have committed no sins.

Your arrogance, sanctimony and ignorance are what turns people off to Christianity, as has been pointed out already on this thread.

And there is no assurance of salvation in your faith. Actually, I think this concept has gone completely over your head. I don't think you've ever heard it before.