Idaho House passes bill criminalizing gender-affirming care for trans youth
- Thread starter Morrison71
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So if it's deemed medically necessary to administer hormone therapy then why isn't that acceptable?
It's being deemed medically necessary by psychologists not medical doctors.
While psychology as a science is the best we have I am skeptical of the science overall because we are so bad at it as a species. I don't think anyone should be making big decisions based on it if they don't have to.
Not really. . . I mentioned earlier that I don't think we should trust the recommendations of a psychologist because psychology is generally speaking educated guessing at best. Especially when treatments are concerned.
Because sometimes you have no choice. If a person needs anti-psychotics you have to try something and hope it works.
So basically you don't think mental health is a legitimate field of medicine. There is no need to continue this discussion then. You have concluded from your vast knowledge that there is no such thing as gender dysphoria. You are obviously not alone. Often these same people are the first to claim someone was suffering from mental health problems when they shoot up a public place or commit other atrocities.
I have a feeling that @Hoosierhawkeye was not totally saying psychiatry is not legitimate, but rather, psychiatry is not an exact science.
In orthopedics you get an xray to see a fracture. You cant do that in psychiatry. Instead you rely on a complete history and make an "educated guess" from there. There is nothing wrong with this method, but one has to recognize that when you dont have definitive testing to determine a diagnosis, this leads to frequent misdiagnosing.
You bring up shooting up a school. That is what i fear will happen when mental illness is being treated with hormones and surgery. Those may be acceptable options for a very select few, but those are not the answer for the majority of kids. We could be in the process of creating a mental health crisis for these kids.
What's the big rush to transition kids into one of only two traditionally recognized genders when there are so, so many now?
Just create one as close as possible to your gender characteristics, get your pronouns settled of course, live your true identity.
Just create one as close as possible to your gender characteristics, get your pronouns settled of course, live your true identity.
Science evolves, medical science is not exact either or all physical aliments could be cured. If your child was diagnosed with a rare disease would you choose to follow the specialists treatment plan or would you refuse because it hasn't been proven yet that it would be successful? No where did I claim that lack of hormone treatment would cause someone to harm anyone other than themselves, my point is mental health is blamed for a lot of tragedies. Do we not want to treat people using the best knowledge available?
@Hoosierhawkeye has talked about two of his children having autism. There is no medical test to confirm that diagnosis. I know it's a real disorder, but the diagnosis is not exact. Why can't he support other parents that are acting on the basis of medical professionals?
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https://medcom.uiowa.edu/theloop/news/pride-month-profile-qa-with-kevo-rivera
and people wonder why psychologist are being questioned? Check out this one employed by our own U of I.
Oh, personal freedom is not a conservative principal. But we already knew that. It's only the conservatives that don't. You see, it is a circle; incapable of realizing what they profess.
Because the "treatments" given to my children is information and extra help in navigating this world. Not pumping them full of hormones.
They also likely have ADHD too but we are doing everything we can to avoid getting scripts for that because we both know from experiences with our brothers that the treatments they were given for ADHD did not go well. In my brother's case for example it put him into a full on depression. I mean it worked that it calmed him the hell down but he was completely incapable of even feigning a smile and my parents pulled him off of it.
My wife and her brother have both been given medicines which put them into a full blown psychosis. I wasn't there to see my wife's but I was around when her brother had it, and I talked to him on the phone and he was telling me that the band "Tool" was trying to send him messages through their music.
That is the problem with psychology. The science is so inexact that the amount of times treatments, especially drug based treatments end up causing more harm than good is extremely high.
Again it's a legitimate science and it's the best we have but I would consider invasive treatments such as drugs or hormones to be extremely risky and an option of last resort.
Here's a question and I really don't know the answer but am interested in knowing. How often does their "Treatment plan" vary? Are the kids ever told, "I don't think you're really trans. You're probably just going through a phase. Let's wait and see. No hurry." Is that ever a treatment?
Another question, if there's an "expert" out there who works on taking them out of the frame of mind of believing they're the other gender, is that an acceptable form of "treatment"?
The majority of gender affirming care is information and extra help navigating this world. It involves letting the child dress as the gender they identify, letting them choose a different name if desired, and participation in other activities associated with gender identity. It's not always medical treatment. Also puberty blockers are not hormones.
I'm glad your children are receiving the physical and mental care they need. If a state was attempting to block your rights to make decisions about you autistic attention deficit children I would be arguing against that as well. I don't think you are the kind of person who would want the state to take decisions about your child's health out of your hands.
I believe Urohawk answered your question in post 49 of this thread. Here is his answer.
Answer 1: That's where the process starts. Starting hormones or any sort of physical intervention is further down the line. For many of the reasons stated in this post, it's critical to sort out the people that meet the clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those that don't.
You wouldn't want a therapist to tell a kid I don't think you're really suicidal. You're probably just seeking attention or trying to get out of a math test. Let's wait and see if how you report you feel is true. No hurry. Why would it be appropriate to have that conversation with a transgender person.
Answer 2: Think of gay conversion therapy and why that is an incredibly damaging concept and practice. The same "experts" that would do the work you suggest should be similarly ridiculed.
Gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) antagonists. I'm not in health care so I certainly could be mistaken, but the way I read the definition it sounds like a drug that keeps receptors from receiving hormones. A hormone antagonist is a specific type of receptor antagonist which acts upon hormone receptors.Come on... puberty blockers such as GnRH literally have hormone in the name. This shows how little you know about what is going on and how these affect the body.
Puberty blocker - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
So you just outlined that a provider should agree with the patient's self diagnosis. This is everything that is wrong with gender affirming care.
These are kids! And people like you want to tell them that they "are" different and "should" change their entire identity based on something that may or may not be goining on.
The reality is that kids go through a lot during these ages. Sometimes they need to be told to suck it up. Other times they just need support in a tough time. Maybe they simple want to feel accepted for who they are. Nope, you say, i cant accept you. You have to be a boy (opposite sex) if you want to be accepted. Thats effed up!
That's not what I said by any stretch of the imagination. If you were interested in truly understanding this issue, you would know that. Just so we are clear, I support everyone finding and being their authentic self. I would never tell a family member that I cannot accept them or ask that they change who they are at their core in order to satisfy me.
You might not but a lot of parents would. I've read some stories about parents who have transitioned their kids at like age 6. Now maybe that's not surgical transition but it clearly didn't take much for their parents to start treating them as a different gender.
I'd love to know the rest of the details of a 6 year old transitioning. That's not consistent with my understanding of when people generally start to question their gender or sexuality.
Could you link a couple of those stories? I have seen a few people on TV talk about not assigning gender to their children until they make their own choice which sounds silly to me, but may be its harmless. I have not seen anything where a parent has made the choice for their child to transition without their child expressing a desire to be a different gender.
Is Three Too Young for Children to Know They're a Different Gender? Transgender Researchers Disagree | KQED
Many gender clinicians now recommend transgender kids as young as three be allowed to live publicly as the gender they identity with, even though studies have shown most kids won't stay transgender as they grow older.
"When I met Gracie, she was a few months out of kindergarten — pretty young for a transgender kid, I thought. Gracie lives with her parents and younger brother in a small city in the East Bay. She is already two years into her transition, having started her public life as a girl at four. The family began by discarding her boy name and referring to Gracie as “she” and “her.” She was also allowed to wear girl clothes outside the home, and her parents changed the gender on her birth certificate to avoid confusion at school."
Young Trans Children Know Who They Are
A new study shows that gender-nonconforming kids who go on to transition already have a strong sense of their true identity—one that differs from their assigned gender.
I love how this article talks about gender non conforming as though engaging in activities or dress that is stereotyped to being with the other gender automatically means they should consider changing genders.
I remember was a young kid wanting nail polish on my nails. Should I have been transitioned into a girl?
My boys like to watch "My little pony" should I tell them they are both girls now?
See I always felt like (and I thought this was the progressive thought) that kids should just get to do what they like to do without their parents telling them they can't "because that's for girls" or "that's for boys". So I've just sort of let my kids watch the shows that they like (as long as they are age appropriate) and play with the toys they like. And I felt like that a progressive thing to do. Apparently now the progressive thing to do is to tell my boys that because of their like of my little pony they are now girls, to give them new names and start referring to them as "she and her".
My daughter likes to watch cars too. Should I decide she's a boy?
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Uh no
The treatments are to delay puberty, so that when they get older they are able to make an adult decision as to which "team" they decide to play for.
Once they go through puberty, the body changes that occur make much of that irreversible. It's literally why psychologists often recommend that route for confused kids, and it's not "commonplace", it's more of a last resort.
Here is the problem I'm reading that puberty blockers are reversible for the development of breasts and facial hair. Ok cool but what about something like height. I see no indication that it's not going to affect one's height.
And I am also noting that it is an unknown how these things affect a person psychologically.
Puberty blockers: Definition, purpose, what to expect, and more
Puberty blockers are medications that a person can take to stop the development of puberty. Learn more about them here.
www.medicalnewstoday.com
Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth
Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.
www.mayoclinic.org
Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:
- Growth spurts
- Bone growth and density
- Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started
"In addition, delaying puberty beyond one's peers can be stressful. Your child might experience lower self-esteem."
So we introduce these to people in order to prevent low self esteem from gender dysphoria but end up giving them low self esteem because they are 16 years old but still look like they are 12.
I agree with your position in how you allow your children to play and interact with what ever interests them. That's what I would do and how I always responded to my students when someone would say "that's a girl color" or "those are boy toys".Is Three Too Young for Children to Know They're a Different Gender? Transgender Researchers Disagree | KQED
Many gender clinicians now recommend transgender kids as young as three be allowed to live publicly as the gender they identity with, even though studies have shown most kids won't stay transgender as they grow older.www.kqed.org
"When I met Gracie, she was a few months out of kindergarten — pretty young for a transgender kid, I thought. Gracie lives with her parents and younger brother in a small city in the East Bay. She is already two years into her transition, having started her public life as a girl at four. The family began by discarding her boy name and referring to Gracie as “she” and “her.” She was also allowed to wear girl clothes outside the home, and her parents changed the gender on her birth certificate to avoid confusion at school."
Young Trans Children Know Who They Are
A new study shows that gender-nonconforming kids who go on to transition already have a strong sense of their true identity—one that differs from their assigned gender.www.theatlantic.com
I love how this article talks about gender non conforming as though engaging in activities or dress that is stereotyped to being with the other gender automatically means they should consider changing genders.
I remember was a young kid wanting nail polish on my nails. Should I have been transitioned into a girl?
My boys like to watch "My little pony" should I tell them they are both girls now?
See I always felt like (and I thought this was the progressive thought) that kids should just get to do what they like to do without their parents telling them they can't "because that's for girls" or "that's for boys". So I've just sort of let my kids watch the shows that they like (as long as they are age appropriate) and play with the toys they like. And I felt like that a progressive thing to do. Apparently now the progressive thing to do is to tell my boys that because of their like of my little pony they are now girls, to give them new names and start referring to them as "she and her".
My daughter likes to watch cars too. Should I decide she's a boy?
The parents in the first article seem to have gone to the extreme especially by changing the birth certificate. I don't see a problem with allowing the child to dress in a way different than their birth gender. I doubt any medical treatment has begun because the child is to young for treatment. Do I think they're doing the right thing? I don't know, I would have had to witness what was happening before they began interacting with her as a girl.
Either way I think it's an extreme case, I think most parents are caught off guard when their child talks about being transgendered. I doubt many of them wanted their child to become transgender, but out of concern for their child's health and safety they take steps to get them the counseling and treatment they need.
The second article is simply sharing data they gathered by observing children at a young age who showed a preference for things associated with the gender opposite their birth gender. Their findings were simply that the more strongly the child was drawn to behaving as the opposite gender the more likely they were to actually transition in the future. I don't think there is anything earth shattering about that research. Haven't we all interacted with children or young adults and thought to ourselves I think this person will be gay?
Many traits are displayed at a young age that lead to that prediction. It's not always right, but in my elementary teaching career I have never been surprised to learn one of my former students is gay. There were indications even at a young age that the student was different than most of his/her peers.
Here is the problem I'm reading that puberty blockers are reversible for the development of breasts and facial hair. Ok cool but what about something like height. I see no indication that it's not going to affect one's height.
And I am also noting that it is an unknown how these things affect a person psychologically.
Puberty blockers: Definition, purpose, what to expect, and more
Puberty blockers are medications that a person can take to stop the development of puberty. Learn more about them here.
Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth
Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.
Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:
Also
- Growth spurts
- Bone growth and density
- Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started
"In addition, delaying puberty beyond one's peers can be stressful. Your child might experience lower self-esteem."
So we introduce these to people in order to prevent low self esteem from gender dysphoria but end up giving them low self esteem because they are 16 years old but still look like they are 12.
All the risks associated with them are disclosed to parents/kids.
So let them make their own decisions. Quit imposing "conservative religious mantra" on them.
But that's the issue. . . why worry about a change at all especially at such a young age?
Let them go through the full range of childhood with what nature gave them and if when they grow up they decide they want to change things then they can make that decision.
Again if a kid starts telling you that they don't want to have kids in the future, we don't immediately rush them off to the doctor to give them a vasectomy or a tubal litigation. Why rush to pump them with puberty blockers? Why start affirming this change right away?
There is so much they can't see or comprehend at that age! I mean my 7 year old broke down crying because I told her she was going to grow up and move into her own house. But I'm guessing when she gets older she'll want to move away.
But here you have parents making whole sale changes to their child's identity likely on the advice of a psychologist based on the whims of a 4 year old.
You are talking about a person who doesn't even know how babies are made making huge life decisions.
Again why should we have children taking these risks when they don't have to? What is the advantage verses waiting til adulthood?
If a normal 14 year old and her mom came in wanting to give her breast augmentation and a tummy tuck would a plastic surgeon do that?
(I realize that they are not having gender transition surgery, but I'm making the comparison that puberty blockers involve risks only for the general purpose of changing appearance.
No.
It's been clearly identified as reducing the suicide risks of confused kids.
Leave this one to the psychologists and health professionals; NOT politicians.
Same with women's decisions over their own bodies. You make decisions for yourself and your family; leave other people alone.
Can you share these studies? I have not seen them, but i would like to read them. Tia
