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If a fetus is a person, it should get child support, due process and citizenship

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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By Carliss Chatman
Carliss Chatman, an assistant professor at Washington and Lee University School of Law, studies corporate personhood, corporate governance and ethics, among other legal topics.
May 17
Alabama has joined the growing number of states determined to overturn Roe v. Wade by banning abortion from conception forward. The Alabama Human Life Protection Act, as the new statute is called, subjects a doctor who performs an abortion to as many as 99 years in prison. The law, enacted Wednesday, has no exceptions for rape or incest. It redefines an “unborn child, child or person” as “a human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.”

We ought to take our laws seriously. Under the laws, people have all sorts of rights and protections. When a state grants full personhood to a fetus, should they not apply equally?

For example, should child support start at conception? Every state permits the custodial parent — who has primary physical custody of the child and is primarily responsible for his or her day-to-day care — to receive child support from the noncustodial parent. Since a fetus resides in its mother, and receives all nutrition and care from its mother’s body, the mother should be eligible for child support as soon as the fetus is declared a person — at conception in Alabama, at six weeks in states that declare personhood at a fetal heartbeat, at eight weeks in Missouri, which was on the way to passing its law on Friday, but at birth in states that have not banned abortion.

[I had an abortion in Alabama. I’m lucky that it was still legal.]

And what about deportation? Can a pregnant immigrant who conceived her child in the United States be expelled? Because doing so would require deporting a U.S. citizen. To determine the citizenship of a fetal person requires examination of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, which declares, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” The word “born” was not defined by the drafters. Presumably, they intended the standard dictionary definition: brought forth by birth. Our dates of birth are traditionally when our lives begin; we do not celebrate our dates of conception or the date of our sixth week in utero. But in states with abortion bans, “born” takes on new meaning. Now legislatures assign an arbitrary time during gestation to indicate when life, personhood and, presumably, the rights that accompany these statuses take hold. This grant of natural personhood at a point before birth brings application of the 14th Amendment into question and may thus give a fetus citizenship rights — but only in those states. There are no laws that allow the United States to deny citizenship rights to a natural-born citizen merely because they reside with, or in, a noncitizen.

Detaining any person without arraignment or trial violates the Constitution and international human rights laws. A fetus has not committed a crime, not been arraigned or charged, not weathered a trial by a jury of its peers, not had the opportunity to confront its accuser. These laws redefining personhood surely mean that a pregnant woman cannot be incarcerated, as doing so requires confining a second person without due process.

What Alabama’s abortion legislation could mean for the rest of the country

The Alabama state Senate passed the country’s most restrictive abortion legislation May 14 that could set a precedent for other legislative bodies. (Blair Guild/The Washington Post)

[Alabama’s abortion bill is not about Alabama. It’s about tossing Roe v. Wade.]

If personhood begins in utero, a fetus will need a name and a Social Security number to begin exercising private rights and using public resources. A Social Security number is necessary to claim a child on taxes. It is also a requirement to act on behalf of a child privately, like opening a bank account, buying savings bonds or obtaining insurance coverage. Typically, parents apply for a Social Security number when they obtain a birth certificate, but if states declare that personhood begins at some earlier arbitrary point in time, they will need to provide evidence, perhaps through a life certificate, that this new person exists and resides in their state. Once the life is established, can a mother insure a six-week fetus and collect if she miscarries? Will the tax code be adjusted in these states to allow parents to claim their unborn children as dependents at conception? If so, can a woman who suffers more than one miscarriage in a fiscal year claim all of her children?

Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution requires a census every 10 years to count all persons residing within the United States. If a fetus is granted personhood, it should be included in the count. The census currently asks about the age and date of birth of each household resident. Will it now include the date of conception in select states so that fetuses may be counted? There is the potential to unfairly skew census data and disproportionately apportion representatives and resources to those states.

These questions highlight the unintended and potentially absurd consequences of sweeping abortion bans. At the heart of the issue is how the 14th Amendment’s definitions of personhood and citizenship should be applied. States have been allowed to define the personhood of unnatural creatures — such as corporations — since very early in our nation’s history. In exchange for this freedom, states are not permitted to go back on their deal. In other words, once personhood rights are granted, a state may not deny life, liberty or property without due process, nor may a state deny equal protection under the law. States have never had the right to define the personhood of people. This was a subject — influenced either by place of birth or by complying with immigration and naturalization requirements — for the Constitution and federal law. State grants of natural personhood challenge this norm.

When states define natural personhood with the goal of overturning Roe v. Wade , they are inadvertently creating a system with two-tiered fetal citizenship. This is because Roe and Planned Parenthood v. Casey create a federal floor for access to the right to choose — a rule that some ability to abort a fetus exists in the United States. If these cases are overturned, that eliminates only the federal right to abortion access. Overturning Roe would not prohibit a state from continuing to allow access. In a post-Roe world, in states like New York that ensure the right to choose through their constitutions and statutes, citizenship will begin at birth. In states that move the line to define life as beginning as early as conception, personhood and citizenship will begin as soon as a woman knows she is pregnant.

Trying to define citizenship and personhood based on the laws of each state creates some far-fetched and even ridiculous scenarios. If we follow that logic, we’ll tie our Constitution into a knot no court can untangle.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...673edf2d127_story.html?utm_term=.eb8cc6aef704
 
I am reminded of this hypothetical situation when the life begins at conception argument comes up:

You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one.

Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die.
 
I saw one of the supporters of Alabama's law on tv last week. She was nearly in tears as she talked about how the unborn should have full rights.
$100 says she will tell you with a straight face that gays don't deserve the same rights as she enjoys.
 
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The citizenship argument is wrong because the Constitution clearly indicates that being "born" in the U.S. is a qualifier for citizenship. Not being knocked up in the U.S.
 
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The citizenship argument is wrong because the Constitution clearly indicates that being "born" in the U.S. is a qualifier for citizenship. Not being knocked up in the U.S.

What about child support? If it is in fact a person, does it count on the census? Tax deduction?

Hint, saying abortion is not constitutionally protected is a valid argument. Saying a fetus at six weeks is a person is stupid.
 
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This is little more than a hastily conceived strawman argument. I see absolutely no reason why the government couldn’t declare that a fetus is an unborn or pre-born human being that cannot be killed, but that citizenship and its attendant rights begins at birth.
 
What about child support? If it is in fact a person, does it count on the census? Tax deduction?

Hint, saying abortion is not constitutionally protected is a valid argument. Saying a fetus at six weeks is a person is stupid.

I'm fine with child support, census, and tax deduction (hint, having a baby costs lots of money even before birth).
 
The reason we use birth for a lot of things such as citizenship is because it's not immediately clear when conception happened. We can get a rough estimate of when conception happened but the doctors can't look at an ultra sound and tell you exactly what day the child was conceived.

Our inability to determine the exact date of conception is a really stupid argument against them being alive.
 
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The reason we use birth for a lot of things is because it's not immediately clear when conception happened. We can get a rough estimate of when conception happened but the doctors can't look at an ultra sound and tell you exactly what day the child was conceived.

Our inability to determine the exact date of conception is a really stupid argument against them being alive.

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The reason we use birth for a lot of things such as citizenship is because it's not immediately clear when conception happened. We can get a rough estimate of when conception happened but the doctors can't look at an ultra sound and tell you exactly what day the child was conceived.

Our inability to determine the exact date of conception is a really stupid argument against them being alive.

It isn’t an argument “against them being alive,” it’s a discussion of logical extension.

And your posts demonstrate you know that.

I can’t remember your response, but I know you’ve answered before, so I apologize, but what is your stance on outlawing “morning after” type pills, say they could be taken within two weeks successfully.
 
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It isn’t an argument “against them being alive,” it’s a discussion of logical extension.

And your posts demonstrate you know that.

I can’t remember your response, but I know you’ve answered before, so I apologize, but what is your stance on outlawing “morning after” type pills, say they could be taken within two weeks successfully.

My understanding is those are designed to prevent conception by giving a large dose of what the birth control pill already does. So I'm fine with preventing conception. There is some talk about how it might prevent implantation but I think the best studies we have indicate that it doesn't do that. Even if it did I don't think I could make a legal argument against it because the recently conceived zygote does not have the Hallmarks of complex life such as organ or brain function. Although I just know my wife and I wouldn't use it.

Now after conception has happened I more or less view it in terms of legality as the beginnings of brain function should be in my view the legal definition of when life begins.

In terms of it as being by extension, I would agree with Trad that since the medical care for a pregnancy and birth can cost money that child support before birth makes sense. We don't have to know an exact date,time, location for conception for this, we just need to know the mere fact that the woman is pregnant.

As for things like citizenship and age, birth makes sense simply because that it something that is easily recorded as to the date, location, and time it has taken place.
 
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My understanding is those are designed to prevent conception by giving a large dose of what the birth control pill already does. So I'm fine with preventing conception. There is some talk about how it might prevent implantation but I think the best studies we have indicate that it doesn't do that.

Now after conception has happened I more or less view it in terms of legality as the beginnings of brain function should be in my view the legal definition of when life begins.

Case by case basis, or just general consensus of when brain activity likely begins?
 
Case by case basis, or just general consensus of when brain activity likely begins?

I edited and further clarified. But I would go with for legal purposes where we can detect brain activity which I think is about the same time as we can detect a fetal heartbeat. For moral purposes anything after conception is a no go.
 
I edited and further clarified. But I would go with for legal purposes where we can detect brain activity which I think is about the same time as we can detect a fetal heartbeat. For moral purposes anything after conception is a no go.

Case by case or general timeline?
 
My understanding is those are designed to prevent conception by giving a large dose of what the birth control pill already does. So I'm fine with preventing conception. There is some talk about how it might prevent implantation but I think the best studies we have indicate that it doesn't do that. Even if it did I don't think I could make a legal argument against it because the recently conceived zygote does not have the Hallmarks of complex life such as organ or brain function. Although I just know my wife and I wouldn't use it.

Now after conception has happened I more or less view it in terms of legality as the beginnings of brain function should be in my view the legal definition of when life begins.

In terms of it as being by extension, I would agree with Trad that since the medical care for a pregnancy and birth can cost money that child support before birth makes sense. We don't have to know an exact date,time, location for conception for this, we just need to know the mere fact that the woman is pregnant.

As for things like citizenship and age, birth makes sense simply because that it something that is easily recorded as to the date, location, and time it has taken place.
To reply to your edit: parentage (father) is generally determined genetically after birth, complicating support determinations.
 
I am reminded of this hypothetical situation when the life begins at conception argument comes up:

You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one.

Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die.

Just think of the tax writeoffs for those fertility clinics, with all of those "dependents"....
 
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I edited and further clarified. But I would go with for legal purposes where we can detect brain activity which I think is about the same time as we can detect a fetal heartbeat. For moral purposes anything after conception is a no go.

Replying only because I forgot how to direct post to someone.

What is your personal moral response to this situation:

Married couple with 3 young kids, financially able to care for the family, etc. but just saving enough for future. Vasectomy, condoms, safe practice, gets pregnant. Finds out about as early as can be expected. Considering ending pregnancy.
 
Replying only because I forgot how to direct post to someone.

What is your personal moral response to this situation:

Married couple with 3 young kids, financially able to care for the family, etc. but just saving enough for future. Vasectomy, condoms, safe practice, gets pregnant. Finds out about as early as can be expected. Considering ending pregnancy.

No, scrape by, go on government assistance if you have to or put the child up for adoption.

Our third child was conceived only because my doctor postponed my vasectomy. We still had him. Things are extremely tight for us financially, they were already tight when we had just 2 children. But when my wife got pregnant with our 3rd, there wasn't even a question of if we were going to have the child. Of course we where. And though it's doubtful that she'd get pregnant again because I've had my vasectomy for probably close to 4 years now, if she did get pregnant with a 4th child we would have that child too. (I would have tests in that case to make sure I'm the dad just because I'm not stupid.) But we would still have the child.
 
Those of you who say the right doesn't support the killing of children haven't been paying attention to the school shootings taking place all over America. They're perfectly ok with dead kids.
 
The citizenship argument is wrong because the Constitution clearly indicates that being "born" in the U.S. is a qualifier for citizenship. Not being knocked up in the U.S.
Born can just mean to come into existence. The anti abortion folks will tell you a new individual is brought into existence when sperm meets egg. In Korea, they measure age from conception.
 
Should we sterilize women who have more than one miscarriage?

Because, clearly, their bodies aren't designed to bear children, and allowing them to continue conceiving them, only to end up killing them is "unethical", per the positions posted here.
 
This is little more than a hastily conceived strawman argument. I see absolutely no reason why the government couldn’t declare that a fetus is an unborn or pre-born human being that cannot be killed, but that citizenship and its attendant rights begins at birth.
Because they don’t want to say it’s a pre-born person. They don’t want a qualifying clause because they want it to be equal to the woman when evaluating rights.
 
Born can just mean to come into existence. The anti abortion folks will tell you a new individual is brought into existence when sperm meets egg. In Korea, they measure age from conception.

Source?

I find that odd because knowing the exact date of conception is impossible even today.
 
I am reminded of this hypothetical situation when the life begins at conception argument comes up:

You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one.

Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die.
I grab both the child and the container of embryos without letting anyone suffer in the fire. Easy answer tbh.
 
Personal experience. That’s what they told me when I was there. But you can google Asian age reckoning for links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning

They certainly do it differently but it says nothing about measuring from the date of conception. Which makes sense because again you can't determine the exact date someone was conceived. . . (unless of course it's being done in a lab)

Plus for all legal purposes they use the same system as we do.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning

They certainly do it differently but it says nothing about measuring from the date of conception. Which makes sense because again you can't determine the exact date someone was conceived. . . (unless of course it's being done in a lab)

Plus for all legal purposes they use the same system as we do.
Good thing you are lucky enough to have my personal experience to assist your understanding.
 
Actually it is a great idea. Child support is already happening if the couple are married. If it is an unwed mother the costs are still there. Child support prebirth would help the child and the mother with the costs of prenatal care and with the costs of the birth. This would presume she knows who the father is of course.

Citizenship is a separate issue.
 
Of and the unborn already do get due process. There are all kinds of laws surrounding charging a person with murder if they kill a fetus against the mothers wishes
 
Of and the unborn already do get due process. There are all kinds of laws surrounding charging a person with murder if they kill a fetus against the mothers wishes
What if a mother stabs her womb and she survives, but the child doesn't?
 
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