If it's a Right....

[hawkbleeder]

...it ought to just be there vs. having to go get it. This is one of the best litmus tests I've heard for helping ignorant people (which is all of us at one time or another) to know what is a right and what is a benefit. Shelter, income, insurance are not rights...they aren't automatically there, given by God... but life is, liberty is...as spelled out in the Declaration of Independence.

This post was edited on 3/24 2:21 PM by hawkbleeder

 

[joelbc1]

Either are freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the right to vote and the other listed Bill of Rights and amendments as listed in the Constitution. These rights are not God given...they are granted to US citizens by the framers of the Constitution. These men were first and foremost Diests and Christians secondarily (perhaps).
I don't think Americans fight over the rights of man as listed in the Declaration by Jefferson and extolled by Voltaire and Burke....what we enjoy fighting over is our rights as citizens granted us in the Constitution.

 

[naturalmwa]

You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

 

[Tom Paris]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

This just got interesting. What will happen to the baby? Coyotes?

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by Tom Paris:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

This just got interesting. What will happen to the baby? Coyotes?

That works. In a state of nature, bleeder's god will deny you liberty and then kill you.

 

[Tom Paris]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by Tom Paris:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

This just got interesting. What will happen to the baby? Coyotes?

That works. In a state of nature, bleeder's god will deny you liberty and then kill you.

If I was a baby I would rather fight the coyote.

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by Tom Paris:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

This just got interesting. What will happen to the baby? Coyotes?

That works. In a state of nature, bleeder's god will deny you liberty and then kill you.

Right. It's a pretty basic concept that our truly "free" state come with no rights, because no one is there to protect them.

Get rid of all government, and you'll have all sorts of rights. But I'll have the right to come put two in the back of your head and what good are your "rights" then?

 

[Tom Paris]

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by Tom Paris:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

This just got interesting. What will happen to the baby? Coyotes?

That works. In a state of nature, bleeder's god will deny you liberty and then kill you.

Right. It's a pretty basic concept that our truly "free" state come with no rights, because no one is there to protect them.

Get rid of all government, and you'll have all sorts of rights. But I'll have the right to come put two in the back of your head and what good are your "rights" then?

Wait...are we still talking about the baby?

 

[IMCC965]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

But you can drop a MAN/WOMAN off in the woods and expect them to make a pretty good go of it. Baby's need care, which isn't surprising coming from you and the left since you're all for killing babies anyway.

Just sayin'........

 

[KitingHigh]

First off there is no right to vote in the Constitution

Second, liberty cannot be given, it can only be taken away. Government does not grant rights. The Constitution is quite clear that the rights exist and states that the government may not infringe upon them.

The OP is undeniably and absolutely correct when it comes to Constitutionally Guaranteed rights. There is no logical argument otherwise. To attempt to deny it is foolhardy.

This post was edited on 3/24 3:05 PM by KitingHigh

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by IMCC965:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
You fail your own test. Neither of those things exist in a state of nature. You can't drop a baby off in the woods and have him live a long life filled with liberty. For everyone who has ever experienced either, it comes about as a result of civilization, i.e. government. In fact without government, you can't even have liberty or a right, its definitional. Liberty and rights require some mechanism to restrain license.

In a natural state, you have zero rights because you have no mechanism to enforce respect of those rights and hence no way to exercise those rights. A right that isn't actionable doesn't exists. If you believe in the right to life, you must believe in the right to healthcare, food, water, etc. If you believe in liberty, you must believe in law enforcement, duty to the group, etc.

But you can drop a MAN/WOMAN off in the woods and expect them to make a pretty good go of it. Baby's need care, which isn't surprising coming from you and the left since you're all for killing babies anyway.

Just sayin'........

Thank you, this is my point. The "rights" bleeder describes are not just there by the grace of gods, but you have to "make a go of it" so to speak. In other words rights require duty and effort and enforcement and maintenance and care. Cons always want rights to be freebies that require no personal responsibility. Thats telling in my book.

 

[lawsonhawk]

Originally posted by IMCC965:
But you can drop a MAN/WOMAN off in the woods and expect them to make a pretty good go of it. Baby's need care, which isn't surprising coming from you and the left since you're all for killing babies anyway.

Just sayin'........

I don't think so. Eventually, the man or woman is going to have to decide who gets the deer carcass for dinner. The stronger one chases off or beats the shit out of the other and takes the prize. Does the weak one not have a right to eat or does someone have to protect the others "right" to eat? The "right" is actually given by the one with the power.