You know, it seems that this old girl might have a decent amount of fellow travelers on this one...comrade.
š
If you want to know why Putin is threatening Ukraine.
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Russia has plenty of good top soil and fields that go for miles.
Infrastructure is a problem to get the crop to market.
At the end of the Cold War Reagan promised that the USA would leave the Russian Satellite countries alone, as Russia feels naked without huge expanses of land for slash and burn tactics to its west. We didn't.
Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated.
Mikhail Gorbachev himself said the question of NATO's expansion didn't come up in discussions when he was Soviet leader. That hasn't stopped the assertion that NATO and the United States misled Moscow from becoming a central grievance for Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin.
www.rferl.org
Moscow "allowed" Germany to re-unify. Interesting verbiage there.
You're swimming in the deep-end without your water wings. Moscow gave up 1/3 of their territory and 1/2 their population by dissolving the Warsaw Pact.
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive
Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents
nsarchive.gwu.edu
RAY McGOVERN: Ukraine For Dummies
November 14, 2019Save
There was no excuse for Congressā ignorance of Ukraine. Here is a guide to help them.
By Ray McGovern
Special to Consortium News
At Wednesdayās debut of the impeachment hearings there was one issue upon which both sides of the aisle seemed to agree, and it was a comic-book caricature of reality. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff led off the proceedings with this: āIn 2014, Russia invaded a United States ally, Ukraine, to reverse that nationās embrace of the West, and to fulfill Vladimir Putinās desire to rebuild a Russian empireā¦ā
Five years ago, when Ukraine first came into the news, those Americans who thought Ukraine was an island in the Pacific can perhaps be forgiven. That members of the House Intelligence Committee donāt know ā or pretend not to know ā more accurate information about Ukraine is a scandal, and a consequential one.
As Professor Stephen Cohen has warned, if the impeachment process does not deal in objective fact, already high tensions with Russia are likely to become even more dangerous.
So here is a kind of primer for those who might be interested in some Ukraine history:
- Late 1700s: Catherine the Great consolidated her rule; established Russiaās first and only warm-water naval base in Crimea.
- In 1919,after the Bolshevik Revolution, Moscow defeated resistance in Ukraine and the country becomes one of 15 Republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR).
Khrushchev: Gave Crimea away. (Wikipedia) - In 1954, after Stalinās death the year before, Nikita Khrushchev, a Russian born near the Ukrainian border, assumed power. Pandering to Ukrainian supporters, he unilaterally decreed that henceforth Crimea would be part of the Ukrainian SSR, not the Russian SSR. Since all 15 Republics of the USSR were under tight rule from Moscow, the switch was a distinction without much of a difference ā until later, when the USSR fell apart..
- Nov. 1989: Berlin wall down.
- Dec. 2-3, 1989: President George H. W. Bush invites Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to summit talks in Malta; reassures him āthe U.S. will not take advantageā of Soviet troubles in Eastern Europe. Bush had already been pushing the idea of a Europe whole and free, from Portugal to Vladivostok.
- Feb. 7-10, 1990: Secretary of State James Baker negotiates a quid pro quo; Soviet acceptance of the bitter pill of a reunited Germany (inside NATO), in return for an oral U.S. promise not to enlarge NATO āone inch moreā to the East.
- Dec. 1991: the USSR falls apart. Suddenly it does matter that Khrushchev gave Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR; Moscow and Kyiv work out long-term arrangements for the Soviet navy to use the naval base at Sevastopol.
The quid pro quo began to unravel in October 1996 during the last weeks of President Bill Clintonās campaign when he said he would welcome Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic into NATO ā the earlier promise to Moscow notwithstanding. Former U.S. Ambassador to the USSR Jack Matlock, who took part in both the Bush-Gorbachev early-December 1989 summit in Malta and the Baker-Gorbachev discussions in early February 1990, has said, āThe language used was absolute, including no ātaking advantageā by the U.S. ā¦ I donāt see how anybody could view the subsequent expansion of NATO as anything but ātaking advantage,ā particularly since, by then, Russia was hardly a credible threat.ā (From 16 members in 1990, NATO has grown to 29 member states ā the additional 13 all lie east of Germany.)- Feb. 1, 2008: Amid rumors of NATO planning to offer membership to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warns U.S. Ambassador William Burns that āNyet Means Nyet.ā Russia will react strongly to any move to bring Ukraine or Georgia into NATO. Thanks to WikiLeaks, we have Burnsās original cable from embassy in Moscow.
- April 3, 2008: Included in Final Declaration from NATO summit in Bucharest: āNATO welcomes Ukraineās and Georgiaās Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.ā
- Early September 2013: Putin helps Obama resist neocon demands to do āshock and aweā on Syria; Russians persuade President Bashar al-Assad to give up Syrian army chemical weapons for destruction on a U.S. ship outfitted for chemical weapons destruction. Neocons are outraged over failing to mousetrap Obama into attacking Syria.
Balance:
RAY McGOVERN: Ukraine For Dummies
There was no excuse for Congress' ignorance of Ukraine. Here is a guide to help them. By Ray McGovern Special to Consortium News At Wednesday's debut of the impeachment hearings there was one issue upon which both sides of the aisle seemed to agree, and it was a comic-book caricature of reality
consortiumnews.com
Yep. And I'm basically just an observer watching the ball get lobbed back and forth.
In 1989 the Brezhnev Doctrine still ruled. German reunification could have meant WW3.
At the beginning of 1991 there were still about 338,000 soldiers in 24 divisions, distributed among five land armies and an air army in what was by then the Western Group of Forces. In addition, there were about 208,000 relatives of officers as well as civil employees, among them about 90,000 children. Most locations were in the area of today's Brandenburg.
In 1991 there were approximately 4,200 tanks, 8,200 armored vehicles, 3,600 artillery pieces, 106,000 other motor vehicles, 690 aircraft, 680 helicopters, and 180 rocket systems.
Itās a great thing for the world Gorbachev wasnāt a bloodthirsty leader.
No. It was due to expire in '17. In 2010, Medvedev got a 25 year extension on top of '17.
George Friedman of the shadow CIA business intelligence firm, Stratfor, called the Feb/2014 putsch in Maidan the "most blatant coup in history" aimed at Russia. He's on video saying that if Russia, with its vast amount of natural resources was ever to form an alliance with Germany and their technology, capital and industrial might, it would be an economic rival that the US could not match. We have moved heaven and earth to prevent that in order to maintain hegemony.
However, Kissinger and Brzezinski are on record as saying our greatest nightmare is pushing Russia into China's arms. This is exactly where we are today. Russia has pivoted to the East. Moscow and Beijing share technology and defense together. They are SCO members.
However, Kissinger and Brzezinski are on record as saying our greatest nightmare is pushing Russia into China's arms. This is exactly where we are today. Russia has pivoted to the East. Moscow and Beijing share technology and defense together. They are SCO members.
The guy also owned his children and purchased most of this country without giving the inhabitants a say in their new government.
And Russia certainly doesnāt care about whether the Chechens want to be governed by Russia.
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I think the GOP, Dem, and Indies on this board can all agree that Nat is a Russian troll.
I'm not debating you. You are not worthy. I'm just pointing out the obvious, Comrade
Freedom...I know this is anathema to your core beliefs, occurred when Crimeans seceded. I bet you opposed Washington, Jefferson and Madison as well. The government in Ukraine is illegal. Capiche! You always seem to gloss over that. But, you go boy! You'll get your nuclear war yet.
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They have the "freedom" to pick up stakes and move to Russia.
Let the Ukrainians repopulate the Crimea they've "owned" for a couple generations already.
The Crimea has never been predominantly Ukrainian at any point.
Thereās a Wiki page with census data going back to the Tsars if you want to speak on this subject with at least some knowledge.
New Mexico wasn't predominantly "white", either.
In fact, actual Mexican/Hispanic landowners had their land taken from them by white settlers.
So, should they be allowed to secede to Mexico? Should they have done so decades ago?
If the people of New Mexico want to secede and join Mexico I canāt think of any reason Iād be opposed to them satisfying that desire they held about what form their government took. I remember when the Czech and Slovak republics were formed, it was beautiful evidence that civilized people donāt have to make reorganization bloody affairs.
I bet the folks in New Mexico could handle their affairs.
If Scotland votes to secede, should the Queen invade and re-subjugate them?
Canada achieved its independence in my lifetime.
To me itās only ignorance of history that imagines things must remain as youāve known them.
Itās a conceit of the Present.
It's not legal, per our Constitution.
Just like per the Soviet/Russian Constitution. And the agreements made 50 yrs ago between Russia and Ukraine. New Mexico was ceded to the American government, too.
A lot of Russian bots in this thread.....
Cue up the Atlantic Council trolls in 3,2,1..............
You drive by posters have not refuted one thing. The most unimpressive, lazy and weak-minded amalgamation of pedestrian putzes in one gathering. I weep for your offspring.
You drive by posters have not refuted one thing. The most unimpressive, lazy and weak-minded amalgamation of pedestrian putzes in one gathering. I weep for your offspring.
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Sure...and the neo-nazis (with Obama backing) had the freedom to overthrow the democratically elected government of Yanukovych.
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