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Is being Trans a choice?

Is being Trans a choice?

  • Yes

  • No


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None of that is gender. It is sex.

You guys are really confused about this.
You are right, gender is a social construct. "Transgender fear" is based on sexual organs so it's hard to separate the two when talking about the proposed laws. Now as far as being born the wrong gender, using your definition, is probably wrong. The individuals are born the right gender, but because of their sexual organs they are treated by society as "the wrong gender."
 
I've covered this in other threads. I have a friend who looks like a woman. Wears dresses, has long hair, wears makeup. By all outside appearances he is a woman to a casual observer. He has no desire for hormone therapy. Wants to keep his breasts. And loves all things girly. Yet he is a he.

There are no hard and fast rules for presentation even for trans people. And that is the point. It is a personal thing. Which is why I think we should respect that and let them live their lives.
Interesting response, thanks. But I am unclear, was your friend born a dude? He wants to keep his breasts? Bolt-ons?
 
Sex in animals, humans included are a matter of hormones. Some animals can selectively change hormone levels. It doesn't mean it isn't really binary. You need sperm and egg. Yes some invertebrates have both, the worm and snail but some of you are wanting to go down some really weird rabbit holes.
gender and sex are not the same.

I'm all for gay rights and people doing what they want with their bodies but if you can't start with the same set of facts, there can be no discussion/progress.
 
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We’re all humans - with predisposed perceptions, differing views on politics, differing views on religion, differing views on culture, differing views on morality, differing views on well…just about everything except the really obvious (e.g. pedophilia is bad but even that I guess would be argued by NAMBLA!). Norm crashing is massively complex given that reality. So how many times do we have to go down the path? Over and over again. There’s no easy button or fast forward when you push any boundary…especially one that is rooted deeply in the fabric of society.
I think what I’m upset about is this path is, and has been repeated — and one would think given this, maybe wouldn’t be so hard every time — and I believe it is made hard to a large extent artificially by people using these issues to gain and sustain political, and thus financial power.

Same as abortion issue, sort of. That shit is “artificial” in that it is manufactured not to solve a perceived problem, but to simply rally for votes — i.e. power. We know how to whittle the demand down closer to zero. But every election cycle, we “politic” away from those gains. Because it’s an easy power play.

Well, so, too, is the next xenophobic play. And where and towards whom are these plays effective? Always rural, often religious. Why? Because they’re typically more isolated, more insular, and prone to fear-based rhetoric. And this is not to disparage. It is entirely normal.
 
Female to male transition.
So born a female, likes all things girly, likes having breasts, doesn't want hormone therapy. I dunno, did he have an addadicktome operation? How is that "he is a he?"

Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, lol, but thanks for your patience.
 
So born a female, likes all things girly, likes having breasts, doesn't want hormone therapy. I dunno, did he have an addadicktome operation? How is that "he is a he?"

Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, lol, but thanks for your patience.
It's not my place to demand he get a crew cut and take drugs. It's my place to be a good friend and support him.
 
You are right, gender is a social construct. "Transgender fear" is based on sexual organs so it's hard to separate the two when talking about the proposed laws. Now as far as being born the wrong gender, using your definition, is probably wrong. The individuals are born the right gender, but because of their sexual organs they are treated by society as "the wrong gender."

Now we are getting closer to agreement.

However, I don't see society treating these people as being the wrong gender; they themselves, and now most progressives, view them as the wrong gender.

When this subject comes up I always think of Johny Weir. Here is a guy who completely embraces his strong, athletic, male body; but also embraces his personality and tastes that are normally associated with women. He appears to be a very happy, mentally healthy guy. I've always been a fan.

I can't help but wonder, however, what is happening to twelve-year-old future Johny Weirs. Is society now telling them their behavior is that of a woman, and so they ought to change their body to a woman? Are the people who perpetuate that idea any better than the bigots who hate LGBTQ because they are different?

I struggle with that. And I struggle with being called a bigot just because I am not comfortable with how we "progressives" are approaching this subject.
 
If people think getting shunned and ridiculed by half of society is a choice I have beachfront property in Serbia to sell you.
 
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Now we are getting closer to agreement.

However, I don't see society treating these people as being the wrong gender; they themselves, and now most progressives, view them as the wrong gender.

When this subject comes up I always think of Johny Weir. Here is a guy who completely embraces his strong, athletic, male body; but also embraces his personality and tastes that are normally associated with women. He appears to be a very happy, mentally healthy guy. I've always been a fan.

I can't help but wonder, however, what is happening to twelve-year-old future Johny Weirs. Is society now telling them their behavior is that of a woman, and so they ought to change their body to a woman? Are the people who perpetuate that idea any better than the bigots who hate LGBTQ because they are different?

I struggle with that. And I struggle with being called a bigot just because I am not comfortable with how we "progressives" are approaching this subject.
There are lots of Johnny Weirs out there. Don't justify your worries about transgender people by being concerned about flamboyant gay men or butch lesbians.
 
It's not my place to demand he get a crew cut and take drugs. It's my place to be a good friend and support him.
Huey I really think you do and kudos for that, but ... what the heck? Your description of this person makes zero sense.

Maybe this is what happens when you support a movement than makes no sense ... you start making no sense. Be careful.
 
There are lots of Johnny Weirs out there. Don't justify your worries about transgender people by being concerned about flamboyant gay men or butch lesbians.

Again, this is such a miserable and thoughtless response I don't know what point you could possibly think you are making.
 
What rich bullshit is this? There is no strict binary biology. Mother Nature gives no shits about black and white binary biology. She creates grey everyday.
I would counter that nature gives a shit about a trait that fails to procreate the species. What explains the rapid rise in trans lifestyles? Genetics? A new mutation? If you ascribe to Darwinian theory, would you expect an equally rapid decline in future generations given the lack of reproductive capacity among trans people? We have free will. If you legitimize something and make it more appealing, more people will make that choice. Should children be allowed to make that choice? In the vast majority of cases, no, whether you look at it from a biological or theological perspective.
 
Again, this is such a miserable and thoughtless response I don't know what point you could possibly think you are making.
What point were you making about Weir? I thought you were saying that men like him would feel pressure to become women, if that's not the case I apologize.
 
If people think getting shunned and ridiculed by half of society is a choice I have beachfront property in Serbia to sell you.
I’m of the same mind, if it’s a choice it seems an odd one to make deliberately so you can be hated and treated as an outcast by a large contingent of society. Perhaps some are mentally ill, something akin to Munchausen Syndrome by proxy perhaps, but let’s not forget that less than 50 years ago that homosexuality was considered a bonafide mental illness by the medical community. Clearly we have evolved from that stance over time and I suspect that transgenderism will follow a similar arc.
 
Doubtful. This is an incredibly stupid country. If it's not this, it'll be some other made up scary thing the GOP runs out there. See: critical race theory.
Also something most people don’t care about or think needs to die
 
Why is OP trying to erase mental illness? Doesn’t everyone deserve to seek treatment from mental health professionals?

It’s like people like OP & @Huey Grey want mental illness to not even exist.

Disgusting.
 
Why is OP trying to erase mental illness? Doesn’t everyone deserve to seek treatment from mental health professionals?

It’s like people like OP & @Huey Grey want mental illness to not even exist.

Disgusting.
If you want to see awful bullying type behavior, find someone on Twitter who talks about being talked into transitioning too early and it messing up their entire lives. Talk about people who "don't get to exist". The ganging up on these people with everyone calling them liars, is despicable. Funny how they're not allowed to exist.
 
I think what I’m upset about is this path is, and has been repeated — and one would think given this, maybe wouldn’t be so hard every time — and I believe it is made hard to a large extent artificially by people using these issues to gain and sustain political, and thus financial power.

Same as abortion issue, sort of. That shit is “artificial” in that it is manufactured not to solve a perceived problem, but to simply rally for votes — i.e. power. We know how to whittle the demand down closer to zero. But every election cycle, we “politic” away from those gains. Because it’s an easy power play.

Well, so, too, is the next xenophobic play. And where and towards whom are these plays effective? Always rural, often religious. Why? Because they’re typically more isolated, more insular, and prone to fear-based rhetoric. And this is not to disparage. It is entirely normal.

I think I'm far less impressed and hopeful for our species in the collective "we" than you are. ;)

Whether you're the manipulator or the manipulated - getting past (or taking advantage of) the power, the greed, the fear, etc. is just too much for our little brains to process. Someday we'll either destroy ourselves or Mother Nature will do a hard reset. Maybe Humanity 2.0 can figure it out.
 
I’m of the same mind, if it’s a choice it seems an odd one to make deliberately so you can be hated and treated as an outcast by a large contingent of society. Perhaps some are mentally ill, something akin to Munchausen Syndrome by proxy perhaps, but let’s not forget that less than 50 years ago that homosexuality was considered a bonafide mental illness by the medical community. Clearly we have evolved from that stance over time and I suspect that transgenderism will follow a similar arc.

The difference now, however, is that it is the supposed advocates for trans folks who claim they have a disorder that requires treatment.
 
The difference now, however, is that it is the supposed advocates for trans folks who claim they have a disorder that requires treatment.

Gender dysphoria and gender identity

Many people with gender dysphoria have a strong, lasting desire to live a life that "matches" or expresses their gender identity. They do this by changing the way they look and behave.

Some people with gender dysphoria, but not all, may want to use hormones and sometimes surgery to express their gender identity.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria.

 
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Gender dysphoria and gender identity

Many people with gender dysphoria have a strong, lasting desire to live a life that "matches" or expresses their gender identity. They do this by changing the way they look and behave.

Some people with gender dysphoria, but not all, may want to use hormones and sometimes surgery to express their gender identity.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is not normal, correct?
 
The difference now, however, is that it is the supposed advocates for trans folks who claim they have a disorder that requires treatment.

Correct, they NEED “gender confirming” medical treatment for their non-mental illness.

The logical hoops these people jump through in their zeal for transgenderism is astonishing.
 
Jesus, it’s clearly not normal, definitely aberrant, a **** up of nature at best
There have been people living as opposite gender throughout time. It's not a 21st century phenomenon. I agree It's not common, but disagree that it's unnatural.
 
I have yet to see a animal that self identifies as another gender than it's biological sex.

Sex in animals, humans included are a matter of hormones. Some animals can selectively change hormone levels. It doesn't mean it isn't really binary. You need sperm and egg. Yes some invertebrates have both, the worm and snail but some of you are wanting to go down some really weird rabbit holes.
gender and sex are not the same.

I'm all for gay rights and people doing what they want with their bodies but if you can't start with the same set of facts, there can be no discussion/progress.
I’m a Reef keeper and have multiple wrasses in my tanks. They are one of the species of fish that can change sex at will (usually, you’ll see). All species of wrasse can self-determine on any given day what sex they want to be. Typically they will only change sex if they aren’t mating, for example if you take three female bluestar leopard wrasses (one of the species I own) and put them in one tank, then one of them will change from this beautiful female

064b3aaa768c51424a923fba4d4e440e.jpg

To this pretty boring male


macropharyngodon-bipartitus-f7dfbaea543b4ed3b70ddf9b3e05832d.jpg


As I want the showier female, I purposefully only keep one bluestar leopard wrasse in my tank and so far she has stayed a beautiful elegant female.

But not all species of wrasse are like that. Most species of wrasse have more brilliant looking boys and you want that. And some have a third sex.

The Lineatus Wrasse all start out as females and just like my other wrasse they can go back and forth from male to female at will.

Usually you start with females which are nice enough but semi bland

cirrhilabrus-lineatus-e76411b921c344d4b8209c848b31c4ea.jpg


And if you have three of them then one will turn into a male typically and they’re a little showier.

LineatusFairyWrasse.jpg


But if you get three or more males together, then one of them will switch to a third sex called a Supermale. Once they become a Supermale, they never switch back. But that’s great because Supermales are ultimately super showy. Fabulous even.


images


DiiE9HaUEAED53B.jpg


It’s a little easier to see the three sexes in the Flame Fairy Wrasse

Female and male

301_hawaiian-flame-wrasse-male_1.png


And the flamboyant Supermale

29b24f5f084764376692d7209e64ac5d.jpg



C-Jordani-Male-110mm-Hawaii-Display1.jpg


There are plenty of animals which not only can they switch sex or be both at the same time, but take on a third sex.
 
I’m a Reef keeper and have multiple wrasses in my tanks. They are one of the species of fish that can change sex at will (usually, you’ll see). All species of wrasse can self-determine on any given day what sex they want to be. Typically they will only change sex if they aren’t mating, for example if you take three female bluestar leopard wrasses (one of the species I own) and put them in one tank, then one of them will change from this beautiful female

064b3aaa768c51424a923fba4d4e440e.jpg

To this pretty boring male


macropharyngodon-bipartitus-f7dfbaea543b4ed3b70ddf9b3e05832d.jpg


As I want the showier female, I purposefully only keep one bluestar leopard wrasse in my tank and so far she has stayed a beautiful elegant female.

But not all species of wrasse are like that. Most species of wrasse have more brilliant looking boys and you want that. And some have a third sex.

The Lineatus Wrasse all start out as females and just like my other wrasse they can go back and forth from male to female at will.

Usually you start with females which are nice enough but semi bland

cirrhilabrus-lineatus-e76411b921c344d4b8209c848b31c4ea.jpg


And if you have three of them then one will turn into a male typically and they’re a little showier.

LineatusFairyWrasse.jpg


But if you get three or more males together, then one of them will switch to a third sex called a Supermale. Once they become a Supermale, they never switch back. But that’s great because Supermales are ultimately super showy. Fabulous even.


images


DiiE9HaUEAED53B.jpg


It’s a little easier to see the three sexes in the Flame Fairy Wrasse

Female and male

301_hawaiian-flame-wrasse-male_1.png


And the flamboyant Supermale

29b24f5f084764376692d7209e64ac5d.jpg



C-Jordani-Male-110mm-Hawaii-Display1.jpg


There are plenty of animals which not only can they switch sex or be both at the same time, but take on a third sex.

I'm not jumping into this argument any further just making a comment. Long ago when I learned about the birds and the bees - never, ever in my life could I have imagined having a conversation about gender/sex/whatever that would include tropical fish as part of some serious perspective / point being made. I mean, you could have told me at the time it was going to happen but I'd be like...whoa - how the phuck did we get there? ;)
 
I’m a Reef keeper and have multiple wrasses in my tanks. They are one of the species of fish that can change sex at will (usually, you’ll see). All species of wrasse can self-determine on any given day what sex they want to be. Typically they will only change sex if they aren’t mating, for example if you take three female bluestar leopard wrasses (one of the species I own) and put them in one tank, then one of them will change from this beautiful female

064b3aaa768c51424a923fba4d4e440e.jpg

To this pretty boring male


macropharyngodon-bipartitus-f7dfbaea543b4ed3b70ddf9b3e05832d.jpg


As I want the showier female, I purposefully only keep one bluestar leopard wrasse in my tank and so far she has stayed a beautiful elegant female.

But not all species of wrasse are like that. Most species of wrasse have more brilliant looking boys and you want that. And some have a third sex.

The Lineatus Wrasse all start out as females and just like my other wrasse they can go back and forth from male to female at will.

Usually you start with females which are nice enough but semi bland

cirrhilabrus-lineatus-e76411b921c344d4b8209c848b31c4ea.jpg


And if you have three of them then one will turn into a male typically and they’re a little showier.

LineatusFairyWrasse.jpg


But if you get three or more males together, then one of them will switch to a third sex called a Supermale. Once they become a Supermale, they never switch back. But that’s great because Supermales are ultimately super showy. Fabulous even.


images


DiiE9HaUEAED53B.jpg


It’s a little easier to see the three sexes in the Flame Fairy Wrasse

Female and male

301_hawaiian-flame-wrasse-male_1.png


And the flamboyant Supermale

29b24f5f084764376692d7209e64ac5d.jpg



C-Jordani-Male-110mm-Hawaii-Display1.jpg


There are plenty of animals which not only can they switch sex or be both at the same time, but take on a third sex.
Interesting. Are you aware of any animals that change sex outside of reproductive pressures?
 
It's not about pride.
It's absolutely about looking around and recognizing how the world has become.
If you can't see that people have become self centered and absorbed in how others see them I don't know what to tell you. I see it everywhere.
This issue is no different.
As I said I am not the judge. I refuse to do that. I'm sure there are actual mental and/or biological reasons. However you're unwilling to accept that a large percentage of this trend is by choice.
Who's the stubborn and ignorant one now?

Have become self-centered and absorbed in how others see them? I don't think that's a new experience within the human animal.
 
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