Is it time for a takedown to be worth 3 pts?

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Hello, I am the Evil Monkey In The Closet, and I'll be playing the role of the @THE_DEVIL 's advocate today.

Given all the complaints about stalling and the growth of the sport, is it time for college wrestling to evolve and make the offensive takedown worth more points?

Reversals would still be worth two, but with the talk about wanting to incentivize offense, shouldn't the goal, then, be to make offense worth achieving?

How much of an impact would it have if an offensive takedown was worth 3 points instead of TWO?

How would that change the mindset of programs like Penn State and Oklahoma State?

Would that force them to double down even further on their efforts to avoid giving up takedown by any means necessary, including when it comes to riding?

Or will it actually have a positive impact in terms of offense and scoring in wrestling?

Or will it have no impact at all?

What say you?

 

[LagunaBeachHawk]

Hello, I am the Evil Monkey In The Closet, and I'll be playing the role of the @THE_DEVIL 's advocate today.

Given all the complaints about stalling and the growth of the sport, is it time for college wrestling to evolve and make the offensive takedown worth more points?

Reversals would still be worth two, but with the talk about wanting to incentivize offense, shouldn't the goal, then, be to make offense worth achieving?

How much of an impact would it have if an offensive takedown was worth 3 points instead of TWO?

How would that change the mindset of programs like Penn State and Oklahoma State?

Would that force them to double down even further on their efforts to avoid giving up takedown by any means necessary, including when it comes to riding?

Or will it actually have a positive impact in terms of offense and scoring in wrestling?

Or will it have no impact at all?

What say you?

I have no problem with that. I wanted the push out until I watched the Big 12 final last night and watched Gfellar underhook the Oklahoma kid out of bounds for 7 minutes.

i think 3 points is a better incentive. Kind of like when freestyle went from 1 to 2 point takedowns.

 

[pumpdog20]

I like the 3 point td because I hate that escapes are worth half as much as a takedown.

Here's a question for you folks... is folkstyle wrestling the only sport where you have to literally give points to your opponent before you're allowed to use all scoring capabilities again?

 

[jrod65]

I have no problem with that. I wanted the push out until I watched the Big 12 final last night and watched Gfellar underhook the Oklahoma kid out of bounds for 7 minutes.

I hear the same argument about how a pushout would turn folkstyle into sumo.

My thoughts on this:

More often than not, in folkstyle the wrestler "getting pushed" oob is allowing it to happen. Why? Because there is typically no repercussions.

If a wrestler knew that going oob would cost them a point, they will alter how they wrestle near the edge.

Wrestlers are adaptable.

The wrestling on the edge, backing oob when in danger strategy will change toward engagement in the center. Wrestlers will come up with counters to opponents that are just trying to push them out of the circle.

Edge stalling is a mess right now. When or if it is called and who it is called on is a total crapshoot. Make it simple for all involved(wrestlers, refs, fans). You go oob 1st, you give up a point. Simple(mostly) to understand and enforce....

I will concede that I could see a pushfest happening at hwt when a 225lb guy is going against a monster like Schultz, but the undersized heavies will learn how to use their speed/agility advantage to counter this in time.

 

[JuiceHawk]

How about an extra point for most TDs in a match similar to riding time?

 

[Cruo]

I don't like how an escape is worth half as much as a TD, but I feel like this could also incentivize stall rides even more than they already are. Even if they took riding time point away.

As far as underhooking the opponent out of bounds goes, I think the guy going out of bounds is definitely stalling. They are in a position they don't want to be in so they get out of bounds to avoid being thrown. If we had a push out rule, then wrestlers would be more savvy in that position. Instead of underhooks being boring because we know the other guy is about to skate oob, it would be exciting. We'd get more Bull/Cenzo situations. More ohhhs and ahhhhs from the audience and fewer cries of stalling.

 

[Iowawrestling03]

No. What I think we need is to try and sync up more with freestyle. Do away with escape point and leave takedowns as two points. Refs should also be able to call a reset to neutral if nothing is going on in top/bottom. Maybe something like 20 second clock and do away with riding time concept. The riding time clock could become a 20 second clock that only results in reset if no tilt/pinning move is underway.

As much as I love folkstyle, full period ride outs with no back points is so boring to watch. I think this rule change would result in shorter and faster paced matches. Also wouldn't mind something like being put on the clock... Maybe take turns on the clock for a full period (2nd and 3rd). If you have choice, your opponent is on the clock.

 

[tosal563]

Hello, I am the Evil Monkey In The Closet, and I'll be playing the role of the @THE_DEVIL 's advocate today.

Given all the complaints about stalling and the growth of the sport, is it time for college wrestling to evolve and make the offensive takedown worth more points?

Reversals would still be worth two, but with the talk about wanting to incentivize offense, shouldn't the goal, then, be to make offense worth achieving?

How much of an impact would it have if an offensive takedown was worth 3 points instead of TWO?

How would that change the mindset of programs like Penn State and Oklahoma State?

Would that force them to double down even further on their efforts to avoid giving up takedown by any means necessary, including when it comes to riding?

Or will it actually have a positive impact in terms of offense and scoring in wrestling?

Or will it have no impact at all?

What say you?

naw, it's time to move on from folkstyle.

 

[Stephen Hawk King]

I would much rather see the wrestler who scored the takedown given the option to restart on their feet without awarding an escape point.

 

[pablow]

I think 2 points for TD and no points for escapes makes sense. I always thought the riding time point should be awarded at 30 seconds with no accumulated riding time clock. After 30 seconds you get a five count to either let your opponent up our to begin motion for back points.

I think this would all look like like the tie-breaker 30 second ride in overtime, which is quite exciting. Also, it allows for back points and pins. And, riding to take your opponent's accumulated riding time below a minute will end.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

I think reversals should be worth three in that case. They're rarer at the D1 level than takedowns. I also think its one of the most exciting moves in the sport.

 

[GoHawks1996]

I would much rather see the wrestler who scored the takedown given the option to restart on their feet without awarding an escape point.

I was just talking about this. If the bottom wrestler gets out without you wanting them to, then they earned their escape point. Also, a 3 point takedown would just lead to more stalling because now guys have an even bigger lead.

I think a pushout point and the ability to cut a guy without giving up an escape point would do our sport wonders.

 

[MVPFAN]

I don't like how an escape is worth half as much as a TD, but I feel like this could also incentivize stall rides even more than they already are. Even if they took riding time point away.

As far as underhooking the opponent out of bounds goes, I think the guy going out of bounds is definitely stalling. They are in a position they don't want to be in so they get out of bounds to avoid being thrown. If we had a push out rule, then wrestlers would be more savvy in that position. Instead of underhooks being boring because we know the other guy is about to skate oob, it would be exciting. We'd get more Bull/Cenzo situations. More ohhhs and ahhhhs from the audience and fewer cries of stalling.

If a guy doesn't want to get backed off then stay away from the edge and don't give up underhooks to people.

 

[MVPFAN]

I was just talking about this. If the bottom wrestler gets out without you wanting them to, then they earned their escape point. Also, a 3 point takedown would just lead to more stalling because now guys have an even bigger lead.

I think a pushout point and the ability to cut a guy without giving up an escape point would do our sport wonders.

I like no points for free escape better than 3 point TD.

 

[LIV4GOD]

I have no problem with that. I wanted the push out until I watched the Big 12 final last night and watched Gfellar underhook the Oklahoma kid out of bounds for 7 minutes.

And that wouldn't have happened with a pushout rule. That's the point.

 

[bdcolt45er]

naw, it's time to move on from folkstyle.

I may be in the minority but I honestly prefer folk. It seems to me that on the whole folkstyle produces more tension filled matches. Freestyle produces more scoring, but it seems like a lot of matches finish 10 to 0.

I wouldn't be opposed to adjusting the scoring. I would devalue the riding time point to all other scoring. Also I think that having every period start in neutral could be a simple change to encourage more activity. I skeptical of having more clocks, because I think it becomes more difficult to manage.

 

[bnicolls]

I would much rather see the wrestler who scored the takedown given the option to restart on their feet without awarding an escape point.

I like this or the takedown for 3 pts.

Unrelated question. Many wrestlers are backing up and on their skates running from our guys, and counting on a counter move till the last 30 seconds. We all know who they are. Are our guys able to simply back up into the inner circle and motion (a la NEO with their fingers) to "come here"?

Seeing RBY and others Ham it up with a little Ali dance while backing up is BS. Maybe going back to the IC wastes time, but we have little chance of takedowns anyway if these guys are on their skates. Might as well stand around in the IC until they show up to wrestle

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I like this or the takedown for 3 pts.

Unrelated question. Many wrestlers are backing up and on their skates running from our guys, and counting on a counter move till the last 30 seconds. We all know who they are. Are our guys able to simply back up into the inner circle and motion (a la NEO with their fingers) to "come here"?

Seeing RBY and others Ham it up with a little Ali dance while backing up is BS. Maybe going back to the IC wastes time, but we have little chance of takedowns anyway if these guys are on their skates. Might as well stand around in the IC until they show up to wrestle

Basically what Spencer did at the start of the 3rd period (at about 9:30) as Courtney kept backing up, which is what 90% of Iowa's opponents do, especially wrestlers from PSU and Ok State.

 

[HawkFan1986]

Basically what Spencer did at the start of the 3rd period (at about 9:30) as Courtney kept backing up, which is what 90% of Iowa's opponents do, especially wrestlers from PSU and Ok State.

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God, that match was such a joke. Actually, almost every match at last year finals was a joke. I can’t believe the powers that be weren’t embarrassed to make significant rule changes after. The biggest showcase night in folk style, and it ends with people skating background and standing around. So, I’m sure we’ll see it happen again. Make changes or risk loosing your showcase and fans.

 

[MVPFAN]

Basically what Spencer did at the start of the 3rd period (at about 9:30) as Courtney kept backing up, which is what 90% of Iowa's opponents do, especially wrestlers from PSU and Ok State.

View embedded media

Spencer had a 4-0 lead at that point. Courtney could either come to him or dance away a loss.

 

[cheaptilt42]

I don't like the idea of going to freestyle. Our folkstyle definitely needs some additional changes for sure. I just don't want to give up on what we have totally. Nothing worse than getting caught in a lace and having a match ended in 10 seconds. JMHO

 

[Mendoza77]

I've been reading these posts about stalling and rule changes -- now for my two cents.

1 - What would happen if a D1 ref very aggressively called stalling - I'm talking VERY aggressive, like the moment a wrestler takes more than one step backwards, he gets a stall call. How about calling someone for stalling twice within 15 seconds? Why not?! Reality is that the ref would most likely be chastised by other refs, coaches, etc. But if numerous refs called stalling very aggressively, then it could become the norm.

2 - Like others, I'm a huge fan of folkstyle, much more than freestyle. The challenge is to change the mentality of wrestlers, so that a majority of them are similar to Lee (Spencer and Nick), DeSanto, Ironside, T&T Brands, Nolf, Taylor, Hamiti, etc., guys who are constantly attacking. The problem is that, by the time wrestlers are in college, they've developed a style, a mentality that's almost impossible to change. SOOOO.....TEACH AGGRESSION WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG!!!! TAKEDOWNS, TURNS AND PINS!!!! Not so much control, but rather score and pin as much as possible. As Spencer said in a high school interview, "I just love scoring points."

3 - Reality is that it's very difficult to turn good wrestlers. The only time that riding is exciting is if the bottom guy is going crazy trying to escape and the top guy is doing all he can to keep control. Absent that type of flurry, if the refs are super quick to call stalling on BOTH top and bottom, there will be A LOT more action and scoring. Bottom guy will go crazy trying to get out, to avoid getting stalled out of the match, and top guy will either turn him or release him to avoid getting stalled out. [Edit: Remember Gable yelling at the ref to call the Iowa wrestler for stalling?! Awesome! Anyone remember who the wrestler was?]

So, in summary, if I'm in charge of the world of folkstyle wrestling, my two changes would be super aggressive stall calls, and drill it into young kids that all that matters is takedowns, turns and pins.

 

[el dub]

And that wouldn't have happened with a pushout rule. That's the point.

Yeah. I was wondering what I was missing there for that obvious answer to not be so for some. Lpl

 

[Hammer93]

I would much rather see the wrestler who scored the takedown given the option to restart on their feet without awarding an escape point.

Love that idea. Wow, seriously. That makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Hammer93]

I've been reading these posts about stalling and rule changes -- now for my two cents.

1 - What would happen if a D1 ref very aggressively called stalling - I'm talking VERY aggressive, like the moment a wrestler takes more than one step backwards, he gets a stall call. How about calling someone for stalling twice within 15 seconds? Why not?! Reality is that the ref would most likely be chastised by other refs, coaches, etc. But if numerous refs called stalling very aggressively, then it could become the norm.

2 - Like others, I'm a huge fan of folkstyle, much more than freestyle. The challenge is to change the mentality of wrestlers, so that a majority of them are similar to Lee (Spencer and Nick), DeSanto, Ironside, T&T Brands, Nolf, Taylor, Hamiti, etc., guys who are constantly attacking. The problem is that, by the time wrestlers are in college, they've developed a style, a mentality that's almost impossible to change. SOOOO.....TEACH AGGRESSION WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG!!!! TAKEDOWNS, TURNS AND PINS!!!! Not so much control, but rather score and pin as much as possible. As Spencer said in a high school interview, "I just love scoring points."

3 - Reality is that it's very difficult to turn good wrestlers. The only time that riding is exciting is if the bottom guy is going crazy trying to escape and the top guy is doing all he can to keep control. Absent that type of flurry, if the refs are super quick to call stalling on BOTH top and bottom, there will be A LOT more action and scoring. Bottom guy will go crazy trying to get out, to avoid getting stalled out of the match, and top guy will either turn him or release him to avoid getting stalled out. [Edit: Remember Gable yelling at the ref to call the Iowa wrestler for stalling?! Awesome! Anyone remember who the wrestler was?]

So, in summary, if I'm in charge of the world of folkstyle wrestling, my two changes would be super aggressive stall calls, and drill it into young kids that all that matters is takedowns, turns and pins.

I think they could shorten the period also to keep fatigue from coming into play so much. Short periods and add the the rules you stated above. I also like if after a TD the wrestler can choose up and they both go their feet without the escape point being awarded.

 

[vhsalum]

Yeah. I was wondering what I was missing there for that obvious answer to not be so for some. Lpl

But you ARE missing it. The best part about instituting a push out rule is - we already have a case study for it. We don't have to imagine what it would look like, we don't have to question what the unintended consequences are.

It's only created more exciting wrestling.

1. 3 point takedown. it's absolutely insane that an escape is worth 50% of a takedown.

2. 1 point pushout. We already know. Guys will circle back, and edge wrestling will actually be exciting

3. actually call stalling. There is absolutely NO REASON a 3 minute period should end 0-0, and no one got called for stalling. In every match, ANYONE can see that one person is wrestling to score less than another guy.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I was just talking about this. If the bottom wrestler gets out without you wanting them to, then they earned their escape point. Also, a 3 point takedown would just lead to more stalling because now guys have an even bigger lead.

I think a pushout point and the ability to cut a guy without giving up an escape point would do our sport wonders.

I am definitely in favor of some change(s), but if you had a push out point rule, would that only apply to when both grapplers are in neutral? Because if a top man could "ride" the bottom man out of bounds for a point every time, then I think that the dynamic of many matches would be reduced to the top man purposely horsing the bottom man out of bounds over and over.

 

[Mr. Royce]

Absolutely NO to a push out rule. Do you realize how much smaller the mat becomes? And it eliminates scoring on the edge. No thank you. Refs need to simply call stalling. Letting kids back to the edge and hang out there is a joke. And as referenced earlier, go watch the big 12 149 pound final. All Okie St did was try to push ob.

 

[TS568]

Someone posted the 1987 Iowa-ISU dual on here last week and what I was reminded of is that the Bull-Cenzo sequences that everyone references used happen at least a few times in the dual. When Mitch Kelly got under hooks he wasn’t trying to run Carr out of bounds for stalling, he was throwing him for 2 and 3 backs. The most exciting moment at Big 10s was when Gomez (who’s not my favorite guy) threw Lovett viciously to his back. Most youth clubs/coaches now would discourage throwing as “junk” but it’s exciting as hell, often effective and is great for the sport.

 

[vhsalum]

Absolutely NO to a push out rule. Do you realize how much smaller the mat becomes? And it eliminates scoring on the edge. No thank you. Refs need to simply call stalling. Letting kids back to the edge and hang out there is a joke. And as referenced earlier, go watch the big 12 149 pound final. All Okie St did was try to push ob.

watch freestyle. there's a LOT of scoring on the edge. and a ton of fun to watch

 

[MVPFAN]

I am definitely in favor of some change(s), but if you had a push out point rule, would that only apply to when both grapplers are in neutral? Because if a top man could "ride" the bottom man out of bounds for a point every time, then I think that the dynamic of many matches would be reduced to the top man purposely horsing the bottom man out of bounds over and over.

Yes, would have to be only applicable to neutral.

 

[vhsalum]

I am definitely in favor of some change(s), but if you had a push out point rule, would that only apply to when both grapplers are in neutral? Because if a top man could "ride" the bottom man out of bounds for a point every time, then I think that the dynamic of many matches would be reduced to the top man purposely horsing the bottom man out of bounds over and over.

only apply to neutral

 

[MVPFAN]

watch freestyle. there's a LOT of scoring on the edge. and a ton of fun to watch

Plus you can have a push out but still allow continuation of action with the same edge scoring rules we have now. Just award the step out point but don't blow the whistle to stop action.

 

[GoHawks1996]

I am definitely in favor of some change(s), but if you had a push out point rule, would that only apply to when both grapplers are in neutral? Because if a top man could "ride" the bottom man out of bounds for a point every time, then I think that the dynamic of many matches would be reduced to the top man purposely horsing the bottom man out of bounds over and over.

Only in neutral, similar to freestyle. You'd have to do something about people dropping to their knees like fix does against Gilman, make it a caution or stall warning.

 

[thedecider]

I am all for eliminating RT and eliminating escape points. I don't see why we can't let the ref make a judgement "stalemate" type call and restart the guys in neutral. Even if you manage to escape quickly on your own accord, no points.

 

[MVPFAN]

Absolutely NO to a push out rule. Do you realize how much smaller the mat becomes? And it eliminates scoring on the edge. No thank you. Refs need to simply call stalling. Letting kids back to the edge and hang out there is a joke. And as referenced earlier, go watch the big 12 149 pound final. All Okie St did was try to push ob.

We keep saying that but they never call it.

 

[el dub]

But you ARE missing it. The best part about instituting a push out rule is - we already have a case study for it. We don't have to imagine what it would look like, we don't have to question what the unintended consequences are.

It's only created more exciting wrestling.

1. 3 point takedown. it's absolutely insane that an escape is worth 50% of a takedown.

2. 1 point pushout. We already know. Guys will circle back, and edge wrestling will actually be exciting

3. actually call stalling. There is absolutely NO REASON a 3 minute period should end 0-0, and no one got called for stalling. In every match, ANYONE can see that one person is wrestling to score less than another guy.

I’m all for the push out rule and have been for some time. So, there….

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

We keep saying that but they never call it.

Correct. ^^ Relying on dozens or hundreds, or even thousands, of different referees to perceive AND call stalling is NEVER going to happen. Rules need to be tweaked to cause the two combatants to solve it for themselves.

The beauty of wrestling is it is one on one, man v. man...anything that relies on someone else to "fix" it is a flawed approach and look what we have now.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I am definitely in favor of some change(s), but if you had a push out point rule, would that only apply to when both grapplers are in neutral? Because if a top man could "ride" the bottom man out of bounds for a point every time, then I think that the dynamic of many matches would be reduced to the top man purposely horsing the bottom man out of bounds over and over.

That would have to be known as the Starocci rule.........

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Correct. ^^ Relying on dozens or hundreds, or even thousands, of different referees to perceive AND call stalling is NEVER going to happen. Rules need to be tweaked to cause the two combatants to solve it for themselves.

The beauty of wrestling is it is one on one, man v. man...anything that relies on someone else to "fix" it is a flawed approach and look what we have now.

And that's why the 3 pt takedown is the best choice for change......