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Is Obama getting ready to muzzle Dave Ramsey, Suze Ormond and Jim Cramer?

The Tradition

HB King
Apr 23, 2002
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Popular financial radio show host Dave Ramsey caused a firestorm on Twitter last week when he weighed in against the “fiduciary rule”—the controversial pending Department of Labor regulation that would impose new restrictions on a vast swath of financial professionals who handle IRAs and 401(k) accounts. Yet, Ramsey was only echoing concerns about the costs of the rule already expressed by Members of Congress from both parties.

Ramsey Tweeted, “this Obama rule will kill the Middle Class and below ability to access personal advice.” A war of Tweets then broke out between opponents of the rule, and supporters, the latter of which includes fee-based investment advisers expected to benefit from the new costs the rule will shower on their broker competitors.

Fittingly, even before Ramsey came out against the rule, one of his critics called for using the rule against Ramsey, supposedly for providing advice said critic deemed harmful to savers. In an October article in LifeHealthPro, an online trade journal for insurance agents and financial advisers, Michael Markey, an insurance agent and owner of Legacy Financial Network, called for Ramsey to “be regulated and to be held accountable” by the government for the opinions he gives to listeners. Markey hailed the Labor Department rule as ushering a new era in which “entertainers like Dave Ramsey can no longer evade the pursuit of regulatory oversight.”

Experts both for and against the rule I have talked to agree its broad reach could extend to financial media personalities who offer tips to individual audience members, a group that includes not just Ramsey but TV hosts like Suze Orman and Jim Cramer, as well as many other broadcasters who opine on business and investment matters. They would be ensnared by the rule’s broad redefinition of a vast swath of financial professionals as “fiduciaries” and its mandate that these “fiduciaries” only serve the “best interest” of IRA and 401(k) holders.

The main focus of the Labor Department rule has been its likely effects on brokers and their customers. The rule creates a presumption against brokers taking third-party commissions from mutual funds they sell to savers. Because of this, savers who currently pay only a small commission on the execution of an order may have to pay a much larger fee based on a percentage of their assets, which would drive some brokers to simply stop serving middle-income investors. As I note in a new report for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, similar restrictions in Great Britain have caused a “guidance gap” in which brokers have largely stopped serving brokers with assets less than £150,000 ($240,000).

But the potential chilling effect of this rule on free financial discussion in the media is even more frightening. Kent Mason, a partner at the law firm Davis & Harman who has testified before Congress on the ill effects of the fiduciary rule, strongly disagrees with Markey that Ramsey and others should be shut up. But, worryingly, he says Markey is mostly right in his interpretation of the fiduciary rule’s ability to muzzle financial personalities.

“Under the proposed regulation, investment advice from a radio host to a caller regarding the caller’s own investment issues would appear to be fiduciary advice if the advice addresses specific investments,” Mason said in an email. It doesn’t matter that Ramsey and other hosts aren’t compensated by listeners, he adds, as the DOL rule explicitly covers those who give investment advice and receive compensation “from any source.” Mason agrees with Markey that the compensation Ramsey receives from radio stations that carry his show and from book sales are enough to define Ramsey as a “fiduciary” under the rule.

Though the rule does contain an exemption for “recommendations made to the general public,” this wouldn’t protect Ramsey and other radio and television personalities if they gave specific answers to callers or audience members, argue both Mason and Markey. Similarly, Mason adds, while the main part of investment seminars would be exempt, “if during the seminar, someone from the audience asks a question about his or her situation and the speaker answers the question with respect to specific investments, that answer would be fiduciary advice.”

Such limits on financial discussion may seem to violate the First Amendment on its face. But a lawsuit against such restrictions would not be a slam dunk, as this is largely uncharted legal territory. Courts have tread lightly on financial regulation that may harm free speech. In Lowe v. SEC, 472 U.S. 181 (1985), the Supreme Court did strike down a ban by the Securities and Exchange Commission on an investment newsletter published by a convicted felon. But the opinion did not touch upon constitutional issues, as the Court ruled that the law itself – different from the Employee Retirement Income Security Act that governs the Labor Department – applied only to person-to-person, rather than general, advice.

To my knowledge, there has never been a federal court ruling on whether restrictions on financial advice offered to individuals in a public forum would violate the First Amendment. In any event, even if this aspect of the rule were eventually ruled unconstitutional, it may take years before such cases wind their way through the courts, and the free flow of financial discussion would be chilled until such a ruling occurs.

All the more reason for the Labor Department to withdraw the fiduciary rule as written. If it does not do so, Congress must perform its fiduciary duty to the American people and throw out this regulation that is definitely not in savers’ “best interest.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnber...l-broadcasters-like-dave-ramsey/#33cf3779e696
 
Popular financial radio show host Dave Ramsey caused a firestorm on Twitter last week when he weighed in against the “fiduciary rule”—the controversial pending Department of Labor regulation that would impose new restrictions on a vast swath of financial professionals who handle IRAs and 401(k) accounts. Yet, Ramsey was only echoing concerns about the costs of the rule already expressed by Members of Congress from both parties.

Ramsey Tweeted, “this Obama rule will kill the Middle Class and below ability to access personal advice.” A war of Tweets then broke out between opponents of the rule, and supporters, the latter of which includes fee-based investment advisers expected to benefit from the new costs the rule will shower on their broker competitors.

Fittingly, even before Ramsey came out against the rule, one of his critics called for using the rule against Ramsey, supposedly for providing advice said critic deemed harmful to savers. In an October article in LifeHealthPro, an online trade journal for insurance agents and financial advisers, Michael Markey, an insurance agent and owner of Legacy Financial Network, called for Ramsey to “be regulated and to be held accountable” by the government for the opinions he gives to listeners. Markey hailed the Labor Department rule as ushering a new era in which “entertainers like Dave Ramsey can no longer evade the pursuit of regulatory oversight.”

Experts both for and against the rule I have talked to agree its broad reach could extend to financial media personalities who offer tips to individual audience members, a group that includes not just Ramsey but TV hosts like Suze Orman and Jim Cramer, as well as many other broadcasters who opine on business and investment matters. They would be ensnared by the rule’s broad redefinition of a vast swath of financial professionals as “fiduciaries” and its mandate that these “fiduciaries” only serve the “best interest” of IRA and 401(k) holders.

The main focus of the Labor Department rule has been its likely effects on brokers and their customers. The rule creates a presumption against brokers taking third-party commissions from mutual funds they sell to savers. Because of this, savers who currently pay only a small commission on the execution of an order may have to pay a much larger fee based on a percentage of their assets, which would drive some brokers to simply stop serving middle-income investors. As I note in a new report for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, similar restrictions in Great Britain have caused a “guidance gap” in which brokers have largely stopped serving brokers with assets less than £150,000 ($240,000).

But the potential chilling effect of this rule on free financial discussion in the media is even more frightening. Kent Mason, a partner at the law firm Davis & Harman who has testified before Congress on the ill effects of the fiduciary rule, strongly disagrees with Markey that Ramsey and others should be shut up. But, worryingly, he says Markey is mostly right in his interpretation of the fiduciary rule’s ability to muzzle financial personalities.

“Under the proposed regulation, investment advice from a radio host to a caller regarding the caller’s own investment issues would appear to be fiduciary advice if the advice addresses specific investments,” Mason said in an email. It doesn’t matter that Ramsey and other hosts aren’t compensated by listeners, he adds, as the DOL rule explicitly covers those who give investment advice and receive compensation “from any source.” Mason agrees with Markey that the compensation Ramsey receives from radio stations that carry his show and from book sales are enough to define Ramsey as a “fiduciary” under the rule.

Though the rule does contain an exemption for “recommendations made to the general public,” this wouldn’t protect Ramsey and other radio and television personalities if they gave specific answers to callers or audience members, argue both Mason and Markey. Similarly, Mason adds, while the main part of investment seminars would be exempt, “if during the seminar, someone from the audience asks a question about his or her situation and the speaker answers the question with respect to specific investments, that answer would be fiduciary advice.”

Such limits on financial discussion may seem to violate the First Amendment on its face. But a lawsuit against such restrictions would not be a slam dunk, as this is largely uncharted legal territory. Courts have tread lightly on financial regulation that may harm free speech. In Lowe v. SEC, 472 U.S. 181 (1985), the Supreme Court did strike down a ban by the Securities and Exchange Commission on an investment newsletter published by a convicted felon. But the opinion did not touch upon constitutional issues, as the Court ruled that the law itself – different from the Employee Retirement Income Security Act that governs the Labor Department – applied only to person-to-person, rather than general, advice.

To my knowledge, there has never been a federal court ruling on whether restrictions on financial advice offered to individuals in a public forum would violate the First Amendment. In any event, even if this aspect of the rule were eventually ruled unconstitutional, it may take years before such cases wind their way through the courts, and the free flow of financial discussion would be chilled until such a ruling occurs.

All the more reason for the Labor Department to withdraw the fiduciary rule as written. If it does not do so, Congress must perform its fiduciary duty to the American people and throw out this regulation that is definitely not in savers’ “best interest.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnber...l-broadcasters-like-dave-ramsey/#33cf3779e696
I like Dave and he has a great deal of wisdom but Americans want stuff and they will load the credit cards to achieve it...I am as guilty as the next person.
 
Kill the middle class seems a little over the top.
I think the new rules add transparency and encourage service providers to have their clients best interests at heart. And, not be shilling some product that doesn't meet the goals of the person sitting in front of them.
 
Kill the middle class seems a little over the top.
I think the new rules add transparency and encourage service providers to have their clients best interests at heart. And, not be shilling some product that doesn't meet the goals of the person sitting in front of them.

But should that apply to media personalities? Obviously, there's not enough time or opportunity to analyze the entire financial picture for a caller on Dave's radio show, or an audience member asking a question of Suze at one of her events.
 
I don't believe it's clear beyond this Twitterstorm that the rule will be applied to on air personalities. That being said it might be nice to see who is buttering Suze Orman's bread as a disclaimer before she goes on the air.
 
Story says Dave is referencing what happened in the U.K. when similar rules were enacted.
Then he's wrong about what happened in the UK and what's happening in the US. The whole world is changing. This is a Trump response. The whole world is changing, but lets blame something small and understandable versus the larger, less manageable trends.
 
I don't really have an opinion on this either way, but it sounds like a good case for the courts to clarify.
 
Kill the middle class seems a little over the top.
I think the new rules add transparency and encourage service providers to have their clients best interests at heart. And, not be shilling some product that doesn't meet the goals of the person sitting in front of them.

Well, the quote is "this Obama rule will kill the Middle Class and below ability to access personal advice", so that's not quite as drastic of a statement.
 
I do not believe Ramsey, or the Suze are licensed to legally offer advise on the above subjects. That being said, they are selling a cookie cutter approach to help sell their books and programs. There is a lot on the insurance and investing side they talk about in general and not in specifics.
It is Vanguard and Fidelity that is pushing this rule and yes it will push out the face to face individual service that they cannot provide and that most people would prefer.
 
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I do not believe Ramsey, or the Suze are licensed to legally offer advise on the above subjects. That being said, they are selling a cookie cutter approach to help sell their books and programs. There is a lot on the insurance and investing side they talk about in general and not in specifics.
It is Vanguard and Fidelity that is pushing this rule and yes it will push out the face to face individual service that they cannot provide and that most people would prefer.

As a whole, "we the people" are pretty ignorant financially. For way too many...perhaps a majority, of investors, these "shows" are their only real insights into the financial market. At best, these folks offer only a "cookie cutter" approach for the financial futures of Americans.
On the other hand, Obama should not be overly concerned about protecting us from our own ignorance. The idea behind the regulation is solid.....but there is a downside to it. A solid certified financial planner is as important as one's future as is their attorney, their mechanic or their favorite bar.
 
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Here is the problem. So someone wants to put 100 bucks a month in a Roth. Let's say the cost going in is 5 percent. That is 60 bucks per year. So you can't do that anymore so you pay someone 125 bucks per year for "advice". It is going to hurt the middle class who want maybe a simple target fund and put away a little bit every month. Most firms have a minimum for assets or you pay more of a fee. Again, hurts the middle class.
 
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This is a fringe topic within a much bigger issue. The quote about killing the middle class's access to investment advice is spot on. Under a fiduciary responsibility under the Dept of Labor, financial advisors are open to being sued in criminal courts rather than through industry regulator FINRA. So if retirement accounts are "fee only" and let's say that fee is 1% of assets, the financial advisor will determine what asset level is the minimum amount they are willing to take on with the newly added risk of potentially going to court. You could easily see the better ones just saying "it's not worth the risk to take on anyone without 500k."

So, as almost always, unneccessary regulation comes in under the guise of helping the little guy only to the detriment of said little guy.
 
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If an advisor is getting 1% as a trail fee in a 401k, they will be taking on every single client they can. Currently my advisors receive 2% on first year contributions with a 0.10% trail. After year 1 the commissions go to 0.50% on contributions.

With that said, its going to kill people trying to get in the industry.
 
That's not true. If anything you will see an exodus of experienced advisors then an influx of new people with no knowledge.
 
I havn't listened to Dave Ramsey in a while but I'm not sure that he qualifies. I never remember him recommending specific investments. It's not like he's on the radio telling people what stocks they should buy.
 
Obama was not licensed to sell insurance in any of the 50 states yet he pushed a criminal fraudulent health plan
 
If an advisor is getting 1% as a trail fee in a 401k, they will be taking on every single client they can. Currently my advisors receive 2% on first year contributions with a 0.10% trail. After year 1 the commissions go to 0.50% on contributions.

With that said, its going to kill people trying to get in the industry.

You are talking 401K and I understand that. But for someone who just wants to put away like a 100 bucks a month, they aren't going to take that. A lot of firms already have amounts. If you have XX you get to talk to an advisor, if you have a smaller amount, we have a phone bank, and if you have even a smaller amount you need to just do it online.

The rule is going to hurt the middle class who doesn't have 500,000 in assets.
 
how can anything be criminal if it is "the law"? OiT...ACA is now "law". Get over it.
it's criminal because it takes away our old plans, and he twisted and lied about his his new plan , to put our old plans down, to replace them with his new plan that offered worse coverage at a higher price, and he was not licensed to do so. criminal. on the scale of a Bernie madoff
 
so the irony here is Obama getting ready to muzzle licensed or un-licensed folks for giving advice when he does the same criminal activity
 
it's criminal because it takes away our old plans, and he twisted and lied about his his new plan , to put our old plans down, to replace them with his new plan that offered worse coverage at a higher price, and he was not licensed to do so. criminal. on the scale of a Bernie madoff

The old plans were increasing premiums every year by 10%. The old system was broken and did nothing to address costs.

Obamacare is basically group plans before the ACA. No pre x is what makes premiums off the charts.

What do you think about the BS concept of selling across state lines to lower premiums? Wingers think this will lower premiums?

What do you think OIT? Do you think selling across state lines will lower premiums?
 
Let's look at Cramer. He makes stock picks on a cable news network. Doesn't he enjoy freedom of the press in this endeavor?
 
The old plans were increasing premiums every year by 10%. The old system was broken and did nothing to address costs.

Obamacare is basically group plans before the ACA. No pre x is what makes premiums off the charts.

What do you think about the BS concept of selling across state lines to lower premiums? Wingers think this will lower premiums?

What do you think OIT? Do you think selling across state lines will lower premiums?
yes, absolutely I'm 100% for selling across state lines, I'm a licensed agent. it's not a winger made up thing, competition does lower premiums. and you are right, the no pre-existing thing is what makes premiums go off the charts.

here is the deal: we took about 50-60 years building up the fine system we had. I sold major medical insurance beginning around 1986. so I have about 30 years experience with it. around 1989 I had a well connected manager in the insurance industry tell me to quit selling health insurance, individual major meds. I did not see what he was saying, at that time, but all through the 1990's I started to realize, it was a headache and a money loser, for the agents, and the companies. basically, the companies were at that time basically selling blocks of business. Massachusetts and ny blocked themselves out, with state laws and regulations, but most of the states had basically the same premiums and plans and you basically could look at my rate sheets for Oklahoma and texas and the plans would be about the same as Nebraska and Missouri, so we were close to getting it where we could sell across state lines, most states.

the two issues we would have had to deal with were: individual state laws { like NY and Mass} and the McCarran ferguson act, which precludes the feds, however you are correct, group plans prior to the aca started becoming universal and started becoming where mobile where one could go state to state and move and stuff, have some uniformity. the aca is a group plan. however, for there to be any hope of an insurance company not paying a claim with the aca { that's their plan, to bring in money and not pay claims} they would have to make the coverage garbage. which they did. I was at my doctor's office and he was complaining that since the aca they won't pay, deny claims, deny procedures. especially since they cannot deny people coverage now due to health reasons, they rectify that with crappy aca policies.

We had in many states, state risk pools, prior to the aca. Obama lied about that and acted like the pools did not exist. this took care of the unhealthy.

What I see happening is a nationwide risk pool, like the aca. then individual companies getting to underwrite premium policies, state by state, able to sell across state lines if they wish, or not if the don't wish { like in NY and Mass.} and if you want a mobile , nationwide policy , go to the pool, are healthy want a premium policy, go to the indy underwritten plan. boom. done. this is also how it should be done if we ever have medicare for all: have indy med supps, and a pool. Obama did not understand risk pools evidently and just put it all on UnitedHealth, I think he wants to bail them out like GM.
 
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This is a fringe topic within a much bigger issue. The quote about killing the middle class's access to investment advice is spot on. Under a fiduciary responsibility under the Dept of Labor, financial advisors are open to being sued in criminal courts rather than through industry regulator FINRA. So if retirement accounts are "fee only" and let's say that fee is 1% of assets, the financial advisor will determine what asset level is the minimum amount they are willing to take on with the newly added risk of potentially going to court. You could easily see the better ones just saying "it's not worth the risk to take on anyone without 500k."

So, as almost always, unneccessary regulation comes in under the guise of helping the little guy only to the detriment of said little guy.

Spot on. This will kill access as advisors are only going to want to work with clients that are worth their time and risk.

The most important part of wealth management is often overlooked. People always focus on stock, bond, or fund picks. What they should focus on is estate planning and how taxation affects your wealth, prior to retirement, after retirement, and upon death.
 
Spot on. This will kill access as advisors are only going to want to work with clients that are worth their time and risk.

The most important part of wealth management is often overlooked. People always focus on stock, bond, or fund picks. What they should focus on is estate planning and how taxation affects your wealth, prior to retirement, after retirement, and upon death.
I have a good friend who is licensed as a 6 and 63 or whatever all those numbers are, securities, financial planner, who told me about two or three years ago there were lots of new fed regulations coming and it's almost not worth it to sell his products any longer, almost. I wonder if these regs were what he was speaking of?
 
yes, absolutely I'm 100% for selling across state lines, I'm a licensed agent. it's not a winger made up thing, competition does lower premiums. and you are right, the no pre-existing thing is what makes premiums go off the charts.

here is the deal: we took about 50-60 years building up the fine system we had. I sold major medical insurance beginning around 1986. so I have about 30 years experience with it. around 1989 I had a well connected manager in the insurance industry tell me to quit selling health insurance, individual major meds. I did not see what he was saying, at that time, but all through the 1990's I started to realize, it was a headache and a money loser, for the agents, and the companies. basically, the companies were at that time basically selling blocks of business. Massachusetts and ny blocked themselves out, with state laws and regulations, but most of the states had basically the same premiums and plans and you basically could look at my rate sheets for Oklahoma and texas and the plans would be about the same as Nebraska and Missouri, so we were close to getting it where we could sell across state lines, most states.

the two issues we would have had to deal with were: individual state laws { like NY and Mass} and the McCarran ferguson act, which precludes the feds, however you are correct, group plans prior to the aca started becoming universal and started becoming where mobile where one could go state to state and move and stuff, have some uniformity. the aca is a group plan. however, for there to be any hope of an insurance company not paying a claim with the aca { that's their plan, to bring in money and not pay claims} they would have to make the coverage garbage. which they did. I was at my doctor's office and he was complaining that since the aca they won't pay, deny claims, deny procedures. especially since they cannot deny people coverage now due to health reasons, they rectify that with crappy aca policies.

We had in many states, state risk pools, prior to the aca. Obama lied about that and acted like the pools did not exist. this took care of the unhealthy.

What I see happening is a nationwide risk pool, like the aca. then individual companies getting to underwrite premium policies, state by state, able to sell across state lines if they wish, or not if the don't wish { like is NY and Mass.} and if you want a mobile , nationwide policy , go to the pool, are healthy want a premium policy, go to the indy underwritten plan. boom. done. this is also how it should be done if we ever have medicare for all: have indy med supps, and a pool. Obama did not understand risk pools evidently and just put it all on UnitedHealth, I think he wants to bail them out like GM.

You're a smart dude. You should post with your non-conspiracy hat on more often.


(If the aliens will allow it)
 
You're a smart dude. You should post with your non-conspiracy hat on more often.


(If the aliens will allow it)
I am smart when it comes to insurance and a few other things. I generally need to apply it better than I have. I am too smart by half, as rush Limbaugh says.
 
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