Is the 12-Year-Old $7.25 Minimum Wage Enough Anywhere In America?

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Serious question, are we just making up the negative ramifications of increasing the minimum wage and regurgitating what we heard from politicians and Facebook or is some of this actually backed by data? because it sure seems like a bunch of “and then inflation is going to happen and we will all go broke paying for more expensive spicy chicken sandwiches and then there will be bread lines and we are all going to die.” Here is an article from an economic think tank that is actually a proponent of an increased minimum wage.

Why the U.S. needs a $15 minimum wage: How the Raise the Wage Act would benefit U.S. workers and their families

This fact sheet was updated February 19 with a new section on tipped workers. The federal minimum hourly wage is just $7.25 and Congress has not increased it since 2009. Low wages hurt all workers and are particularly harmful to Black workers and other workers of color, especially women of...

www.epi.org

Good link. Thanks. Here's an excerpt:

The Raise the Wage Act of 2021 would gradually raise the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2025 and narrow racial and gender pay gaps. Here is what the Act would do:

• Raise the federal minimum wage to $9.50 this year and increase it in steps until it reaches $15 an hour in 2025.
• After 2025, adjust the minimum wage each year to keep pace with growth in the median wage, a measure of wages for typical workers.
• Phase out the egregious subminimum wage for tipped workers, which has been frozen at a meager $2.13 since 1991.
• Sunset unacceptable subminimum wages for workers with disabilities employed in sheltered workshops and for workers under age 20.

Sounds pretty good to me. I wasn't aware of the 2nd point and have been calling for it. Unfortunately, you can be quite sure the Rs will oppose that or any other inflation protection.

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

I guess I don’t understand what point you were trying to make. They were already making almost 4$ above the minimum wage.

If you can make $11 an hour at Wal-Mart to start, who is paying less?

Misread your question. My bad.

As to who currently makes the minimum, the DOL says that 540,000 workers currently make the bare federal minimum.

Most are in their early 20's, single w/ only a h.s. degree, in non-tipped service industry jobs - and most in southern states: Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Virginia.

 

[seminole97]

@What Would Jesus Do?

I have a few questions.

What’s an acceptable number of people to force into unemployment?

Why do to think you, or any other third party, is in position to declare what someone else’s time is worth to them, or their efforts to someone else?

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

Sorry if that came across as a criticism of you.

None taken!

 

[seminole97]

Sunset unacceptable subminimum wages for workers with disabilities employed in sheltered workshops and for workers under age 20.

First question, ‘unacceptable’ to whom?
Certainly not the person who willingly took the work.

The real minimum wage is zero dollars an hour, and that’s what pricing the least productive workers out of the market will guarantee.

Why do you want higher unemployment among the young and disabled?

 

[Chuck C]

Plus, even if all that is true, so what?

Would you be willing to pay a few cents more for spicy chicken, if it helped millions of Americans live less-impoverished lives? I know you would, and I bet even some conservatives would.

Plus, there's some guesswork here. Thoughtful guesswork from the CBO (I hope), not necessarily from the politicians.

So, for example, how much will be saved because some welfare programs for the poor will be used less?

Plus, we could easily pay the extra $5 billion a year the CBO estimates by rescinding a trivial fraction of the many ill-advised tax cuts we have seen this millennium.

Won’t the market just find the same equilibrium after the minimum wage increase? Once you raise the minimum wage up, won’t the price of goods and services rise too, or do you think companies will just accept smaller profit margins? Eventually you’ll be right back where you were. Sure, somebody will be making $15 an hour, but the actual buying power of that money will be diminished by the time it gets there.

 

[IAHawk2011]

Doesn’t pretty much every reasonable person agree that the minimum wage should be raised to $10-12 per hour? As dozens of people have already suggested on HROT, just set it to $10.50 and tie it to inflation so people can stfu about this topic.

 

[seminole97]

Doesn’t pretty much every reasonable person agree that the minimum wage should be raised to $10-12 per hour?

Why do you consider it reasonable to outlaw employment for the least productive?

What is reasonable to you about curtailing opportunities for the young to create wealth and build skills?

 

[Tom Paris]

Plus, even if all that is true, so what?

Would you be willing to pay a few cents more for spicy chicken, if it helped millions of Americans live less-impoverished lives? I know you would, and I bet even some conservatives would.

Plus, there's some guesswork here. Thoughtful guesswork from the CBO (I hope), not necessarily from the politicians.

So, for example, how much will be saved because some welfare programs for the poor will be used less?

Plus, we could easily pay the extra $5 billion a year the CBO estimates by rescinding a trivial fraction of the many ill-advised tax cuts we have seen this millennium.

I mean, it's not like the prices on pretty much everything don't go up WITHOUT raising a minimum wage in 11 years. It's greed. Like posted earlier, the people at the top keep doing better and better over the last 30 years...they have an insane amount of wealth...and most others are doing worse.

 

[Tom Paris]

Why do you consider it reasonable to outlaw employment for the least productive?

What is reasonable to you about curtailing opportunities for the young to create wealth and build skills?

Why do you like your tax dollars to get spent on welfare and food programs?

 

[Hawk_4shur]

In capitalism, the demand for workers is "supposed to" increase wages. But thanks to good old American ingenuity, businesses figure out how to make their workers more productive so they don't have to hire more. Or, they mechanize - bring in better equipment so they don't need as many employees.

The economy is a big "water balloon". Squeeze in one spot and it bulges in another. Squeeze too hard and it pops.

Minimum wage should have been indexed for inflation. Changes in the Tax Code should always be phased in. If they ever make changes to Medicare or SS, they should be gradual.

But, politicians want to make BIG changes that make BIG NEWS!

The minimum wage needs to be increased, at least for full time workers. You can't make it on $7.25/hr

 

[seminole97]

Why do you like your tax dollars to get spent on welfare and food programs?

I don’t.
Now please answer my questions regarding the consequences of your policy proposal:


Why do you consider it reasonable to outlaw employment for the least productive?

What is reasonable to you about curtailing opportunities for the young to create wealth and build skills?

 

[timinatoria]

i'm thinking 20$ an hr. maybe you shouldn't be in buisness if you can't afford to pay a deecent wage.

Just make it $30, then we don’t have to keep having this debate.

He’ll make it $40!! I just ended poverty folks!

You’re welcome.

 

[srams21]

Serious question, who actually makes only the minimum wage? Even McDonalds around here starts people off with no experience higher than that.

I’m curious as to what jobs actually pay the minimum wage to start.

Then that is actually a good argument to raise it. If no one actually makes the minimum wage, then it would do no harm by raising it a few bucks, right? I'm just talking logic here and not specific dollar amounts.

 

[srams21]

Exactly.
The maintenance man at the dealership where I work (part time, make a good bit above MW) makes $15 an hour and he's been there 12 years. He told me that if $15 becomes the new minimum he will expect to get $20 because of his knowledge of the buildings, how to fix stuff and just experience and reliability. So, yes, those folks will get an increase too.
Then the question is how much the price of products, goods and services will go up to cover their salaries?

See this is exactly the problem. Businesses are not paying people enough. That is a crap wage for an experienced maintenance person.

My Grandpa was a maintenance person for a plant. When he retired in 1989, he was making $16 an hour.

 

[DooBi]

I have a question. If you think employers are not paying the lowest earners more because of greed, why would you think employers do what is right and raise the wage of the workers currently making $15/hr?

 

[seminole97]

Then that is actually a good argument to raise it. If no one actually makes the minimum wage, then it would do no harm by raising it a few bucks, right? I'm just talking logic here and not specific dollar amounts.

The logic is simple.
Inflation, in due course, will obviate the government outlawing work below a certain wage because no one would be willing to accept the wage.
If you raise price at which the government outlaws employment above the level people are willing to offer and accept you'll start eliminating employment opportunities (and the wealth creation that goes with them).

But there are people who earn the minimum wage. Raising it will eliminate demand for that low skilled labor that can't return earnings above the government mandated rate.

"Only about 2 percent of Americans over the age of 24 earned the minimum wage." - Thomas Sowell

A fair percentage of those 2 percent are going to be people with disabilities that reduce their earning power. Apparently the Democrats are also interested in reducing some of them to the real minimum wage - $0/hr.

 

[goldmom]

See this is exactly the problem. Businesses are not paying people enough. That is a crap wage for an experienced maintenance person.

My Grandpa was a maintenance person for a plant. When he retired in 1989, he was making $16 an hour.

The guy is a good dude...he has a GED and this job gives him stability, benefits and a 401K. They also reimburse if he ever wanted to take college credits. His wife has a decent job and his kids are grown. He could have left for a better paying job but I think he likes it at the dealership.

 

[goldmom]

The logic is simple.
Inflation, in due course, will obviate the government outlawing work below a certain wage because no one would be willing to accept the wage.
If you raise price at which the government outlaws employment above the level people are willing to offer and accept you'll start eliminating employment opportunities (and the wealth creation that goes with them).

But there are people who earn the minimum wage. Raising it will eliminate demand for that low skilled labor that can't return earnings above the government mandated rate.

"Only about 2 percent of Americans over the age of 24 earned the minimum wage." - Thomas Sowell

A fair percentage of those 2 percent are going to be people with disabilities that reduce their earning power. Apparently the Democrats are also interested in reducing some of them to the real minimum wage - $0/hr.

Am I the only one who hasn't figured out that 97 was an Econ major? 😎

 

[srams21]

The guy is a good dude...he has a GED and this job gives him stability, benefits and a 401K. They also reimburse if he ever wanted to take college credits. His wife has a decent job and his kids are grown. He could have left for a better paying job but I think he likes it at the dealership.

Still a crap wage. My wife is an HR manager at a plant and they have pay their maintenance guys about $25 an hour with a 6% 401k match (dollar for dollar).

Between what you and Trad say, it honestly sounds like Florida pays like shit.

 

[hawkedoff]

Get rid of the minimum wage completely. Instead set a profitably wage. Tie the lowest wage earner as a percentage of the total comp of the ceo and executive team.

Any business below a set number of employees is exempt excluding franchises

 

[srams21]

The logic is simple.
Inflation, in due course, will obviate the government outlawing work below a certain wage because no one would be willing to accept the wage.
If you raise price at which the government outlaws employment above the level people are willing to offer and accept you'll start eliminating employment opportunities (and the wealth creation that goes with them).

But there are people who earn the minimum wage. Raising it will eliminate demand for that low skilled labor that can't return earnings above the government mandated rate.

"Only about 2 percent of Americans over the age of 24 earned the minimum wage." - Thomas Sowell

A fair percentage of those 2 percent are going to be people with disabilities that reduce their earning power. Apparently the Democrats are also interested in reducing some of them to the real minimum wage - $0/hr.

Your issue sounds like you don't believe in minimum wage at all. That's a completely different conversation.

$15 an hour is too high but most of the crap being flung at the wall by the Right on this issue has been fear-mongering. I heard the same thing 12 years ago when it was raised.

 

[seminole97]

In capitalism, the demand for workers is "supposed to" increase wages. But thanks to good old American ingenuity, businesses figure out how to make their workers more productive so they don't have to hire more. Or, they mechanize - bring in better equipment so they don't need as many employees.

Increasing worker productivity is actually what enables them to have higher earning power.

If the capitalist hands his employee a shovel, there's a limit in how much dirt he can move in an hour.
If the capitalist can put that employee in the seat of a back hoe (and the employee can learn how to use it - this is the skills part!) then he move a lot more dirt, and thus earn more money for his employer, and the employer can afford to pay him a higher wage.
Profits enable savings, and savings enable the purchase of additional capital equipment to enable higher productivity and higher living standards.
That's how capitalism works.

Now, it's also true putting one guy in a back hoe might mean he needs fewer shovellers, but that is going to free up labor for other enterprises that entrepreneurs are constantly creating (if he can't figure out new uses for them himself).
Getting the majority of our laborers out of the farm fields was the prerequisite to having the labor available to build the world around you that didn't exist before when most people were tilling the soil.

 

[seminole97]

Your issue sounds like you don't believe in minimum wage at all. That's a completely different conversation.

I believe it's all too real, and creates unemployment among the young and least skilled that otherwise wouldn't exist.
This is what logic and the data shows.
We'd have more wealth created, and more people gainfully employed instead of idle trying to figure out how to make a buck on the streets when the government won't let them make a buck legally.

 

[srams21]

I believe it's all too real, and creates unemployment among the young and least skilled that otherwise wouldn't exist.
This is what logic and the data shows.
We'd have more wealth created, and more people gainfully employed instead of idle trying to figure out how to make a buck on the streets when the government won't let them make a buck legally.

I disagree. I haven't seen any data that says that.

Did you see what the US was like prior to minimum wage? And prior to some basic safety regulations? I don't want to go back to 1890. No thanks.

 

[seminole97]

I disagree. I haven't seen any data that says that.

Did you see what the US was like prior to minimum wage? And prior to some basic safety regulations? I don't want to go back to 1890. No thanks.

"From the late nineteenth-century on through the middle of the twentieth century, the labor force participation rate of American blacks was slightly higher than that of American whites. In other words, blacks were just as employable as the wages they received as whites were at their very different wages. The minimum wage law changed that. Before federal minimum wage laws were instituted in the 1930s, the black unemployment rate was slightly lower than the white unemployment rate in 1930. But then followed the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) of 1933 and the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938 – all of which imposed government-mandated minimum wages, either on a particular sector or more broadly.

The National Labor Relations Act of 1935, which promoted unionization, also tended to price black workers out of jobs, in addition to union rules that kept blacks from jobs by barring them from union membership. The NIRA raised wages in the Southern textile industry by 70 percent in just five months and its impact nationwide was estimated to have cost blacks half a million jobs. While this Act was later declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, the FLSA was upheld by the High Court and became the major force establishing a national minimum wage.

……

By 1954, black unemployment rates were double those of whites and have continued to be at that level or higher. Those particularly hard hit by the resulting unemployment have been black teenage males." - Thomas Sowell

 

[Tom Paris]

I don’t.
Now please answer my questions regarding the consequences of your policy proposal:


Why do you consider it reasonable to outlaw employment for the least productive?

What is reasonable to you about curtailing opportunities for the young to create wealth and build skills?

None of that is true so why would I answer?

 

[seminole97]

None of that is true so why would I answer?

If you think a minimum wage doesn't preclude employment, why are you such a piker and only asking for $15/hr?
Why not $100/hr to go ahead and end poverty.

Explain.

 

[srams21]

"From the late nineteenth-century on through the middle of the twentieth century, the labor force participation rate of American blacks was slightly higher than that of American whites. In other words, blacks were just as employable as the wages they received as whites were at their very different wages. The minimum wage law changed that. Before federal minimum wage laws were instituted in the 1930s, the black unemployment rate was slightly lower than the white unemployment rate in 1930. But then followed the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) of 1933 and the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938 – all of which imposed government-mandated minimum wages, either on a particular sector or more broadly.

The National Labor Relations Act of 1935, which promoted unionization, also tended to price black workers out of jobs, in addition to union rules that kept blacks from jobs by barring them from union membership. The NIRA raised wages in the Southern textile industry by 70 percent in just five months and its impact nationwide was estimated to have cost blacks half a million jobs. While this Act was later declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, the FLSA was upheld by the High Court and became the major force establishing a national minimum wage.

……

By 1954, black unemployment rates were double those of whites and have continued to be at that level or higher. Those particularly hard hit by the resulting unemployment have been black teenage males." - Thomas Sowell

Labor force is only one part of the equation. They were likely being paid like shit hence the higher labor force participation. Furthermore, racism was widespread back then and while Blacks had "jobs", how many owned property compared to today? How many had a legitimate middle class lifestyle? How many were in management jobs? Yea, I'm sure you don't want to talk about that.

Here in Iowa there are literally tons of jobs at meat packing plants that pay LESS today than they did 30 years ago with shittier benefits.

 

[Tom Paris]

Labor force is only one part of the equation. They were likely being paid like shit hence the higher labor force participation. Furthermore, racism was widespread back then and while Blacks had "jobs", how many owned property compared to today? How many had a legitimate middle class lifestyle? How many were in management jobs? Yea, I'm sure you don't want to talk about that.

Here in Iowa there are literally tons of jobs at meat packing plants that pay LESS today than they did 30 years ago with shittier benefits.

Yep. I'm done with him for today.

 

[seminole97]

Labor force is only one part of the equation. They were likely being paid like shit hence the higher labor force participation.

What's better, "shit" or zero?

Furthermore, racism was widespread back then and while Blacks had "jobs", how many owned property compared to today?

Yes, racism was WAY, WAY worse than now, and yet their unemployment was lower than now. That's why racists argued in favor of minimum wage laws. They understood the result that would follow and were happy with it.

I'm sure there were laws proscribing blacks from obtaining property, and those should have been and have been annulled and repealed, but they don't have anything to do with the deleterious effects of the minimum wage on black workers.

How do you get to middle class when you can't even get into the labor market?

 

[seminole97]

Yep. I'm done with him for today.

When you come back, take a crack at this:

"If you think a minimum wage doesn't preclude employment, why are you such a piker and only asking for $15/hr?
Why not $100/hr to go ahead and end poverty.
Explain."

 

[srams21]

What's better, "shit" or zero?



Yes, racism was WAY, WAY worse than now, and yet their unemployment was lower than now. That's why racists argued in favor of minimum wage laws. They understood the result that would follow and were happy with it.

I'm sure there were laws proscribing blacks from obtaining property, and those should have been and have been annulled and repealed, but they don't have anything to do with the deleterious effects of the minimum wage on black workers.

How do you get to middle class when you can't even get into the labor market?

I'm pretty sure my manager and VP would much rather live in today's world. They are both black females and wouldn't have had a prayer at the type of lifestyle they have 100 years ago.

Give it up dude.

 

[seminole97]

I'm pretty sure my manager and VP would much rather live in today's world.

But you're talking about different issues. Neither your manager nor your VP are low skill workers trying to gain employment.

They are both black females and wouldn't have had a prayer at the type of lifestyle they have 100 years ago.

But for reasons that have nothing to do with the minimum wage.

Give it up dude.

You like'd Tom's dodge, maybe you could answer this question for him:

"If you think a minimum wage doesn't preclude employment, why are you such a piker and only asking for $15/hr?
Why not $100/hr to go ahead and end poverty?
Explain. "

 

[thewop]

Enough to support a family of 4 on a single income? Nope. Enough for a high school kid that lives at home for a first job? Probably.

Too many people have too high of an expectation for what a minimum wage is supposed to do.

I'd raise it over time, but nobody should believe minimum wage should be enough for a single mom raising two kids to need no further government assistance. There's a good reason these are separate issues/programs.

 

[goldmom]

Still a crap wage. My wife is an HR manager at a plant and they have pay their maintenance guys about $25 an hour with a 6% 401k match (dollar for dollar).

Between what you and Trad say, it honestly sounds like Florida pays like shit.

Our cost of living is different. It's higher pay in certain areas and not in others.
But like I said, he could have left for a higher paying job making $5 an hour more. He likes being at the dealership.

 

[goldmom]

I'm pretty sure my manager and VP would much rather live in today's world. They are both black females and wouldn't have had a prayer at the type of lifestyle they have 100 years ago.

Give it up dude.

Neither would white females, for that matter. It wasn't until 101 years ago that any woman could even vote, or own property. So women of all races would rather live in today's world.

 

[srams21]

But you're talking about different issues. Neither your manager nor your VP are low skill workers trying to gain employment.



But for reasons that have nothing to do with the minimum wage.



You like'd Tom's dodge, maybe you could answer this question for him:

"If you think a minimum wage doesn't preclude employment, why are you such a piker and only asking for $15/hr?
Why not $100/hr to go ahead and end poverty?
Explain. "

They were once low skilled workers who started at the bottom.

The opportunity to move up would not have existed for them 100 years ago. Ergo, the only reason Black unemployment was so low then was because white business owners could get them much cheaper than whites.

Therefore, that economic environment was due to systemic racism and not a lack of minimum wage.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[seminole97]

They were once low skilled workers who started at the bottom.

Why deny someone else that same opportunity by cutting the bottom rungs off the employment ladder?

The opportunity to move up would not have existed for them 100 years ago.

Yes, but for reasons that have nothing to do with the the government outlawing employment for the least skilled.

Ergo, the only reason Black unemployment was so low then was because white business owners could get them much cheaper than whites.

Correct, they could employ them at profitable rates.
Once you remove that opportunity with a law forbidding profitable employment their unemployment increases.

Therefore, that economic environment was due to systemic racism and not a lack of minimum wage.

The country was undeniably more racist 90 years, yet employers were willing to overlook that and employ blacks at higher rates than whites.
That only changed after the minimum wage laws demanded by racists were enacted.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Indeed.
So, if wage floors don’t create unemployment, as Tom seems to think, why are you such pikers and not willing to put in a minimum wage that makes us all rich?
What do you think would happen?

 

[dandh]

View embedded media

What college kid made $6/hr. In 1979? That would have been extremely rare. $4 to $4.50 would have been good. If they could have even found a job, and many could not. Remember, it was 1979 and Jimmy "the disaster" Carter was president.