Is this a racial issue or more about inequity generally?

[billanole]

cliff notes on the article

You are lazy.


The death of George Floyd after being pinned to the ground in a neck chokehold by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, who was arrested on murder charges today, has sparked unrest across the country and become a political flashpoint — yet another example of a white officer unleashing deadly force on a black man.

But for former employees, DJs, and promoters who spent time at El Nuevo Rodeo, a popular Latin nightclub in southeast Minneapolis, the killing has provoked grief, rage, and also shock. Both Floyd, 46, and Chauvin, 44, worked as part-time security guards at the establishment. How was it possible, many asked, that such violence had exploded between two former coworkers who by many accounts worked peacefully in proximity to each other for about a year?

ADVERTISEMENT
https://eb2.3lift.com/pass?tl_click...710&did=9754&bcud=2256&ts=1590946766&cb=63029
Crown Royal Presents: Crown Apple
Crown Royal Regal Apple a.k.a. Crown Apple a.k.a. The Bigger Apple a.k.a. The Apple-achian Mountain a.k.a. Money Appleseed a.k.a Crisp Cringle a.k.a. Crisp Boss Apple Sauce for those 21 and up, drink responsibly.

Sponsored by Crown RoyalSee More

Santamaria recalled that Chauvin, a 19-year-veteran of the department, “was nice but he would overreact and lash out quickly.”

This was particularly true, she said, on nights when the club hosted special events like Twerk Tuesdays and other dance festivals geared toward the black community.

“His face, attitude, posture would change when we did urban nights,” she said, adding that he had a “propensity to pull out pepper spray” and use it on her patrons, something she said she had spoken to him about.

A former bouncer, who worked there until 2014, and a former DJ both said they had never seen or heard of pepper spray being used. A lawyer for Chauvin could not be reached for comment.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Okay, replace Brenda, with Peter from accounting. Replace Karen, with James from purchasing. Nothing changes. And there are more arrests because of increased police presence in the inner cities and poorer neighborhoods where there is a larger black contingent. Cops don’t patrol much in suburbia or even rural communities (where most poor whites live). Blacks are also contacted by the police at a much higher rate because of, you guessed it, racial profiling; not because predisposition to criminality. Some studies and academic papers on the statistics of racial profiling.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...20/jan/02/california-police-black-stops-force

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1293&context=mjrl

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

You mean police go where the crime is. Shocking. I’ll agree with you on systemic causes of poverty but it doesn’t take away people’s ability to choose between right and wrong.
At the end of the day you make choices and those choices have consequences.
A side note: The media and movies always tell me the police don’t respond/go to the inner city. So either there is too much police presence in the inner city or not enough.

 

[swagsurfer02]

You are lazy.


The death of George Floyd after being pinned to the ground in a neck chokehold by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, who was arrested on murder charges today, has sparked unrest across the country and become a political flashpoint — yet another example of a white officer unleashing deadly force on a black man.

But for former employees, DJs, and promoters who spent time at El Nuevo Rodeo, a popular Latin nightclub in southeast Minneapolis, the killing has provoked grief, rage, and also shock. Both Floyd, 46, and Chauvin, 44, worked as part-time security guards at the establishment. How was it possible, many asked, that such violence had exploded between two former coworkers who by many accounts worked peacefully in proximity to each other for about a year?

ADVERTISEMENT
Crown Royal Presents: Crown Apple
Crown Royal Regal Apple a.k.a. Crown Apple a.k.a. The Bigger Apple a.k.a. The Apple-achian Mountain a.k.a. Money Appleseed a.k.a Crisp Cringle a.k.a. Crisp Boss Apple Sauce for those 21 and up, drink responsibly.

Sponsored by Crown RoyalSee More

Santamaria recalled that Chauvin, a 19-year-veteran of the department, “was nice but he would overreact and lash out quickly.”

This was particularly true, she said, on nights when the club hosted special events like Twerk Tuesdays and other dance festivals geared toward the black community.

“His face, attitude, posture would change when we did urban nights,” she said, adding that he had a “propensity to pull out pepper spray” and use it on her patrons, something she said she had spoken to him about.

A former bouncer, who worked there until 2014, and a former DJ both said they had never seen or heard of pepper spray being used. A lawyer for Chauvin could not be reached for comment.

I’m still not seeing the guy as a racist. Also, I’m not lazy usually

 

[Fluffles]

You mean police go where the crime is. Shocking. I’ll agree with you on systemic causes of poverty but it doesn’t take away people’s ability to choose between right and wrong.
At the end of the day you make choices and those choices have consequences.

That is too reductive. Crime occurs at a high rate no matter the location, it’s just a different type of crime. The wealthy don’t sling crack, they snort coke and beat their wives. The police can only arrest what they patrol and systemic racism—implies it only occurs amidst the poor and blacks. Post abolitionism America created and enforced laws meant to oppress and incarcerates blacks—because slavery was abolished. Policing in America is still predicated on this pillar of racism.

 

[billanole]

I’m still not seeing the guy as a racist. Also, I’m not lazy usually

You will never see him as a racist. Just admit it and quit the “I am waiting for proof” show. That has been your go to line for days now.
Regarding lazy, you have demanded others show you proof repeatedly in recent days so, own it.

 

[billanole]

You mean police go where the crime is. Shocking. I’ll agree with you on systemic causes of poverty but it doesn’t take away people’s ability to choose between right and wrong.
At the end of the day you make choices and those choices have consequences.
A side note: The media and movies always tell me the police don’t respond/go to the inner city. So either there is too much police presence in the inner city or not enough.

Is this meant to suggest that there is not enough crime in rural areas to warrant enforcement or patrols?

 

[TarponSpringsNole]

That would help but I think the solution is to increase professional standards. It requires more schooling and training to do nails than to have the power to remove someone from their life and liberty. A 4 year degree plus a 2 year professional school, is a good start. As it is, a HS diploma and six months of training is woefully inadequate. Also, increase the pay and demilitarize the police departments,.

My late father who was career LEO (retired DEA) would most likely agree with this.

The county police where I live have the motto, “We fight as One.” This annoys the heck out of me as it should be, “We Serve as One.”

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

And finally, get rid of the us vs. them mentality, inherent in most every police department.

It is a two way street. Start condemning songs in the culture like "F*ck the Police" and chants like "Pigs in a blanket, fry'm like bacon."

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

The poor don’t care how rich the rich are. They care how poor they are.

If that's truly the case why do the Democrats always pander to the " main street not wall street, 99%ers vs. 1%ers, tax cuts for the rich " when they actually pay the most of the taxes. " This all predates Trump of course...

 

[swagsurfer02]

You will never see him as a racist. Just admit it and quit the “I am waiting for proof” show. That has been your go to line for days now.
Regarding lazy, you have demanded others show you proof repeatedly in recent days so, own it.

You do know I’m black right?

 

[billanole]

You do know I’m black right?

You do know that matters not to me, right? Your recent posting is what I have replied to...

 

[swagsurfer02]

You do know that matters not to me, right? Your recent posting is what I have replied to...

So why would a black dude not call out racism when he sees it? You’re out of your element dude

 

[markfromj]

If that's truly the case why do the Democrats always pander to the " main street not wall street, 99%ers vs. 1%ers, tax cuts for the rich " when they actually pay the most of the taxes. " This all predates Trump of course...

It gains votes from the self-disempowered.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

How do we define 'have not' in America today?

I don’t know, it’s a good question. Probably largely relative - always people who have more and always people who have less.

My point with this thread is just that these protests/riots seem different (to me, at least) than the ones in the past.
More widespread - they’ve now spread to Europe - more expression of general unhappiness and dislike/distrust of government and institutions, and possibly an outright hatred of authority and corporations, etc.

 

[BelemNole]

It’s about a match being dropped in a tinder box. It’s about a lot of angry people across the country being given an excuse to act on those feelings. From POC dealing with their third story of senseless death this month to angry youth, to the magas driving thru crowds because they’ve been told that their country is as stake to the cops shooting at reporters because the president says they’re the enemy. The country is on fire and we have no leadership.

 

[FSUATT]

Isn't it a Jay-Zee song that goes, "When my situation ain't improvin', I'm shootin' anything that's movin,"?

Anyway, the reality is the crowd of protesters is diverse. Racially, geographically, economically, etc. Some people are there not to be violent but to have their voice heard; some are there to loot and cause problems; some just have an incorrigible commitment to public displays of stupidity.

Economics are a small piece, IMHO. I think most people are just tired of those few cops who dishonor the badge killing black people with impunity. Let's keep the focus where it belongs.

Well said. While I believe that the vast majority of cops are good people who are trying to do the right thing, LE needs to do a better job of weeding out the bad cops that are out there. The cop that did the killing was a bad person, but the cops that were there and did not do anything to intervene are just about as bad. It is hard for me to understand that mentality.

 

[herkyhawk00]

For sure the catalyst is racial. A white cop murders (IMO) a black man. In this case a completely defenseless man. People are rightly tired of that kind of thing happening and are angry. Everyone should be repulsed by what happened.

These particular protests feel like more than that, though. There’s such a concentration of wealth in this country and it’s getting worse, not better. It feels like these protests are more about the have nots vs. the haves, and although the Floyd killing started it but I’m not sure it will end there.

Thoughts?

The only things that get attention are white cops against black civilians. Attention is rarely if ever given or promoted if it is a black cop against a black civilian or a white cop against a white civilian. This isn’t about politics brutality, but an agenda to promote that all white cops are racist and out to get black people, which is completely wrong and misguided.

 

[Fluffles]

Well said. While I believe that the vast majority of cops are good people who are trying to do the right thing, LE needs to do a better job of weeding out the bad cops that are out there. The cop that did the killing was a bad person, but the cops that were there and did not do anything to intervene are just about as bad. It is hard for me to understand that mentality.

In most departments, “Rat” cops are considered to be worse than “Dirty” cops. That is the mentality, and why everybody keeps their mouth shut or risk their career and livelihood being ruined. I will also say it’s not just about good or bad, it’s about trained and untrained. Cops have perhaps the lowest amount of schooling and training in relation to the demands of the job, than any other profession in America.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Is this meant to suggest that there is not enough crime in rural areas to warrant enforcement or patrols?

So this weekend we had a few families get together on the block. You know, white small town suburbia, kids outside playing and riding their bikes, parents in lawn chairs having a few beers around a fire pit. What was different this weekend was that city police were driving around through the development twice a night. The police never drive through our neighborhood. On Saturday the officer stopped and talked with us, nice young guy, nice conversation, handed out stickers to the kids. We point blank asked him what gives? Our development never gets patrolled. We rarely have cops roll through the neighborhood. He told us that patrols have been increased and they'll be coming through our neighborhood two to three times a night now.

So given the thought process on this board the increased contact with law enforcement should lead to more of my neighbors going to jail. Nah, how about we just treat each other with respect and as human beings. We thanked him and asked if he'd like a pulled pork sandwich and that he's welcome to stop back after his shift is over.

 

[billanole]

So why would a black dude not call out racism when he sees it? You’re out of your element dude

Which element am I being placed in?

 

[HumbleP1e]

Isn't it a Jay-Zee song that goes, "When my situation ain't improvin', I'm shootin' anything that's movin,"?

Anyway, the reality is the crowd of protesters is diverse. Racially, geographically, economically, etc. Some people are there not to be violent but to have their voice heard; some are there to loot and cause problems; some just have an incorrigible commitment to public displays of stupidity.

Economics are a small piece, IMHO. I think most people are just tired of those few cops who dishonor the badge killing black people with impunity. Let's keep the focus where it belongs.

I understand swag's point. It's inconclusive to say he's racist simply by looking at a white cop kneeling on a black man. I have yet to see any footage of what happened in the backseat before he was taken out and out on the street. However, and if you don't concur with this point, you may be paying more attention to "you" and your view than other people around the nation: black people, and men in particular, are repetitively killed by white police, and it has sparked outcry before, so if as a white police man, you are not sensitive to that, it is a type of latent racism.
https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...gs-are-a-leading-cause-of-death-for-black-men

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Nobody is asking you to. I can’t condone caring as much or more for property than for people. We spend more time talking about property damage than we do people damage. And that is just so damned American. America.

Going out and damaging small businesses can ruin people's lives...

but those people don't count right cuz they all must be filthy rich for having a small business

 

[H4wkfan4life]

The poor don’t care how rich the rich are. They care how poor they are.

how about all the kids the cameras showed running out of Merle Hay Mall with their brand new sneakers. God I feel so sorry for them if they didn't have all those fresh new Jordans. What the hell is wrong with people.....

These people aren't stealing necessities they're stealing bullshit.

 

[Hawgk]

White people don't get killed by police for doing what the police tell them to do. While most issues can be rooted in poverty, police brutality is a uniquely racist thing. Even wealthy black people are treated unfairly and sometimes abused by white cops. Socio-economic level doesn't matter.

You might want to check your facts.

 

[BioHawk]

You might want to check your facts.

Ok. I'm sure that at some point in history it has happened, but it certainly doesn't happen with the regularity and as widespread that it happens with black people. Which, by the way, any reasonable person would understand was the intent behind my statement.

 

[Hawgk]

Ok. I'm sure that at some point in history it has happened, but it certainly doesn't happen with the regularity and as widespread that it happens with black people. Which, by the way, any reasonable person would understand was the intent behind my statement.

Or perhaps a reasonable person would have done a more reasonable job explaining their intent?

 

[Run&Blade]

I think cops harassing via “driving while black” is a real and troubling thing.

I also think cops are so stressed out from being in the horrible areas all the time it leads to some unneeded aggression towards all races in poor areas.

 

[Rudolph]

Going out and damaging small businesses can ruin people's lives...

but those people don't count right cuz they all must be filthy rich for having a small business

Lol. Yeah, you should read my posts more carefully. What do you think of people who do business with small businesses and then stiffarm them when it comes time to pay the invoice(s)?

 

[BioHawk]

Or perhaps a reasonable person would have done a more reasonable job explaining their intent?

I did a fine job explaining my intent. Only morons would not understand the meaning of my statement.

 

[Hawgk]

I did a fine job explaining my intent. Only morons would not understand the meaning of my statement.

There’s been multiple white people unnecessarily killed by police in recent years. You posted implying it has never happened. I called you out and I’m the moron?

You obviously have taken a fall from the stupid tree, hitting every branch in the way down.

 

[BioHawk]

There’s been multiple white people unnecessarily killed by police in recent years. You posted implying it has never happened. I called you out and I’m the moron?

You obviously have taken a fall from the stupid tree, hitting every branch in the way down.

You are inventing context for my statement. Something only idiots do. Or, they ask for clarification first. Morons jump to conclusions.

And for the record, I never called you a moron. I provided qualifiers for being a moron in this circumstance. If you feel that description applies to you, well, that's a personal problem you have to deal with. I really don't care.

 

[swagsurfer02]

Which element am I being placed in?

That everything is a binary choice. Most of us are deeper than a teaspoon, you sir are not.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So any time there’s a incident with a white cop and a black civilian it’s racist? I know that’s the conclusion everyone jumps to but it’s not necessarily the case.

The problem is there is a crap ton of evidence that the law comes down more swiftly and more harshly upon African Americans. The stuff you see on the news is just a symptom of that. It is possible that the same things would have happened with a white guy. Yes that's possible, but when you see all of the evidence that LEO's treat African American's differently it makes a great deal of sense that the same systemic problems that cause off this inequality in how blacks are treated verses whites was likely at least a partial motivator of this and other incidences.

And this further goes to understand how you fail to understand systemic racism. It's not just a bunch of people who secretly use the N word under their breath or know in their head that they hate black people. The root cause of it is stereotypes against black people that cause this. Because of stereotypes people tend to view the same actions as being more hostile if a black man does it verses a white man. Because of stereotypes when a young black male commits a crime people tend to see it as the beginning of a criminal career while viewing a white man as just having made a youthful indiscretion.

When white people call the cops because a black person was working out a gym or was having a cookout in a public park. When the internet calls them out for it their immediate response is "I'm not a racist". . . which of course gets made fun of. But the thing is that the person actually believes that.

So yes it is safe to assume that racism is likely a partial motivator of the crime. Because the person had stereotypes that colored their worldview so much that completely innocent actions by African Americans warranted these responses.

 

[Hawgk]

You are inventing context for my statement. Something only idiots do. Or, they ask for clarification first. Morons jump to conclusions.

And for the record, I never called you a moron. I provided qualifiers for being a moron in this circumstance. If you feel that description applies to you, well, that's a personal problem you have to deal with. I really don't care.

I simply told you to check your facts. Your follow up to that was hostile. What ever you want to tell yourself to feel better about being wrong is fine with me.

 

[BioHawk]

I simply told you to check your facts. Your follow up to that was hostile. What ever you want to tell yourself to feel better about being wrong is fine with me.

lol, whatever dude. Good luck to you.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Also I say that for the people caught up in this, though they never try it. . . I insist that I think they would do way better for themselves by admitting they screwed up, that negative racial stereotypes colored their actions and that they want to be a better person and do better in the future would work out for them in the long run better than "I'm not a racist". They could of course follow that up by meeting with the people affected and perhaps others as well, apologizing personally and talking it out and listening.

A very sincere apology for something is very disarming, especially if the consequences were not too severe (It's a bit tougher if you killed someone.) and there is no principle here IMO worth standing up for. So I maintain that these people would do better by just saying. "I'm sorry, I acted like an ass and stereotyped you based on the color of your skin and there is no excuse for that."

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

Does the BLM movement have projects going on in inner cities with troubled black youth? What’s being done to attempt to deal with gangs and violent crime in America’s worst urban areas. I’m asking honestly. It’s unbelievable and heartbreaking how many young black men die every year at the hands of other young black men. Many of whom are essentially kids born into violence with little hope of ever escaping the deadly cycle. While what Derek Chauvin did is disgusting and he deserves everything he gets for it and more, I feel like the sheer amount of focus placed on his act and similar acts by civil rights leaders, politicians, activists and the general public deflects attention from a far greater problem faced by African Americans in the United States.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Does the BLM movement have projects going on in inner cities with troubled black youth? What’s being done to attempt to deal with gangs and violent crime in America’s worst urban areas. I’m asking honestly. It’s unbelievable and heartbreaking how many young black men die every year at the hands of other young black men. Many of whom are essentially kids born into violence with little hope of ever escaping the deadly cycle. While what Derek Chauvin did is disgusting and he deserves everything he gets for it and more, I feel like the sheer amount of focus placed on his act and similar acts by civil rights leaders, politicians, activists and the general public deflects attention from a far greater problem faced by African Americans in the United States.

First of all BLM does some of that stuff yes.

Secondly and more importantly that is a distraction from this for multiple reasons.

1. Police often seem to get away with this. Even when they don't justice seems to move slowly. Black murderers usually go to prison no difficulties.

2. Politics does not control criminals. Politics does control police departments. We can't vote and somehow do a better job screening the citizens of our country to get better citizens. However we can vote and do a better job screening people who want to be police officers. We can only do so much on the oversight of our citizens because of the whole constitution thing. However because cops are on the job and not just living their lives we can vote and do much more in terms of oversight.

So the whole issue of blacks killing other blacks is a red-herring to distract from the issues. It doesn't take days or months to arrest a black man on video of shooting another person. That happens right away. However even with clear prima facie cases against these people the justice system always seems to drag it's feet.

 

[SoDakHawk]

I don't think it is a distraction at all. If we're going to have a conversation it all needs to get put on the table. Treatment of black people by cops. Black on black crime. How do we fix inner city neighborhoods?

You know what else needs addressed? Why are colleges 65% female and 35% male? Are young white males becoming disenfranchised so we see the rise of these alt-right groups?

Because if we don't start addressing all these things we are just going to be trading one problem for another.

How about we just work to build a culture of personal responsibility and respect for one another? Seems like if we do that and just treat each other decently as human beings everything else will just naturally fall into place.

 

[billanole]

That everything is a binary choice. Most of us are deeper than a teaspoon, you sir are not.

Awesome.