Julie Waggoner and Maurice Goodson

[CP84]

Sweden has had orders of magnitude more deaths than their neighbors and is 6th worst per capita in the world. Hardly a country to emulate.

Sweden counts covid mortality by taking death certificates and matching to any prior positive test within 28 days. That means you could have terminal cancer in a hospice unit and be counted as covid with a recent positive test. This is similar to how the UK counts. Their immediate neighbors count similar to Germany, which is only deaths counted when covid is the underlying cause.

If you look at excess mortality, which measures all cause mortality to recent historical trends, Sweden does very well compared to their neighbors.

Sweden also only had a -8.6 Q2 GDP while the European average was almost 4 percentage points worse at -12.1.

The ramifications of lockdowns will be disastrous and why countries are moving away from them, Poland most recently.

 

[silasstarr]

BS and ignorance

Keep living in la la land.

 

[silasstarr]

It's amazing how many myths people believe. The only way through this is by herd immunity.

Other countries are going to be in a perpetual state of lockdowns. New Zealand was praised for going 3 months without a recorded case. They opened, recorded 9 this week and promptly threw the country back into lockdown.

The UK government is now projecting to have killed 2 people via lockdown for every 3 coronavirus deaths.

Sweden meanwhile didn't shut down, doesn't wear masks and their deaths have bottomed out.

Talk about myths?! You mention Sweden as a model of hope. Do you not understand how to interrupt numbers? They have a higher infection rate per million as well as a higher death rate per million.

 

[Dargo]

It's amazing how many myths people believe. The only way through this is by herd immunity.

Other countries are going to be in a perpetual state of lockdowns. New Zealand was praised for going 3 months without a recorded case. They opened, recorded 9 this week and promptly threw the country back into lockdown.

The UK government is now projecting to have killed 2 people via lockdown for every 3 coronavirus deaths.

Sweden meanwhile didn't shut down, doesn't wear masks and their deaths have bottomed out.

The people in Sweden also socially distanced, took it upon themselves to stay out of bars and large crowds, and generally took the virus seriously, which is the exact opposite of what the idiots in this country have done. Refusal to wear masks, packing bars, restaurants, refusing to avoid large gatherings, etc. No self control at all. However, the elderly population in Sweden took a huge hit, and the mortality rate per 100,000 people is even higher than here. Also, keep in mind Sweden only has 10 million people.

 

[arizonahawkI]

You understand that things change. For example, if people would have stayed home or wore a mask when going out, this country is in a very different place than in currently is in. Hell, we still haven't got out of the initial outbreak when other countries are preparing for the second wave.

You do realize that that's a joke.

 

[Dargo]

BS and ignorance

Bullshit. How do you think other countries got it under control? Staying home, wearing masks, period. Every single doctor I work with says the exact same thing. MASKS, avoid bars, indoor dining, large crowds, etc. That is how you get the numbers down to where you can have sports, etc safely. According to you that's BS and ignorance. You don't know shit, that's for sure.

 

[Dargo]

I am not trying to have a political view on this, my question is I thought it was always about flattening the curve so hospitals didn’t get over ran with patients. Now all of the sudden it has become a debate of no one getting it. When did this become the main goal, we have found a way to fight it and now we are stopping everything for it. What will be next a bad flu season????

How many hospitals you work in? I can tell you the 4 in my area are full, the covid units are full, and are in danger of being over run. I see it daily yet people like you that don't have any idea what actually goes on seem to be the experts on it. Wait until schools reopen, it will explode even further, then throw flu season on top of it. We haven't seen anything yet.

 

[Hawkfam4]

How many hospitals you work in? I can tell you the 4 in my area are full, the covid units are full, and are in danger of being over run. I see it daily yet people like you that don't have any idea what actually goes on seem to be the experts on it. Wait until schools reopen, it will explode even further, then throw flu season on top of it. We haven't seen anything yet.

I don’t but I have three sisters that are RN’s, and they have said they are no where close to full. Maybe it’s just a smart virus that attacks major areas unless you’re protesting.

 

[Dargo]

Really, if that’s the case what about any other pandemic that came through America???? The news outlets are almost all owned by Democrats and it was crickets when Obama was president. We are all being played, some realize it some don’t. It’s like we are living out the wizard of oz while everyone is looking at the supposed pandemic what’s going on that they don’t want us to see??? I am just sick of people fighting amongst ourselves which is what the government would like, it was always to flatten the curve and now it’s about no cases with a extremely low mortality rate, I have a better chance of dying driving in my car should I not drive anymore??? Sick of living not to die instead of living, when did we become so worried about a .004% chance of dying? Let the government tell you how to live and believe it, I’ll make my own decisions.

We're all being played? Okay. Paranoid much? Sorry to inform you, but your chance of dying from covid is much greater than .004%, and if you survive you have a far higher chance of having long term health consequences from it. I don't let anyone tell me how to live or believe, I see this daily in the hospital, talk to experts on this virus, and actually make informed decisions based on what they say, and what I see. The fact you call it a supposed pandemic says a lot.

 

[UncannyNanny]

You understand that things change. For example, if people would have stayed home or wore a mask when going out, this country is in a very different place than in currently is in. Hell, we still haven't got out of the initial outbreak when other countries are preparing for the second wave.

Lol. That’s not how it works, like... at all.

 

[Hawkfam4]

We're all being played? Okay. Paranoid much? Sorry to inform you, but your chance of dying from covid is much greater than .004%, and if you survive you have a far higher chance of having long term health consequences from it. I don't let anyone tell me how to live or believe, I see this daily in the hospital, talk to experts on this virus, and actually make informed decisions based on what they say, and what I see. The fact you call it a supposed pandemic says a lot.

I am not paranoid, just a self thinking adult

Lol. That’s not how it works, like... at all.

if masks are so effective why didn’t we give inmates masks instead of letting them out?

 

[birthhawk]

I am not paranoid, just a self thinking adult

if masks are so effective why didn’t we give inmates masks instead of letting them out?

This is just.... wow...I can't comprehend the immensity of the ignorance here.

I bet you're old. Am I right?

 

[Hawkfam4]

This is just.... wow...I can't comprehend the immensity of the ignorance here.

I bet you're old. Am I right?

No I am not, was raised to think for myself. What does age have to do with it??? Were schools not teaching people well enough if I was old?

 

[birthhawk]

Lol. That’s not how it works, like... at all.

Ope, this guy is back.

You know everyone, he did read one article about T cells, so, he's kind of a big deal.

 

[birthhawk]

No I am not was raised to think for myself. What does age have to do with it??? Were schools not teaching people well enough if I was old?

Come on, you're an old fart aren't you?

No wait, barely graduated high school, working construction. Now am I close?

Edited to add: from a small town?

 

[Hawkfam4]

Come on, you're an old fart aren't you?

No wait, barely graduated high school, working construction. Now am I close?

Edited to add: from a small town?

No 45 and a farmer, are you a suburb dwelling hippie?

 

[birthhawk]

No 45 and a farmer, are you a suburb dwelling hippie?

Suburb dweller, 44, no hippie. Independent.

Just working a theory, and was wrong about the age thing. I guess I just don't get the immense paranoia from the right. I gotta think it's Fox News. You watch that a lot?

 

[UncannyNanny]

Ope, this guy is back.

You know everyone, he did read one article about T cells, so, he's kind of a big deal.

Yeah you got it, you have yet to make any actual arguments. Question for you, if masks work so well why can’t we have packed stadiums with people wearing masks?

 

[birthhawk]

Yeah you got it, you have yet to make any actual arguments. Question for you, if masks work so well why can’t we have packed stadiums with people wearing masks?

Because of T cells?

Look, you are not interested in argument. Argument is not waiting your turn to talk. It's actually being open to multiple views and using the evidence to drive a pov.

You're not interested in any evidence that does not already confirm your already concrete viewpoint.

 

[Hawkfam4]

Suburb dweller, 44, no hippie. Independent.

Just working a theory, and was wrong about the age thing. I guess I just don't get the immense paranoia from the right. I gotta think it's Fox News. You watch that a lot?

Actually I barely watch tv at all, don’t even have cable. You really need to keep reaching don’t you? I form my own opinions, I don’t need anymore or any party to tell me how to think. I used to agree with some ideas of the Democratic Party, as of late very few. You could actually say I was almost a libertarian. But just keep spitballing it’ll work out for ya sooner or later.

 

[UncannyNanny]

Because of T cells?

Look, you are not interested in argument. Argument is not waiting your turn to talk. It's actually being open to multiple views and using the evidence to drive a pov.

You're not interested in any evidence that does not already confirm your already concrete viewpoint.

What? I’m completely willing to have an open discussion about covid all night if you would like. I have yet insulted or mocked anybody. It is you constantly giving me grief for having an opinion. What have I posted that you disagree with?

 

[birthhawk]

Actually I barely watch tv at all, don’t even have cable. You really need to keep reaching don’t you? I form my own opinions, I don’t need anymore or any party to tell me how to think. I used to agree with some ideas of the Democratic Party, as of late very few. You could actually saw I was almost a libertarian. But just keep spitballing it’ll work out for ya sooner or later.

Ok, why are you so paranoid and feel so victimized?

 

[birthhawk]

What? I’m completely willing to have an open discussion about covid all night if you would like. I have yet insulted or mocked anybody. It is you constantly giving me grief for having an opinion. What have I posted that you disagree with?

Everything

 

[UncannyNanny]

Everything

Easy enough, I pray you too one day join the darkside of science and intellectual honesty.

 

[Hawkfam4]

Ok, why are you so paranoid and feel so victimized?

I don’t feel victimized, and I am not paranoid. I just don’t need people telling me what to think. I guess if you are 100%!trusting of what the government tells you that’s good for you.

 

[CP84]

Because of T cells?

Look, you are not interested in argument. Argument is not waiting your turn to talk. It's actually being open to multiple views and using the evidence to drive a pov.

You're not interested in any evidence that does not already confirm your already concrete viewpoint.

The same people who claim to use evidence to form a pov don't appear to realize that there are only a few thin observational studies demonstrating any efficacy in the use of masks to prevent community spread while most actual substantial randomized control trials with cohorts showed a lack of efficacy.

Lockdowns now look abysmal as a UK government report just showed that 2 people died from lockdowns for every 3 covid deaths.

We can talk about evidence.

 

[CP84]

The people in Sweden also socially distanced, took it upon themselves to stay out of bars and large crowds, and generally took the virus seriously, which is the exact opposite of what the idiots in this country have done. Refusal to wear masks, packing bars, restaurants, refusing to avoid large gatherings, etc. No self control at all. However, the elderly population in Sweden took a huge hit, and the mortality rate per 100,000 people is even higher than here. Also, keep in mind Sweden only has 10 million people.

Apparently you don't see the disconnect in praising the Swedish social distancing while concurrently slamming Americans for not wearing masks.

Do you not realize almost 50% of Americans wear masks while only 5% of Swedes have?

Your point about not packing bars there is also false.

 

[birthhawk]

So, Mayo Clinic is in on the lie?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449
And here's an example of a "thin" study:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/
And here's why there are so few studies so far: https://www.uchealth.org/today/wear-a-mask-the-science-that-supports-masks/
Let me know what you think AFTER reading.

 

[birthhawk]

Apparently you don't see the disconnect in praising the Swedish social distancing while concurrently slamming Americans for not wearing masks.

Do you not realize almost 50% of Americans wear masks while only 5% of Swedes have?

Your point about not packing bars there is also false.

Off topic, but I love how those who don't want to talk about Sweden's successful socialized health care system are now so intent on pointing to their handling of Covid.

 

[haw-key]

How many hospitals you work in? I can tell you the 4 in my area are full, the covid units are full, and are in danger of being over run. I see it daily yet people like you that don't have any idea what actually goes on seem to be the experts on it. Wait until schools reopen, it will explode even further, then throw flu season on top of it. We haven't seen anything yet.

I work in a hospital and our critical care units are no where close to being overrun with Covid patients.

 

[birthhawk]

I work in a hospital and our critical care units are no where close to being overrun with Covid patients.

Where at? What general area?

 

[haw-key]

Large urban ED in Iowa

 

[CP84]

So, Mayo Clinic is in on the lie?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449
And here's an example of a "thin" study:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/
And here's why there are so few studies so far: https://www.uchealth.org/today/wear-a-mask-the-science-that-supports-masks/
Let me know what you think AFTER reading.

I'm not certain you read your own references. The one publication you cite from NIH by its own definition is thin.

Analysis from arguably the leading evidenced based medicine research institution in the world, at Oxford.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/

 

[H4wkfan4life]

It's amazing how many myths people believe.



The UK government is now projecting to have killed 2 people via lockdown for every 3 coronavirus deaths.
.

True dat!!!

 

[birthhawk]

I'm not certain you read your own references. The one publication you cite from NIH by its own definition is thin.

Analysis from arguably the leading evidenced based medicine research institution in the world, at Oxford.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/

That's funny. I feel the same way about your evidence.

 

[CP84]

That's funny. I feel the same way about your evidence.

Ok, I just cited substantially larger RCT's taken over a longer period of time. Your post might as well say, that doesn't fit my narrative so I don't like it.

It's fine to wear a mask since the efficacy is still unsettled but another thing altogether to claim the evidence supports that point of view. It does not.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Sweden counts covid mortality by taking death certificates and matching to any prior positive test within 28 days. That means you could have terminal cancer in a hospice unit and be counted as covid with a recent positive test. This is similar to how the UK counts. Their immediate neighbors count similar to Germany, which is only deaths counted when covid is the underlying cause.

If you look at excess mortality, which measures all cause mortality to recent historical trends, Sweden does very well compared to their neighbors.

Sweden also only had a -8.6 Q2 GDP while the European average was almost 4 percentage points worse at -12.1.

The ramifications of lockdowns will be disastrous and why countries are moving away from them, Poland most recently.

Sweden's number are much worse than Iowa neb Wis so on, that's what I know as fact.

 

[birthhawk]

Ok, I just cited substantially larger RCT's taken over a longer period of time. Your post might as well say, that doesn't fit my narrative so I don't like it.

It's fine to wear a mask since the efficacy is still unsettled but another thing altogether to claim the evidence supports that point of view. It does not.

This is where you come in:
"This abandonment of the scientific modus operandi and lack of foresight has left the field wide open for the play of opinions, radical views and political influence."

 

[CP84]

This is where you come in:
"This abandonment of the scientific modus operandi and lack of foresight has left the field wide open for the play of opinions, radical views and political influence."

I see, go for the ad hominem when confronted with multiple RCT's including one with a sample size exceeding 4k which don't conform to your narrative.

 

[birthhawk]

I see, go for the ad hominem when confronted with multiple RCT's including one with a sample size exceeding 4k which don't conform to your narrative.

Speaking of narrative, you clearly have your own you are trying, desperately, to legitimize. So how about this. I will acknowledge your point that the research on the efficacy of masks is "thin." Will you acknowledge that more and more research IS showing that wearing masks may help? And, if so, why not wear them?