Just wait 2 weeks Florida...

[coloradonoles]

LMAO. Guess you can’t get enough of people using your own words to own you? You know, the whole deaths lagging point stopped working in the summer right, and it can’t be your permanent go to defense? Yes yes there is a lag, we know. But you can’t just forever make this your defense case. Deaths are still happening as are infections and there will be a gap in their accounting. Let me know how much you want to bet that more than 361 died between September 25 and now.

But everyone knows in December you will be pointing out the reported deaths in Florida are bull because they are from September October. 🤣🤣🤣 As if the 18-20k dead by then did not happen.

Coronavirus in Florida, July 31: State reports fourth straight daily death record with 257

iowa.forums.rivals.com

@Kenneth Griffin remember this gem from July 31st?

“Kenny flawlessly segues from cases to deaths since cases are dwindling and deaths lag 14 to 90 days...

Gives him 2 or 3 more weeks of threads to start. Maybe longer if the labs trickle out the results...”

Your making my point for me... this is exactly why I have been harping time and time again... all the data is garbage.

We are using a system that is not designed for real time data to make policy decisions. It's crap.

And I'm willing to bet whatever you care to lose that when it all shakes out in the time frame from Sept 25th - Oct 13th. (18 days) Florida will not have had anywhere near 1361 Covid deaths. They would have to adjust each day in this chart by an average of almost 70/day. which is more than any day since July. Highly unlikely.

 

[noleclone2]

Your making my point for me... this is exactly why I have been harping time and time again... all the data is garbage.

We are using a system that is not designed for real time data to make policy decisions. It's crap.

And I'm willing to bet whatever you care to lose that when it all shakes out in the time frame from Sept 25th - Oct 13th. (18 days) Florida will not have had anywhere near 1361 Covid deaths. They would have to adjust each day in this chart by an average of almost 70/day. which is more than any day since July. Highly unlikely.

You are a fck ing clown. We are nearing 16k dead in Florida, the vast majority of whom died after late May. And as you have pointed out, not all the dead are even counted. And you still are talking about “wait two weeks” spin. In July you literally tried to say the deaths were not accurate and were from the months before. In October, here you are again saying the deaths are from, wait for it, July and August. You are a complete idiot if you think that makes you look you have a winning argument over a five month time span. But that’s ok, you were on record as one of the original “it’s just the flu” president Trump fluffers and that this would never amount to anything. You keep being you.

 

[Finance85]

You are a fck ing clown. We are nearing 16k dead in Florida, the vast majority of whom died after late May. And as you have pointed out, not all the dead are even counted. And you still are talking about “wait two weeks” spin. In July you literally tried to say the deaths were not accurate and were from the months before. In October, here you are again saying the deaths are from, wait for it, July and August. You are a complete idiot if you think that makes you look you have a winning argument over a five month time span. But that’s ok, you were on record as one of the original “it’s just the flu” president Trump fluffers and that this would never amount to anything. You keep being you.

What could have been done since May, in Florida, to prevent those deaths?

 

[MeetTheFerentz]

lockdowns and masks have been a massive failure.

Link to any credible source supporting this?

 

[SB_SB]

Jeesh. He didn't say "don't wear a mask". He's just taking away fines for not doing so.

He didn't say, "everyone rush into bars and restaurants". He's still saying there should be social distancing in bars.

I really don't understand what some of you folks want. What would you do? Continue to keep everything closed, or at half capacity? So many want to criticize or offer snide remarks, but don't have any solutions for the millions out of work or losing their businesses.

And if he remove the punishment for stealing, you could also claim that he wasn't saying "go out and steal", but the outcome would be, there would be more thefts.

 

[Finance85]

And if he remove the punishment for stealing, you could also claim that he wasn't saying "go out and steal", but the outcome would be, there would be more thefts.

No answers to any of the questions I posed. Criticize mightily, but don't have any answers or solutions. Throw in an absurd strawman to boot. Nice post.

 

[noleclone2]

What could have been done since May, in Florida, to prevent those deaths?

Being cautious and staying focused on what got Florida through mid May in good shape?
Not spiking the football and reopening everything right before memorial weekend?
Not having GOP folks from county commissioners to the governor be dismissive of masks and mandating masks?
Not portraying it as if the battle was won and everyone just carry on BAU?
By doing all that infections majorly spiked starting in late June and still are fairly high. It was originally dismissed as just the young healthy people...but they spread it, and by mid July people started dying at a level not seen March through June.

There is a reason all the red states blew up with COVID-19 IN THE SUMMER. They dismissed it, thought it was over and would go away in the summer like the flu, and worse had an anti social distance and mask viewpoint that was frankly politically based. Not wearing a mask became a political statement for many.

 

[SB_SB]

No answers to any of the questions I posed. Criticize mightily, but don't have any answers or solutions. Throw in an absurd strawman to boot. Nice post.

You may not like my answer because it proves your statement is ridiculous but it's true. What needs to be done is to enforce wearing a mask and social distancing so as to limit the deaths until there's a vaccine. Reducing the restrictions is just going to lead to more deaths and the outcome of that is more people not willing to go out. The more people are not going out, the more impact to restaurants and stores. If you're a mask wearing, the last thing you want to deal with is going places where there's a large number of people not wearing a mask. So the outcome is, you don't go. Is that what you want?

 

[Finance85]

Being cautious and staying focus on what got Florida through mid May in good shape?
Not spiking the football and reopening everything right before memorial weekend?
Not having GOP folks from county commissioners to the governor be dismissive of masks and mandating masks?
Not portraying it as if the battle was one and everyone just carry on BAU?
By doing all that infections majorly spiked starting in late June and still are fairly high. It was originally dismissed as just the young healthy people...but they spread it, and by mid July people started dying at a level not seen March through June.

There is a reason all the red states blew up with COVID-19 IN THE SUMMER. They dismissed it, thought it was over and would go away in the summer like the flu.

So the only thing tangible is to have kept everything shut down longer. You are sure that this would have prevented deaths, instead of simply delaying them? Wasn't the original goal to flatten the curve? How would you compensate the 100's of thousands of business owners in Florida how would be financially devastated by staying shut down? You didn't mention how much longer you would have stayed shut down past Memorial Day. BTW, it wasn't BAU after Memorial Day. Restaurants were 25%. Bars were still shut down. Masks were being encouraged and are still being encouraged.

I'm fine with people being critical. But when people get venomous with their criticism, I'm interested in their solutions.

So I ask again, what would you have done to stop the deaths?

 

[SB_SB]

So the only thing tangible is to have kept everything shut down longer. You are sure that this would have prevented deaths, instead of simply delaying them? Wasn't the original goal to flatten the curve? How would you compensate the 100's of thousands of business owners in Florida how would be financially devastated by staying shut down? You didn't mention how much longer you would have stayed shut down past Memorial Day. BTW, it wasn't BAU after Memorial Day. Restaurants were 25%. Bars were still shut down. Masks were being encouraged and are still being encouraged.

I'm fine with people being critical. But when people get venomous with their criticism, I'm interested in their solutions.

So I ask again, what would you have done to stop the deaths?

Mask enforcement. No super spreader events. Leadership that doesn't defend bad behavior.

 

[Finance85]

Mask enforcement. No super spreader events. Leadership that doesn't defend bad behavior.

How would you enforce wearing masks? Fines? Jail? What if the person has a physical issue with wearing a mask? What if the person not wearing the mask has already had the virus and has just tested negative? They aren't a danger.

Super spreader events? You mean like George Floyd protests? Are you telling me that if you were governor of Florida, you'd be deciding which events were OK for people to attend? You'd be willing to unilaterally decide when the 1st Amendment didn't apply?

 

[Tom Paris]

So the only thing tangible is to have kept everything shut down longer. You are sure that this would have prevented deaths, instead of simply delaying them? Wasn't the original goal to flatten the curve? How would you compensate the 100's of thousands of business owners in Florida how would be financially devastated by staying shut down? You didn't mention how much longer you would have stayed shut down past Memorial Day. BTW, it wasn't BAU after Memorial Day. Restaurants were 25%. Bars were still shut down. Masks were being encouraged and are still being encouraged.

I'm fine with people being critical. But when people get venomous with their criticism, I'm interested in their solutions.

So I ask again, what would you have done to stop the deaths?

Wow.

 

[noleclone2]

So the only thing tangible is to have kept everything shut down longer. You are sure that this would have prevented deaths, instead of simply delaying them? Wasn't the original goal to flatten the curve? How would you compensate the 100's of thousands of business owners in Florida how would be financially devastated by staying shut down? You didn't mention how much longer you would have stayed shut down past Memorial Day. BTW, it wasn't BAU after Memorial Day. Restaurants were 25%. Bars were still shut down. Masks were being encouraged and are still being encouraged.

I'm fine with people being critical. But when people get venomous with their criticism, I'm interested in their solutions.

So I ask again, what would you have done to stop the deaths?

I just told you. It was working, which is why DeSantis wanted his apology. As you said businesses were slowly opening up, things were getting better. Follow CDC guidelines on reopening with infectivity. But there was a calculated decision to try to portray this as won, to encourage people to come into the state and that Florida was safe vs staying focused on the danger still and making sure all citizens bought into mask wearing and social distancing and not having big get togethers at bars and clubs. You are also wrong about timing. They opened up gyms, amusement parks, sport venues, and bumped restaurants and retail to 50% the week before memorial weekend.

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/EO-20-123.pdf

Other states opened back up later in this summer without this infectivity and carnage.

As far as "Masks were being encouraged and are still being encouraged" here is your boy two days ago, "encouraging mask wearing and social distancing". Is that level of leadership going to help us get out of this mess, while people like Bobby Bowden are sitting in the hospital and UF's football team is having an outbreak. Shit like that is why 45% of this state don't care or believe it is real.

Florida doctors have harsh words for DeSantis, Trump following ‘unacceptable’ display at Sanford rally

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, after being seen high-fiving supporters at a rally for President Donald Trump, at one point appeared to wipe his nose.

www.local10.com

 

[your_master5]

That’s ridiculous. You’ve been listening to too much Fox. New York got hit before we knew anything. Cuomo didn’t dismantle the pandemic response team. He didn’t have intel warning him it was coming and to prepare. They got hit early and it spread like wildfire because of the mass transit infrastructure. They responded as well as could be expected. That’s why the measure of performance is how you’re doing now.

This didn't happen either with Trump. I don't know why libs keeping pushing this. It was debunked in a WaPo article by the guy who ran the damn team.

 

[SB_SB]

How would you enforce wearing masks? Fines? Jail? What if the person has a physical issue with wearing a mask? What if the person not wearing the mask has already had the virus and has just tested negative? They aren't a danger.

Super spreader events? You mean like George Floyd protests? Are you telling me that if you were governor of Florida, you'd be deciding which events were OK for people to attend? You'd be willing to unilaterally decide when the 1st Amendment didn't apply?

I would give fines for non mask wearing. You have to show people you're serious. There has to be mask wearing and limit indoor parties. People may not like it but it has to be done.

I just have to shake my head at the people who just constantly complain and want to open up. The OpenUp group want everything back to normal, it's just the flu. Let's just say the OpenUp group is 51% of the people and they get their way and everything is open for business. No masks, no restrictions, it's fully open. What do you think the other 49% of the people, we'll call them the ScienceTeam, are going to do. My guess is, they're going to stay away from any business that is fully opened with no restrictions. If that happens, then those businesses have lost roughly 50% of their business. And depending on the business (restaurant or store for older people), that business could lose a much larger percentage and go under. In this scenario, by having no restrictions, it actually negatively impacts businesses. Instead of viewing the restrictions as negative, you really need to view them as a positive, because it's trying to help 100% of the people to feel safe resulting in people going to businesses.

 

[seminole97]

200,000 Americans are dead. The “wait 2 weeks” sarcasm, kinda falls flat, no?

Sounds better than saying we put a big dent in heart disease deaths this year.

 

[Finance85]

I would give fines for non mask wearing. You have to show people you're serious. There has to be mask wearing and limit indoor parties. People may not like it but it has to be done.

I just have to shake my head at the people who just constantly complain and want to open up. The OpenUp group want everything back to normal, it's just the flu. Let's just say the OpenUp group is 51% of the people and they get their way and everything is open for business. No masks, no restrictions, it's fully open. What do you think the other 49% of the people, we'll call them the ScienceTeam, are going to do. My guess is, they're going to stay away from any business that is fully opened with no restrictions. If that happens, then those businesses have lost roughly 50% of their business. And depending on the business (restaurant or store for older people), that business could lose a much larger percentage and go under. In this scenario, by having no restrictions, it actually negatively impacts businesses. Instead of viewing the restrictions as negative, you really need to view them as a positive, because it's trying to help 100% of the people to feel safe resulting in people going to businesses.

Nobody is saying it's just the flu. Nobody is saying it should be BAU. That's a false narrative. But you can embrace it if it makes you feel better, and as a way to try and rationalize your criticism.

Perhaps you haven't seen the CDC article yesterday that reviews the effectiveness of masks. If you are truly interested in science, you'll take a look. I'm sure you understand that all masks aren't created equal. And now we're finding out the virus lives longer on surfaces than originally thought.

Ultimately it's a virus. Anyone thinking it can be stopped without a fully implemented vaccine is fooling themselves. The flu hasn't yet been stopped despite having vaccines.

The people most at risk of dying should be sheltering in place. Most of them know it by now, yet they don't want to protect themselves.

 

[SB_SB]

Nobody is saying it's just the flu. Nobody is saying it should be BAU. That's a false narrative. But you can embrace it if it makes you feel better, and as a way to try and rationalize your criticism.

Perhaps you haven't seen the CDC article yesterday that reviews the effectiveness of masks. If you are truly interested in science, you'll take a look. I'm sure you understand that all masks aren't created equal. And now we're finding out the virus lives longer on surfaces than originally thought.

Ultimately it's a virus. Anyone thinking it can be stopped without a fully implemented vaccine is fooling themselves. The flu hasn't yet been stopped despite having vaccines.

The people most at risk of dying should be sheltering in place. Most of them know it by now, yet they don't want to protect themselves.

There have been many posts on here from the OpenUp group that say it's just the flu. Honestly I don't need to rationalize anything. You yourself said people who are at risk need to shelter in place. I too agree people who are at risk need to shelter in place. But aren't we really saying, people who don't feel safe and don't want to risk getting the virus need to shelter in place. Because that's what it really comes down to, people making a choice as to how much they're willing to risk. If a majority of the people don't feel it's safe to venture out, what do you think the outcome will be? Is the real goal for the OpenUp people is for the Country to get back to normal? So the big question for you is, how do we go back to normal if even 50% of the people don't feel safe and won't want to go out? You can't make them go to stores. They're certainly not going to feel safer by having a bunch of Karen's screaming at people. The higher percentage of people that feel safe, the closer you are to normal. Choose to do little or nothing and you get the results you want.

 

[DFSNOLE]

What could have been done since May, in Florida, to prevent those deaths?

You know my answer. Let the science and not the calendar determine the rate of reopening and ENFORCE YOUR OWN DAMN GUIDELINES! Both DeSantis and Rick Scott admitted that expecting people to follow the rules on their own wasn't working but then they did nothing to rectify that.

 

[Finance85]

You know my answer. Let the science and not the calendar determine the rate of reopening and ENFORCE YOUR OWN DAMN GUIDELINES! Both DeSantis and Rick Scott admitted that expecting people to follow the rules on their own wasn't working but then they did nothing to rectify that.

I do know your answer, and I respect it because you are honest about it.

How would you have reimbursed all the business owners for their lost business, and the workers who were out of work?

What would you have done if the virus numbers never decreased? Would you have kept the lockdown indefinitely?

How would have enforced the rules on closures, mask wearing, elective surgical procedures, etc.? Fines? Jail?

 

[RileyHawk]

Nobody is saying it's just the flu. Nobody is saying it should be BAU. That's a false narrative. But you can embrace it if it makes you feel better, and as a way to try and rationalize your criticism.

Perhaps you haven't seen the CDC article yesterday that reviews the effectiveness of masks. If you are truly interested in science, you'll take a look. I'm sure you understand that all masks aren't created equal. And now we're finding out the virus lives longer on surfaces than originally thought.

Ultimately it's a virus. Anyone thinking it can be stopped without a fully implemented vaccine is fooling themselves. The flu hasn't yet been stopped despite having vaccines.

The people most at risk of dying should be sheltering in place. Most of them know it by now, yet they don't want to protect themselves.

This is completely disingenuous. There are lots of people saying it's "just the flu" and science has demonstrated that wearing masks and distancing aid in preventing the spread of the virus. Simply mandating masks and enforcing social distancing guidelines would have avoided many, many cases. Suggesting nothing else could have been done short of total lockdown is absurd and intellectually lazy.

 

[Finance85]

This is completely disingenuous. There are lots of people saying it's "just the flu" and science has demonstrated that wearing masks and distancing aid in preventing the spread of the virus. Simply mandating masks and enforcing social distancing guidelines would have avoided many, many cases. Suggesting nothing else could have been done short of total lockdown is absurd and intellectually lazy.

I'll concede there are a some people saying that. Will you should concede there are people who still think we should be locked down?

 

[DFSNOLE]

I do know your answer, and I respect it because you are honest about it.

How would you have reimbursed all the business owners for their lost business, and the workers who were out of work?

What would you have done if the virus numbers never decreased? Would you have kept the lockdown indefinitely?

How would have enforced the rules on closures, mask wearing, elective surgical procedures, etc.? Fines? Jail?

Would every small business come out of this okay? No but that is not much different than normal for small businesses. DeSantis should've had the balls to enact a statewide mask mandate as several other GOP governors did. Civil citations for those who refused to comply. That would've taken all of the pressure off the individual businesses. You know that I applauded his phase 1 opening measures but before any data could come in, he expanded it. Florida became the epicenter of the virus in the country and he sat back and failed to lead. I wish his office was up for election this year because I think he would be gone if so.

 

[hawkland14]

Would every small business come out of this okay? No but that is not much different than normal for small businesses. DeSantis should've had the balls to enact a statewide mask mandate as several other GOP governors did. Civil citations for those who refused to comply. That would've taken all of the pressure off the individual businesses. You know that I applauded his phase 1 opening measures but before any data could come in, he expanded it. Florida became the epicenter of the virus in the country and he sat back and failed to lead. I wish his office was up for election this year because I think he would be gone if so.

Before this all done every region of the country is going to become the epicenter at some point. Guess what a virus doesn’t care about silly government policy and virtue signaling. It’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. Europe wave 2.0 is a prime example. Peru is a prime example. But keep piling on DeSantis because red team bad blue team good.

 

[RileyHawk]

I'll concede there are a some people saying that. Will you should concede there are people who still think we should be locked down?

Define "locked down".

 

[RileyHawk]

Before this all done every region of the country is going to become the epicenter at some point. Guess what a virus doesn’t care about silly government policy and virtue signaling. It’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. Europe wave 2.0 is a prime example. Peru is a prime example. But keep piling on DeSantis because red team bad blue team good.

No. A second wave was predicted early on by epidemiologists. The difference between Europe and the US is that they followed reasonable measures to knock the virus down significantly in the summer - the US didn't and is still dealing with a very long 1st wave. Leadership in the US failed.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Before this all done every region of the country is going to become the epicenter at some point. Guess what a virus doesn’t care about silly government policy and virtue signaling. It’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. Europe wave 2.0 is a prime example. Peru is a prime example. But keep piling on DeSantis because red team bad blue team good.

That is BS rationalization and nothing more. You were the one who said we all owed DeSantis an apology before Florida blew up. And then you ran like a coward and refused to admit that you were wrong. Correct @St. Louis Hawk? DeSantis' failure to lead from the front because he admittedly wanted to please the White House costs lives in the state he was elected to lead.

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

That is BS rationalization and nothing more. You were the one who said we all owed DeSantis an apology before Florida blew up. And then you ran like a coward and refused to admit that you were wrong. Correct @St. Louis Hawk? DeSantis' failure to lead from the front because he admittedly wanted to please the White House costs lives in the state he was elected to lead.

You said it.

Let me see if I can find the video of DeSantis strutting around like the cock of the walk when he made his statement.

 

[coloradonoles]

 

[DFSNOLE]

View embedded media

View embedded media

How did it work out for DeSantis last time he made a similar move? Should I search your posting history to find the thread where you lambasted him for his premature decision?

 

[coloradonoles]

How did it work out for DeSantis last time he made a similar move? Should I search your posting history to find the thread where you lambasted him for his premature decision?

You are barking up the wrong tree... I am firmly in the 'We should have never locked down in the first place' camp.

 

[coloradonoles]

 

[Joes Place]

...meanwhile...the US just hit >70,000 new cases TODAY.

Highest daily count since July.

 

[DFSNOLE]

You are barking up the wrong tree... I am firmly in the 'We should have never locked down in the first place' camp.

There is no doubt about that. From the very beginning you have cared more about the value of your 401k than for the lives of people infected.

 

[DFSNOLE]

View embedded media

Who is still sheltering in place? Our idiot governor has for the second time claimed victory while leading the nation in daily deaths.

 

[The Tradition]

Who is still sheltering in place? Our idiot governor has for the second time claimed victory while leading the nation in daily deaths.

Florida is the third most-populated state and has the most residents over the age of 65 by far (only Maine has more per million, but Florida crushes Maine in total numbers).

So, it's not unsurprising that Florida would have a high number of total deaths.

 

[DFSNOLE]

Florida is the third most-populated state and has the most residents over the age of 65 by far (only Maine has more per million, but Florida crushes Maine in total numbers).

So, it's not unsurprising that Florida would have a high number of total deaths.

And the vast majority of them have come since DeSantis first spiked the ball, right?

 

[seminole97]

So are we thanking DeSantis now? I haven't seen a Trad thread about "look at FL doing well" thread in a while.

The goal of flattening the curve was to prevent overwhelming the hospitals.
Given that you measure progress in two ways, how much of the population it has progressed through, and whether the hospitals are over capacity.

Still seems like there is a sense the genie will get back in the bottle.
I don’t see it. Europe seems to indicate you enjoy it now or later.

It does seem to have evolved to something much less deadly than was making headlines in Italy in March.

 

[The Tradition]

And the vast majority of them have come since DeSantis first spiked the ball, right?

DeSantis never spiked the ball. He correctly determined that shutdowns are "cures" that are worse than the disease.

 

[DFSNOLE]

DeSantis never spiked the ball. He correctly determined that shutdowns are "cures" that are worse than the disease.

Bull. Crap.