Cass was the better wrestler in those matches... AND got hosed BADLY by the ref twice. I’m extremely confident Cass would roll Schultz with relative ease in folk.
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Kerkvliet Reopens Recruiting
- Thread starter IAChief32
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Cass was the better wrestler in those matches... AND got hosed BADLY by the ref twice. I’m extremely confident Cass would roll Schultz with relative ease in folk.
What's your point? I didn't come away from that debate thinking or saying Cass was going to tech Parris in under 3 minutes in folk. The match will be much closer but I still think Cass comes out on top. Same with Gable vs Cass. If Kerk wrestles Gable right now in freestyle, Kerk is getting teched.
Teammates, or training partners have much closer matches. I thought this was well established.
Kerk is a weight class down, not his teammate, and while they train together, it's nowehere near the level of training together b/w Costello and Stoll, plus Stoll was coming off his second serious knee injury, plus Stoll isn't as good as Gable.
Plus you're now arguing out of both sides of your mouth. If Kerk is able to keep it razor thin due to being his teammate, why is he suddenly getting smoked via tech in Freestyle.
Look, I don't want to keep having this debate where we keep saying the same stuff to each other and nobody changes their mind. I WANT Cass to be the best, but my opinion is that there are guys that are better than him as college prospects. I'll let you and anyone else who wants to disagree have the last word, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
I'll bet you Cass has a better college career than Kerk. Better yet I bet Cass wins head to head.
Because more points are scored in freestyle. Example: Jack Jessen beat Kerk in junior duals. Takedown to gut...over in the first minute. That, plus Gable is world class at freestyle...awesome at par terre and can end it very quickly.
I have no issue with you thinking Kerk is a better college prospect than Cass. I am on the fence with that myself but everybody has been talking about Cass reaching some sort of ceiling. Parris was predicted to beat him even though Parris had very little freestyle. Cass handled him. It wasn't the score that impressed me, it was Cass's athleticism, strength, and technique. Just saying, lots of people are doubting this kid for no real good reasons.
Those people doubting him are not from Illinois. We have had some darn good heavies come out of Illinois and not do much afterwards, so we know the difference. You guys are going to have a hard time figuring out which one you like better. Spencer or Cass. Talk about a great way to start and end a dual meet. That is it right there!
A close HS folkstyle match, in some venues, also doesn't really give much insight. Look at the size of the mats in some of these high school matches, very little if any leeway is given on the edge wrestling and going out of bounds. Makes for a lot of stopped scoring positions on the edge and tons of restarts. If Gable and Kerk had wrestled folkstyle at Flonationals I think there would be a little more separation between the two than the 3-2 score we saw, IIRC Gable had a few scoring opportunities that were nullified due to OOB/Small mat limitations in their match.
This post was an incredible waste of your time brotato chip...
Not to mention Cass’ best training partner for the last 2 years has been his nearly 40 year old coach... He’s had very limited competition via regular workouts and live go’s. Think about that a moment... It’s simply idiotic to think that Cass is anywhere close to his ceiling. Not to mention the off the mat stuff. Cass is a rare recruit on and off the mat that D1 coaches droll over. To think Cass’ matches in the future vs Gable, Kerk, Parris, Schultz, etc won’t be anything other than exciting AF with Cass coming out on top in his share is also idiotic, IMO.
Ever hear of a guy named Hasilrig? Was the BEST Hvy in my opinion of all time! He would also have destroyed these "smaller" guys! He was BIG had Technique, and could move.
If any of these bigger guys can do the same. It is also very easy to predict the out come of someone who weighs 275 against someone who weighs 220!
For those not at the DM meeting last night, suffice it to say Coach is just a little excited about Cass. He also had a great story about the Lee family basically kidnapping DeSanto to get him in the room. He went through the line-up and we are going to be a lot better than people think in my opinion. I know, I know he is the coach, etc., so what is he gonna say. But in my conversations with Coach, we are going to be right there. I will also say he is way high on Murin.
Wow did this thread go all over the place, hard to just pick one topic.
But here are some of my observations....
1) Cael can recruit..no doubt about it and his success can not be denied at PSU. Shame he didn't have as much success at ISU.
2) who cares who goes where, if they don't want to be a Hawkeye, then we don't need them. Instead of looking at the glass as half full, appreciate the guys who have committed to Iowa. So Big Cass, love you're a Hawk and look forward to seeing you kick some butt.
3)from way back memory banks, Kevin Darkus was top recruit going to ISU, Barry Davis wasn't..he got pinned in freestyle, beat several other times. And yet Darkus only won a title when Barry took Olympic redshirt. I could fill pages with underanked Iowa wrestlers beating guys supposed to be better. So let's quit with I'd rather have so and so...have faith that our staff will bring out the best.
Finally be proud of all the success Iowa has had, from Olympic glory, world champs, NCAA titles, Grapple on the gridiron, hosting outstanding world events.. USA freestyle trials, the list goes on. No school has been more successful in our life times and done more for Wrestling than Iowa, and it's not just America that knows this, it's the world.
But here are some of my observations....
1) Cael can recruit..no doubt about it and his success can not be denied at PSU. Shame he didn't have as much success at ISU.
2) who cares who goes where, if they don't want to be a Hawkeye, then we don't need them. Instead of looking at the glass as half full, appreciate the guys who have committed to Iowa. So Big Cass, love you're a Hawk and look forward to seeing you kick some butt.
3)from way back memory banks, Kevin Darkus was top recruit going to ISU, Barry Davis wasn't..he got pinned in freestyle, beat several other times. And yet Darkus only won a title when Barry took Olympic redshirt. I could fill pages with underanked Iowa wrestlers beating guys supposed to be better. So let's quit with I'd rather have so and so...have faith that our staff will bring out the best.
Finally be proud of all the success Iowa has had, from Olympic glory, world champs, NCAA titles, Grapple on the gridiron, hosting outstanding world events.. USA freestyle trials, the list goes on. No school has been more successful in our life times and done more for Wrestling than Iowa, and it's not just America that knows this, it's the world.
Young and Dawg at those weights. Didn't say much about Bull or Dawg. Talked about Bull's loss with the Stickley tragedy and how a group of Iowa guys went to the services in Ohio. Young seems to be holding weight well and just needs match confidence. And Cash has really trimmed up and in much better shape. Just needs to learn how to "go to the well" and finish. Lee, DeSanto and Murin are gonna be a hell of a punch out of the gate. Warner is an animal. Lugo has really bought in and looks good. Nelson needs to even his performance level out. His Dad and Uncle aren't thrilled with a 3rd place Fargo finish. Lee is dead even with Gilman. Stoll was an idiot (my word but you get the drift). I kind of skipped around and want to be careful about some things Tom has said. He clearly likes the trajectory we are on.
Funny Fletch - yes. Hopeful the ISU meet with be at night December 1. Still waiting for confirm but that is the plan. With a pre-meet get together at the The Big Grove Brewery it sounds like.
Lol! Talk about cherry picking.
So bringing up English who manages to a single AA placement (7th) in his 6th year at PSU proves Cael's coaching prowess?
How about Gulibon, who beat Cory Clark in HS, and was #1 in his HS weight class and top 3 p4p... and finished with a single AA (5th). Compared to Clark 4x AA, including a championship with a bad shoulder.
Or Dylan and Andrew Alton, both top 10 p4p, both ranked #1 at their HS weight (as jrs, no less), and combined for a single AA finish at PSU.
I think most any top d1 program can yield some unexpected upside outcomes. Look at what Jordan Burroughs did at Nebraska.
PSU generally starts out with recruits at such a high level, unprecedented really. One can cherry pick and say some of these high level guys fell short, while some lower ranked guys exceeded expectations. Doesn't really prove much.
Fact is, most of PSU's lineup are the very elite of HS wrestling. That's a credit to the recruiting job by Cael and co, assuming it's done on a level playing field, a topic which some find debatable.
I don't say wrestlers don't improve under Cael, but the reality is, PSU's recruits have been the very best in HS, before even setting foot in the PSU room. Don't try to make it sound like Cael has magic fairy dust that develops low ranked wrestlers into champions like no one else.
IMO D. Gable could have beaten any of these fat boys in his prime...
Lol, what nonsense! I don't like to spend a lot of time bickering back and forth over here but your post fails so badly in both context and logic. The OP played your game and ignored certain guys that were examples of non bluechip recruits exceeding expectations to justify a delusional opinion. I simple added more names that were conveniently omitted. That's not cherry picking, that's correcting fake news. Now you mentioning Gulibon and the Altons, that's an excellent example of cherry picking.
Did you notice Penn State may have three 3-time champs this year!? They were ranked 3, 5, 7 out of high school so thats better then the 12 guys ranked ahead of them and more then all the other school combined, and all the other schools get the vast majority of top 10 recruits. It'a almost as if the top recruits can be developed to a higher level. But don't tell USA wrestling that, we need those fake jobs at the OTC; and don't tell those elite light weight recruits that the Brands brothers really have no impact. Guess Spencer Lee should of just went to Drexel.
Since you ignored the question, guess it's reasonable to assume the answer is that Brands haven't had any guys ranked outside the top 40 win a championship while Cael has had 2.
Yea, but I know, Jimmy Gulibon and the Altons, haha!
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Overall rankings aren't an exact science. Weight class rankings are usually more accurate and the gap between the top guy and everyone else can be pretty telling.
Let's take Nickal for example. The fact that he pretty much controlled Hall should have been a major indicator that he was going to be very good at the next level.
Still, I think you both are arguing on the ends of the spectrum, while the truth is closer to the middle.
1. Sanderson is the best recruiter there has ever been. That is undeniable. It isn't just about getting a top 10 recruit, it is finding the right one to fill an immediate need almost every time.
2. Guys DO get much better at PSU. That is undeniable.
3. The starting point is undeniably higher if you start with a blue chip recruit. Why even try to deny that?
4. For the longest time Brands didn't recruit that way. They have finally realized that is there only way to compete.
5. Brands did a great job of developing guys into AA's.
6. Sanderson did a great job developing guys into Champs.
So, where the true argument really sits, and we may actually have some data in a few short years to answer, is can Brands match the Sanderson output with the same level recruits?
So far Iowa has #2 Lee at 1,?,?,?-#9 Kemerer at 3,4,?,?, #3 Marinelli at 6,?,?,?, #7 Warner is about to start this year and #14 Cassioppi should factor in here as well. The next couple years recruiting should truly be the defining factor on if they can maintain and truly emerge as a challenger to PSU's reign.
Let's take Nickal for example. The fact that he pretty much controlled Hall should have been a major indicator that he was going to be very good at the next level.
Still, I think you both are arguing on the ends of the spectrum, while the truth is closer to the middle.
1. Sanderson is the best recruiter there has ever been. That is undeniable. It isn't just about getting a top 10 recruit, it is finding the right one to fill an immediate need almost every time.
2. Guys DO get much better at PSU. That is undeniable.
3. The starting point is undeniably higher if you start with a blue chip recruit. Why even try to deny that?
4. For the longest time Brands didn't recruit that way. They have finally realized that is there only way to compete.
5. Brands did a great job of developing guys into AA's.
6. Sanderson did a great job developing guys into Champs.
So, where the true argument really sits, and we may actually have some data in a few short years to answer, is can Brands match the Sanderson output with the same level recruits?
So far Iowa has #2 Lee at 1,?,?,?-#9 Kemerer at 3,4,?,?, #3 Marinelli at 6,?,?,?, #7 Warner is about to start this year and #14 Cassioppi should factor in here as well. The next couple years recruiting should truly be the defining factor on if they can maintain and truly emerge as a challenger to PSU's reign.
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Well - PSU recruits age level world champs. With Zain gone they're down to only four. It's gonna be a challenge.
So do we read that as Cash is going 84? Plenty of speculation over the last few years but haven't seen any 'official' word on the plan. He didn't certify 84 last year.
I'm in a business lunch at a medical clinic chatting with nurses and reading at the same time. Just waiting for docs to show up. Damn you Pablow, this one had me shooting Diet Coke out my nose. Nurses looked at me like the idiot they have always thought I was.
Btw. I love Iowa football, but would gladly sleep through the first half of the FB season so we can start wrestling
GO HAWKS!!!!
If you don't understand that he's going down you haven't been paying attention.
I believe he did certify at 84. No matter how the Downey thing turned out, he was best served at 197.
Someone tweeted Kerk started following Jaggers fwiw
But on the recent FRL, CP seemed pretty sold on Kerk to PSU cause they were pretty buddy buddy at OTC.
Also, Willie equates recruiting over #10pfp and #2 heavyweight (this was his ranking when he committed) Seth Nevills as Iowa recruiting over Costello with Cass, who I don’t think was top 100?
Nothing agasint Costello, the kid has guts and determination very few his age have, but to make this comparison, SMH. Willi really showed his hand on that one
But on the recent FRL, CP seemed pretty sold on Kerk to PSU cause they were pretty buddy buddy at OTC.
Also, Willie equates recruiting over #10pfp and #2 heavyweight (this was his ranking when he committed) Seth Nevills as Iowa recruiting over Costello with Cass, who I don’t think was top 100?
Nothing agasint Costello, the kid has guts and determination very few his age have, but to make this comparison, SMH. Willi really showed his hand on that one
The Flo guys said he was training specifically with Carl at the OTC that could have something to do with it and the younger Nevills is not as good as his older brother.
Yes at 184 for Cash. Tom said he has looked really good one he slimmed down. In way better shape and ready so long as he learns how to dig a little deeper and finish but being in better shape will help.
I heard that one as I was driving over to Ames today and laughed my ass off at that one. I like Costello and he provides great depth but not the same at all.
Me too chief
I literally laughed out loud when he said that
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