Latest Israeli - Palestian conflict origin. Agree or Disagree?

[LuciousBDragon]

The Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood (east Jerusalem) and a relatively easy to understand property dispute. Local courts upheld longstanding universally recognized law that says “if you don’t pay rent, you move out.” This had nothing to do with Israeli’s “cleansing” a neighborhood. Rather, it was a decades old property dispute that was ruled on that said the Palestinian squatter‘s time was up and the Jewish owners had every right to evict. A simple private property dispute.

Then, add the timing with the end of Ramadan so you had an emotional high for the area Arabs. Small clashes are the norm and this news added fuel to the flames. This tends to be the youth in the area who choose to participate in little street skirmishes & protests.

Add, a new US administration who took office in the last few months, ready to be challenged.

Finally, add Hamas who saw the scene and timing as the ultimate opportunity to press the West. Always eager to tell a “woe is us” narrative to any progressive media outlet who will carry it, Hamas started rocket attacks from strongholds in Gaza. It was not Palestinian retaliation to a human-rights/Geneva Convention violation. It was ripe & perfect timIng for provocation of Israel.

Agree/Disagree? Thoughts

 

[Rifler]

Don't care,.. Leave the entire region alone for the next 50 years, see who's left, and then tell them to piss off.

 

[BelemNole]

I'm pro civilians and I disagree.

 

[SSG T]

Aren't the properties they are talking about in East Jerusalem? That was originally part of the Palestinian side in the original 1948 UN Proposal?

Everything in this dispute, both current and recent past, leads back to 1947-48, the lack of international assistance and the lack of either side accepting the UN proposal fully.

And even that goes back to European powers spending centuries screwing up the ME and the US joining in the fun post WWII.

 

[SSG T]

Don't care,.. Leave the entire region alone for the next 50 years, see who's left, and then tell them to piss off.

I wouldn't go that far, but outsiders aren't going to be able to force the issue.

Arming one side and not the other, however, will definitely affect the outcome.

 

[torbee]

The Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood (east Jerusalem) and a relatively easy to understand property dispute. Local courts upheld longstanding universally recognized law that says “if you don’t pay rent, you move out.” This had nothing to do with Israeli’s “cleansing” a neighborhood. Rather, it was a decades old property dispute that was ruled on that said the Palestinian squatter‘s time was up and the Jewish owners had every right to evict. A simple private property dispute.

Then, add the timing with the end of Ramadan so you had an emotional high for the area Arabs. Small clashes are the norm and this news added fuel to the flames. This tends to be the youth in the area who choose to participate in little street skirmishes & protests.

Add, a new US administration who took office in the last few months, ready to be challenged.

Finally, add Hamas who saw the scene and timing as the ultimate opportunity to press the West. Always eager to tell a “woe is us” narrative to any progressive media outlet who will carry it, Hamas started rocket attacks from strongholds in Gaza. It was not Palestinian retaliation to a human-rights/Geneva Convention violation. It was ripe & perfect timIng for provocation of Israel.

Agree/Disagree? Thoughts

Unneeded provocation by Israel.
Unneeded escalation by Hamas.

Israelis need to sit down and hammer out a legit 2 state solution or this same stupid cycle will repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and sow nothing but chaos and death.

 

[torbee]

Don't care,.. Leave the entire region alone for the next 50 years, see who's left, and then tell them to piss off.

Hope you are all in on the Green New Deal and conversion to 100 percent renewable energy then.

Because until we break our oil addiction, we are pot-committed in the Mideast.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Unneeded provocation by Israel.
Unneeded escalation by Hamas.

Israelis need to sit down and hammer out a legit 2 state solution or this same stupid cycle will repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and sow nothing but chaos and death.

What provocation by Israel?

How do you get a two-state solution when the military powers of Palestine openly declare they do not want a two-state solution?

 

[SSG T]

Unneeded provocation by Israel.
Unneeded escalation by Hamas.

Israelis need to sit down and hammer out a legit 2 state solution or this same stupid cycle will repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and sow nothing but chaos and death.

Agreed. It needs to be the two sides (well, three really) that come up with it and agree to it. The rest of the world needs to stay out of it other than to stick the two sides in a room and not let them out until an agreement is made.

Others making the agreement for them might fix the short term, but long term will still be a disaster.

 

[Rifler]

Hope you are all in on the Green New Deal and conversion to 100 percent renewable energy then.
Because until we break our oil addiction, we are pot-committed in the Mideast.

We were doing fine without Middle East oil just a few months ago...

 

[torbee]

What provocation by Israel?

How do you get a two-state solution when the military powers of Palestine openly declare they do not want a two-state solution?

This article details the three that kicked off this latest round very well - the TL/DR version is disrupting prayers at the Al Aqsa mosque, denying access to one of the last remaining public spaces open to Palestinians at the East Gate and the eviction of six families who have lived in the same spot since the 1950s. But I would suggest reading the entire article - I think it is pretty fairly balanced:


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/...an-gaza-war.html?referringSource=articleShare

 

[LuciousBDragon]

This article details the three that kicked off this latest round very well - the TL/DR version is disrupting prayers at the Al Aqsa mosque, denying access to one of the last remaining public spaces open to Palestinians at the East Gate and the eviction of six families who have lived in the same spot since the 1950s. But I would suggest reading the entire article - I think it is pretty fairly balanced:


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/...an-gaza-war.html?referringSource=articleShare

You realize the eviction was perfectly legal and was brought before their Supreme Court?

You realize Hamas and the Palestinian leaders regularly claim interference around the Temple Mount. It’s basically a weekly occurrence. Not to mention the fact the Jews basically have no access on top of the Temple Mount because of the Palestinians.

So…..all that was worth Hamas launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel??? A legal private property eviction and same old rousing that happens almost every other day? These rockets are not bottle rockets. They’re a legitimate threat.



Another viewpoint…
https://www.wsj.com/articles/almost...ut-evictions-in-jerusalem-is-true-11621019410

 

[torbee]

You realize the eviction was perfectly legal and was brought before their Supreme Court?

You realize Hamas and the Palestinian leaders regularly claim interference around the Temple Mount. It’s basically a weekly occurrence. Not to mention the fact the Jews basically have no access on top of the Temple Mount because of the Palestinians.

So…..all that was worth Hamas launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel??? A legal private property eviction and same old rousing that happens almost every other day? These rockets are not bottle rockets. They’re a legitimate threat.



Another viewpoint…
https://www.wsj.com/articles/almost...ut-evictions-in-jerusalem-is-true-11621019410

Did you miss the part where I said “unnecessary escalation” by Hamas?

Whether you think they are justified or not, they were provoked. Do I personally think it merited firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians? Hell no. But seriously, going into the holiest mosque on the eve of Ramadan and cutting power to speakers while an Imam is praying is not “provocation” in your world? Cmon, man.

You are playing the game of “who started it” and “who does worse things” and that will never, ever end the violence.

 

[BrunoMars420]

Let the brits handle it

 

[torbee]

Let the brits handle it

It’s their goddamn fault it’s a shitshow now.

Maybe make them PAY for it, but I don’t want those dumbasses making maps or picking winners again.

 

[WisestIowan]

Who cares? And why are we spending taxpayer money on it. Let em kill each other and sort it all out at the end. That goes for every country in the world except the ole US of A.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Did you miss the part where I said “unnecessary escalation” by Hamas?

Whether you think they are justified or not, they were provoked. Do I personally think it merited firing indiscriminate missiles at civilians? Hell no. But seriously, going into the holiest mosque on the eve of Ramadan and cutting power to speakers while an Imam is praying is not “provocation” in your world? Cmon, man.

You are playing the game of “who started it” and “who does worse things” and that will never, ever end the violence.

And the Jews can claim they had the right since down below on the western wall was the President of Israel giving a Memorial Day address.

To be clear, Israel did not initiate any violence. No rockets, no incendiary balloons, no shootings. Hamas will always claim they were “provoked.” That hasn’t changed in decades.

The violence only possibly ends when Hamas is no more. Israel’s restraint is what the subject of the news should be.

 

[torbee]

And the Jews can claim they had the right since down below on the western wall was the President of Israel giving a Memorial Day address.

To be clear, Israel did not initiate any violence. No rockets, no incendiary balloons, no shootings. Hamas will always claim they were “provoked.” That hasn’t changed in decades.

The violence only possibly ends when Hamas is no more. Israel’s restraint is what the subject of the news should be.

Israel official policy initiates violence every single day. As does Hamas.

Again, this will continue until each side - and their enablers - stop trying to say their side is the righteous one.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Israel official policy initiates violence every single day.

Link or source of this statement would be good Torbee.

 

[ATLNole1]

These two groups don't need a reason. They have been fighting for the previous 1,000 years and will still be fighting 1,000 years from now if anyone is still left.

 

[torbee]

Link or source of this statement would be good Torbee.

A large percentage of the Palestinian population of Israel reside in literal “occupied” territory and are subject to regular searches, checkpoints and other military occupation rules. The drinking water in Gaza is non-potable and there is typically less than 8 hours of electricity a day. Access to medical care is limited.

The IDF says these measures are necessary to choke off Hamas - and they very well may be right about that. But it is still violence. Because the two sides are on war footing.

As I’ve continually said in thread after thread on this topic, I am not interested in who is more to blame, whose acts are more deplorable and who started it. Presumably, there are answers to those questions but if there is ever to be peace, those answers are irrelevant.

 

[torbee]

Also, for the record, I was super pro-Israel for years. I even wrote a 15 page paper in my Human Geography class at Iowa about the “success story of the Zionist movement.”

I think Israel should be a state. I think the Jewish people deserve a homeland. I think they have been subject to too much animosity from much of the Arab world. I think terrorism exists and is being used as a weapon against the Israelis and terrorism should never be a tool of diplomacy.

But the Israelis have also behaved very, very badly to the Palestinians who were completely effed over by Great Britain. They have set up what is essentially an apartheid state that treats their Palestinian citizens as second class. My position is this is an untenable situation that will do nothing but perpetuate the cycle of violence until a two-state solution is found.

 

[Nole Lou]

I'm pro civilians and I disagree.

Belem, out of the Palestinians killed, how many are civilians, and how many are fighters?

Of the civilians killed, how many are killed by Israeli air strikes, and how many are killed by misfired Hamas rockets landing in Palestine?

 

[torbee]

Belem, out of the Palestinians killed, how many are civilians, and how many are fighters?

Of the civilians killed, how many are killed by Israeli air strikes, and how many are killed by misfired Hamas rockets landing in Palestine?

At least 213 Palestinians have been killed in airstrikes since, including 61 children, with more than 1,440 people wounded, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not break the numbers down into fighters and civilians. Hamas and Islamic Jihad say at least 20 of their fighters have been killed, while Israel says the number is at least 160.

Twelve people in Israel, including a 5-year-old boy, have been killed in the ongoing rocket attacks.


As the fighting drags on, medical supplies, fuel and water are running low in Gaza, which is home to more than 2 million Palestinians and under an Israeli-Egyptian blockade since Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007. Nearly 47,000 Palestinians have fled their homes.

Israeli attacks have damaged at least 18 hospitals and clinics and destroyed one health facility, the World Health Organization said. Nearly half of all essential drugs in the territory have run out.

Palestinians go on strike as Israel-Hamas fighting rages

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians across Israel and the occupied territories went on strike in a rare collective protest Tuesday as Israeli missiles toppled a building in Gaza and militants in the Hamas-ruled territory fired dozens of rockets that killed two people.

apnews.com

 

[LuciousBDragon]

A large percentage of the Palestinian population of Israel reside in literal “occupied” territory and are subject to regular searches, checkpoints and other military occupation rules. The drinking water in Gaza is non-potable and there is typically less than 8 hours of electricity a day. Access to medical care is limited.

The IDF says these measures are necessary to choke off Hamas - and they very well may be right about that. But it is still violence. Because the two sides are on war footing.

As I’ve continually said in thread after thread on this topic, I am not interested in who is more to blame, whose acts are more deplorable and who started it. Presumably, there are answers to those questions but if there is ever to be peace, those answers are irrelevant.

Blame Hamas for all of the above. They rule Gaza but do nothing to provide infrastructure for their own people they claim they are fighting for. Israel is willing to help provide care for Palestinians and has even started to open up Parliament to them for representation. But, the Palestinians are faced with only two options:
1. Pledge allegiance to Hamas and choose that which starves them
2. Align with Israel despite religious beliefs. But this would mean they are subject to death by Hamas

Any discussion of peace must start with a plan to remove Hamas.

 

[cigaretteman]

Also, for the record, I was super pro-Israel for years. I even wrote a 15 page paper in my Human Geography class at Iowa about the “success story of the Zionist movement.”

I think Israel should be a state. I think the Jewish people deserve a homeland. I think they have been subject to too much animosity from much of the Arab world. I think terrorism exists and is being used as a weapon against the Israelis and terrorism should never be a tool of diplomacy.

But the Israelis have also behaved very, very badly to the Palestinians who were completely effed over by Great Britain. They have set up what is essentially an apartheid state that treats their Palestinian citizens as second class. My position is this is an untenable situation that will do nothing but perpetuate the cycle of violence until a two-state solution is found.

Very well put. I couldn't have written a better response myself.

 

[Nole Lou]

At least 213 Palestinians have been killed in airstrikes since, including 61 children, with more than 1,440 people wounded, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not break the numbers down into fighters and civilians. Hamas and Islamic Jihad say at least 20 of their fighters have been killed, while Israel says the number is at least 160.

Twelve people in Israel, including a 5-year-old boy, have been killed in the ongoing rocket attacks.


As the fighting drags on, medical supplies, fuel and water are running low in Gaza, which is home to more than 2 million Palestinians and under an Israeli-Egyptian blockade since Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007. Nearly 47,000 Palestinians have fled their homes.

Israeli attacks have damaged at least 18 hospitals and clinics and destroyed one health facility, the World Health Organization said. Nearly half of all essential drugs in the territory have run out.

Palestinians go on strike as Israel-Hamas fighting rages

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians across Israel and the occupied territories went on strike in a rare collective protest Tuesday as Israeli missiles toppled a building in Gaza and militants in the Hamas-ruled territory fired dozens of rockets that killed two people.

apnews.com

Exactly. All the numbers come from the Gaza Health Ministry, which is literally Hamas, and "which does not break the numbers down into fighters and civilians".

Also, surprising that not a single casualty is caused by misfired rockets, 25% of which fall in Palestine. That is shocking, especially since 17 were killed in one misfire before Israel even started air strikes. I guess the Israelis fired an airstrike into the past on that one.

It's almost like this information was coming straight from Hamas. Oh wait, it is.

I guess I shouldn't worry, I've been very dramatically assured that we have fine reliable media outlets over there, I think I read something about them having to move offices.

Surely they are providing some on the ground reporting about how many are killed by Hamas' own rockets, and how many of the deaths are fighters vs civilians? They must be providing some reporting on these deaths, something other than what comes from Hamas itself?

Gee, can anyone find that?

 

[torbee]

Exactly. All the numbers come from the Gaza Health Ministry, which is literally Hamas, and "which does not break the numbers down into fighters and civilians".

Also, surprising that not a single casualty is caused by misfired rockets, 25% of which fall in Palestine. That is shocking, especially since 17 were killed in one misfire before Israel even started air strikes. I guess the Israelis fired an airstrike into the past on that one.

It's almost like this information was coming straight from Hamas. Oh wait, it is.

I guess I shouldn't worry, I've been very dramatically assured that we have fine reliable media outlets over there, I think I read something about them having to move offices.

Surely they are providing some on the ground reporting about how many are killed by Hamas' own rockets, and how many of the deaths are fighters vs civilians? They must be providing some reporting on these deaths, something other than what comes from Hamas itself?

Gee, can anyone find that?

So you think those 61 children were fighters?

 

[torbee]

Blame Hamas for all of the above. They rule Gaza but do nothing to provide infrastructure for their own people they claim they are fighting for. Israel is willing to help provide care for Palestinians and has even started to open up Parliament to them for representation. But, the Palestinians are faced with only two options:
1. Pledge allegiance to Hamas and choose that which starves them
2. Align with Israel despite religious beliefs. But this would mean they are subject to death by Hamas

Any discussion of peace must start with a plan to remove Hamas.

Enjoy 100 more years of war and dead Jewish and Palestinian children with that attitude.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

They have set up what is essentially an apartheid state that treats their Palestinian citizens as second class.

Whoa! You understand that PM Sharon gave up Gaza voluntarily to the Palestinians as a peace offering. After the Oslo Accords, Gaza citizens chose Hamas as their leadership.

Let’s be clear - the people chose a terrorist organization.

Israel literally forced the removal of every single Jew from their own land and gave it all, 100% to the Palestinians. As a peace offering. All the Palestinians did in return was to vote for Hamas and allow them land to conduct a base for Jihad. This choice sets it apart from apartheid.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Enjoy 100 more years of war and dead Jewish and Palestinian children with that attitude.

So you are giving legitimacy to Hamas?

 

[torbee]

Whoa! You understand that PM Sharon gave up Gaza voluntarily to the Palestinians as a peace offering. After the Oslo Accords, Gaza citizens chose Hamas as their leadership.

Let’s be clear - the people chose a terrorist organization.

Israel literally forced the removal of every single Jew from their own land and gave it all, 100% to the Palestinians. As a peace offering. All the Palestinians did in return was to vote for Hamas and allow them land to conduct a base for Jihad. This choice sets it apart from apartheid.

That is an oversimplification and leaving out the major detail that it wasn’t “chosen” by anyone - it was the outcome of an inter-Palestinian civil war:

Can Anyone End the Palestinian Civil War?

A new agreement aims to mend the rift between Fatah and Hamas — but the wounds may run too deep.

foreignpolicy.com

And finally, and I’ll likely end this conversation here as it doesn’t appear we will ever agree, you continue to need to pin all blame on one side and EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT it doesn’t matter. Peace will only be achieved when both sides stand down.

 

[Nole Lou]

So you think those 61 children were fighters?

Of course not. I didn't say that.

Some percentage of them are killed by Hamas rockets that land in Palestine.

And some percentage are killed by Israeli air strikes on legitimate targets that are purposely set up by Hamas to put civilians (including children) in danger.

And some might have been killed by Israeli airstrikes that are mistakes or misfire. Would be good to have that number.

I highly doubt the current narrative that Israel is targeting children and civilians in some kind of bloodlust, but if there is reporting that says that, let's hear it. Seems if that was the case there would be a shitload more dead than that.

But why don't we have ANY reporting on that? Any? I mean, literally any? Why don't any of the esteemed news organizations that had to move buildings give us ANY rough counts on that, why do we literally only have the numbers provided by terrorists?

Are more children being killed by Israeli strikes or Hamas rockets...don't you think that's an important distinction to know?

 

[Nole Lou]

That is an oversimplification and leaving out the major detail that it wasn’t “chosen” by anyone - it was the outcome of an inter-Palestinian civil war:

Can Anyone End the Palestinian Civil War?

A new agreement aims to mend the rift between Fatah and Hamas — but the wounds may run too deep.

foreignpolicy.com

And finally, and I’ll likely end this conversation here as it doesn’t appear we will ever agree, you continue to need to pin all blame on one side and EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT it doesn’t matter. Peace will only be achieved when both sides stand down.

I am not the biggest fan of Netanyahu by any means. I would like to see a more moderate person back in that position.

But Israel is a Democracy, and good luck having the people elect a more moderate and conciliatory leader when the opposition is Hamas. And the Palestinians did elect Hamas, who has refused to hold further elections.

The world should be pressuring Hamas to hold elections and supporting moderate Palestinian leadership. At that point, the US should again (as it has done in the past) exert pressure on Israel toward peace.

 

[torbee]

Of course not. I didn't say that.

Some percentage of them are killed by Hamas rockets that land in Palestine.

And some percentage are killed by Israeli air strikes on legitimate targets that are purposely set up by Hamas to put civilians (including children) in danger.

And some might have been killed by Israeli airstrikes that are mistakes or misfire. Would be good to have that number.

I highly doubt the current narrative that Israel is targeting children and civilians in some kind of bloodlust, but if there is reporting that says that, let's hear it. Seems if that was the case there would be a shitload more dead than that.

But why don't we have ANY reporting on that? Any? I mean, literally any? Why don't any of the esteemed news organizations that had to move buildings give us ANY rough counts on that, why do we literally only have the numbers provided by terrorists?

Are more children being killed by Israeli strikes or Hamas rockets...don't you think that's an important distinction to know?

The AP addresses that by explicitly stating the numbers are unverified. Not sure from who else or how else they could get casualty numbers. Like it or not, Hamas is the “official source” on the ground in Gaza.

 

[torbee]

I am not the biggest fan of Netanyahu by any means. I would like to see a more moderate person back in that position.

But Israel is a Democracy, and good luck having the people elect a more moderate and conciliatory leader when the opposition is Hamas. And the Palestinians did elect Hamas, who has refused to hold further elections.

The world should be pressuring Hamas to hold elections and supporting moderate Palestinian leadership. At that point, the US should again (as it has done in the past) exert pressure on Israel toward peace.

I agree with all of this.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

That is an oversimplification and leaving out the major detail that it wasn’t “chosen” by anyone - it was the outcome of an inter-Palestinian civil war:

Can Anyone End the Palestinian Civil War?

A new agreement aims to mend the rift between Fatah and Hamas — but the wounds may run too deep.

foreignpolicy.com

And finally, and I’ll likely end this conversation here as it doesn’t appear we will ever agree, you continue to need to pin all blame on one side and EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT it doesn’t matter. Peace will only be achieved when both sides stand down.

You’re right, it is overly simple. Hamas is the singular issue in the region.

Peace will not occur when both sides stand down because Hamas will never stand down. If you don’t understand that single sentence then you have no business discussing Middle East policy.

 

[torbee]

You’re right, it is overly simple. Hamas is the singular issue in the region.

Peace will not occur when both sides stand down because Hamas will never stand down. If you don’t understand that single sentence then you have no business discussing Middle East policy.

Sure Jan

 

[Titanhawk2]

Not sure what the rationale for launching rockets is

 

[torbee]

Not sure what the rationale for launching rockets is

Trying to win a war, probably.