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Lessons We Learned Too Late

Nat Algren

HB Legend
Nov 23, 2014
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https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...post_9_11_america_lessons_we_learned_too_late

To France from a Post-9/11 America: Lessons We Learned Too Late
By John W. Whitehead

The Rutheford Institute

November 17, 2015
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/11/john-w-whitehead/lessons-learned-late/#


“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ― Benjamin Franklin

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”—Hermann Goering, German military commander and Hitler’s designated successor

For those who remember when the first towers fell on 9/11, there is an unnerving feeling of déjà vu about the Paris attacks.

Once again, there is that same sense of shock. The same shocking images of carnage and grief dominating the news. The same disbelief that anyone could be so hateful, so monstrous, so evil as to do this to another human being. The same outpourings of support and unity from around the world. The same shared fear that this could easily have happened to us or our loved ones.

Now the drums of war are sounding. French fighter jets have carried out a series of “symbolic” air strikes on Syrian targets. France’s borders have been closed, Paris has been locked down and military personnel are patrolling its streets.

What remains to be seen is whether France, standing where the United States did 14 years ago, will follow in America’s footsteps as she grapples with the best way to shore up her defenses, where to draw the delicate line in balancing security with liberty, and what it means to secure justice for those whose lives were taken.

Here are some of the lessons we in the United States learned too late about allowing our freedoms to be eviscerated in exchange for the phantom promise of security.

Beware of mammoth legislation that expands the government’s powers at the citizenry’s expense. Rushed through Congress a mere 45 days after the 9/11 attacks, the USA Patriot Act drove a stake through the heart of the Bill of Rights, undermined civil liberties, expanded the government’s powers and opened the door to far-reaching surveillance by the government on American citizens.

Pre-emptive strikes will only lead to further blowback. Not content to wage war against Afghanistan, which served as the base for Osama bin Laden, the U.S. embarked on a pre-emptive war against Iraq in order to “stop any adversary challenging America’s military superiority and adopt a strike-first policy against terrorist threats ‘before they’re fully formed.’” We are still suffering the consequences of this failed policy, which has resulted in lives lost, taxpayer dollars wasted, the fomenting of hatred against the U.S. and the further radicalization of terrorist cells.

War is costly. There are many reasons to go to war, but those who have advocated that the U.S. remain at war, year after year, are the very entities that have profited most from these endless military occupations and exercises. Thus far, the U.S. taxpayer has been made to shell out more than $1.6 trillion on “military operations, the training of security forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, weapons maintenance, base support, reconstruction, embassy maintenance, foreign aid, and veterans’ medical care, as well as war-related intelligence operations not tracked by the Pentagon” since 2001. Other estimates that account for war-related spending, veterans’ benefits and various promissory notes place that figure closer to $4.4 trillion. That also does not include the more than 210,000 civilians killed so far, or the 7.6 million refugees displaced from their homes as a result of the endless drone strikes and violence.

Advocating torture makes you no better than terrorists. The horrors that took place at Abu Ghraib, the American-run prison in Iraq, continue to shock those with any decency. Photographs leaked to the media depicted “US military personnel humiliating, hurting and abusing Iraqi prisoners in a myriad of perverse ways. While American servicemen and women smiled and gave thumbs up, naked men were threatened by dogs, or were hooded, forced into sexual positions, placed standing with wires attached to their bodies, or left bleeding on prison floors.” Adding to the descent into moral depravity, the United States government legalized the use of torture, including waterboarding, in violation of international law and continues to sanction human rights violations in the pursuit of national security. The ramifications have been far-reaching, with local police now employing similar torture tactics at secret locations such as Homan Square in Chicago.

Allowing the government to spy on the citizenry will not reduce acts of terrorism, but it will result in a watched, submissive, surveillance society. A byproduct of this post 9/11-age in which we live, whether you’re walking through a store, driving your car, checking email, or talking to friends and family on the phone, you can be sure that some government agency, whether the NSA or some other entity, is listening in and tracking your behavior. This doesn’t even begin to touch on the corporate trackers such as Google that monitor your purchases, web browsing, Facebook posts and other activities taking place in the cyber sphere. We are all becoming data collected in government files. The chilling effect of this endless surveillance is a more anxious and submissive citizenry.

Don’t become so distracted by the news cycle that you lose sight of what the government is doing. The average American has a hard time keeping up with and remembering all of the “events,” manufactured or otherwise, which occur like clockwork and keep us distracted, deluded, amused, and insulated from the reality of the American police state. Whether these events are critical or unimportant, when we’re being bombarded with wall-to-wall news coverage and news cycles that change every few days, it’s difficult to stay focused on one thing—namely, holding the government accountable to abiding by the rule of law—and the powers-that-be understand this. In this way, regularly scheduled trivia and/or distractions that keep the citizenry tuned into the various breaking news headlines and entertainment spectacles also keep them tuned out to the government’s steady encroachments on their freedoms.

If you trade your freedom for security, the terrorists win. We’ve walked a strange and harrowing road since September 11, 2001, littered with the debris of our once-vaunted liberties. We have gone from a nation that took great pride in being a model of a representative democracy to being a model of how to persuade a freedom-loving people to march in lockstep with a police state. And in so doing, we have proven Osama Bin Laden right. He warned that “freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life.”

The lesson learned, as I document in my book Battlefield America: The War on the American People, is simply this: once you start down the road towards a police state, it will be very difficult to turn back.

Click link for balance:

The Best of John W. Whitehead
 
While I agree with much of the OP, what does the OP suggest a government do when attacked by terrorists? Nothing?
 
https://www.rutherford.org/publicat...post_9_11_america_lessons_we_learned_too_late

To France from a Post-9/11 America: Lessons We Learned Too Late
By John W. Whitehead

The Rutheford Institute

November 17, 2015


“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ― Benjamin Franklin

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”—Hermann Goering, German military commander and Hitler’s designated successor

For those who remember when the first towers fell on 9/11, there is an unnerving feeling of déjà vu about the Paris attacks.

Once again, there is that same sense of shock. The same shocking images of carnage and grief dominating the news. The same disbelief that anyone could be so hateful, so monstrous, so evil as to do this to another human being. The same outpourings of support and unity from around the world. The same shared fear that this could easily have happened to us or our loved ones.

Now the drums of war are sounding. French fighter jets have carried out a series of “symbolic” air strikes on Syrian targets. France’s borders have been closed, Paris has been locked down and military personnel are patrolling its streets.

What remains to be seen is whether France, standing where the United States did 14 years ago, will follow in America’s footsteps as she grapples with the best way to shore up her defenses, where to draw the delicate line in balancing security with liberty, and what it means to secure justice for those whose lives were taken.

Here are some of the lessons we in the United States learned too late about allowing our freedoms to be eviscerated in exchange for the phantom promise of security.

Beware of mammoth legislation that expands the government’s powers at the citizenry’s expense. Rushed through Congress a mere 45 days after the 9/11 attacks, the USA Patriot Act drove a stake through the heart of the Bill of Rights, undermined civil liberties, expanded the government’s powers and opened the door to far-reaching surveillance by the government on American citizens.

Pre-emptive strikes will only lead to further blowback. Not content to wage war against Afghanistan, which served as the base for Osama bin Laden, the U.S. embarked on a pre-emptive war against Iraq in order to “stop any adversary challenging America’s military superiority and adopt a strike-first policy against terrorist threats ‘before they’re fully formed.’” We are still suffering the consequences of this failed policy, which has resulted in lives lost, taxpayer dollars wasted, the fomenting of hatred against the U.S. and the further radicalization of terrorist cells.

War is costly. There are many reasons to go to war, but those who have advocated that the U.S. remain at war, year after year, are the very entities that have profited most from these endless military occupations and exercises. Thus far, the U.S. taxpayer has been made to shell out more than $1.6 trillion on “military operations, the training of security forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, weapons maintenance, base support, reconstruction, embassy maintenance, foreign aid, and veterans’ medical care, as well as war-related intelligence operations not tracked by the Pentagon” since 2001. Other estimates that account for war-related spending, veterans’ benefits and various promissory notes place that figure closer to $4.4 trillion. That also does not include the more than 210,000 civilians killed so far, or the 7.6 million refugees displaced from their homes as a result of the endless drone strikes and violence.

Advocating torture makes you no better than terrorists. The horrors that took place at Abu Ghraib, the American-run prison in Iraq, continue to shock those with any decency. Photographs leaked to the media depicted “US military personnel humiliating, hurting and abusing Iraqi prisoners in a myriad of perverse ways. While American servicemen and women smiled and gave thumbs up, naked men were threatened by dogs, or were hooded, forced into sexual positions, placed standing with wires attached to their bodies, or left bleeding on prison floors.” Adding to the descent into moral depravity, the United States government legalized the use of torture, including waterboarding, in violation of international law and continues to sanction human rights violations in the pursuit of national security. The ramifications have been far-reaching, with local police now employing similar torture tactics at secret locations such as Homan Square in Chicago.

Allowing the government to spy on the citizenry will not reduce acts of terrorism, but it will result in a watched, submissive, surveillance society. A byproduct of this post 9/11-age in which we live, whether you’re walking through a store, driving your car, checking email, or talking to friends and family on the phone, you can be sure that some government agency, whether the NSA or some other entity, is listening in and tracking your behavior. This doesn’t even begin to touch on the corporate trackers such as Google that monitor your purchases, web browsing, Facebook posts and other activities taking place in the cyber sphere. We are all becoming data collected in government files. The chilling effect of this endless surveillance is a more anxious and submissive citizenry.

Don’t become so distracted by the news cycle that you lose sight of what the government is doing. The average American has a hard time keeping up with and remembering all of the “events,” manufactured or otherwise, which occur like clockwork and keep us distracted, deluded, amused, and insulated from the reality of the American police state. Whether these events are critical or unimportant, when we’re being bombarded with wall-to-wall news coverage and news cycles that change every few days, it’s difficult to stay focused on one thing—namely, holding the government accountable to abiding by the rule of law—and the powers-that-be understand this. In this way, regularly scheduled trivia and/or distractions that keep the citizenry tuned into the various breaking news headlines and entertainment spectacles also keep them tuned out to the government’s steady encroachments on their freedoms.

If you trade your freedom for security, the terrorists win. We’ve walked a strange and harrowing road since September 11, 2001, littered with the debris of our once-vaunted liberties. We have gone from a nation that took great pride in being a model of a representative democracy to being a model of how to persuade a freedom-loving people to march in lockstep with a police state. And in so doing, we have proven Osama Bin Laden right. He warned that “freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life.”

The lesson learned, as I document in my book Battlefield America: The War on the American People, is simply this: once you start down the road towards a police state, it will be very difficult to turn back.

Click link for balance:

The Best of John W. Whitehead

France's issue is that they gave up "Essential Liberty, for Temporary Safety" long ago.
 
That's all fine for the future but doesn't answer the question. What should a government do when attacked by terrorists?
Seeing as all fingers are pointing at ISIS, which is a creation of the USA and a foe of Assad (who controls Syria), wouldn't it be natural to just bring the actual perps to justice? Why conflate it to mean all of Syria is guilty? Of course, as we know, Assad had been targeted a long time ago for regime change, as was Saddam. This is Iraq all over again. 15 of the 19 responsible for 9/11 were Saudi. Yet, Bush connected it to Saddam and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Meet the new boss......

Bottom line...stay out of other countries and quit killing innocents. People kind of resent that whether they are Christian, Jew or Muslim. They take up arms and fight the only way possible. The evil Assad is right about one thing. The West calls it terrorism when they are attacked. When the West attacks 3rd world countries, it's called spreading democracy.
 
Seeing as all fingers are pointing at ISIS, which is a creation of the USA and a foe of Assad (who controls Syria), wouldn't it be natural to just bring the actual perps to justice? Why conflate it to mean all of Syria is guilty? Of course, as we know, Assad had been targeted a long time ago for regime change, as was Saddam. This is Iraq all over again. 15 of the 19 responsible for 9/11 were Saudi. Yet, Bush connected it to Saddam and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Meet the new boss......

Bottom line...stay out of other countries and quit killing innocents. People kind of resent that whether they are Christian, Jew or Muslim. They take up arms and fight the only way possible. The evil Assad is right about one thing. The West calls it terrorism when they are attacked. When the West attacks 3rd world countries, it's called spreading democracy.
So let me get this right. If you were the President of France you would want to issue some Interpol arrest warrants for US officials in response to this attack? Do you know what officials? Would you expect the French people to support that response?
 
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They've been big government, open border, anti-gun for a hundred years.
So let me get this right. If you were the President of France you would want to issue some Interpol arrest warrants for US officials in response to this attack? Do you know what officials? Would you expect the French people to support that response?
So, your response would be to blow up a nation (most of whom are innocent women and children)? Good God! You're a psychopath. Do you work for the Dept. of Offense? Have you not seen the errors of the past 2 decades? You are promoting more of the same.
 
So, your response would be to blow up a nation (most of whom are innocent women and children)? Good God! You're a psychopath. Do you work for the Dept. of Offense? Have you not seen the errors of the past 2 decades? You are promoting more of the same.
Why are you guessing? Why not just ask me what I would do? I showed you that courtesy. Don't I consistently post STFO to all this mess? Why would you think I would want to bomb a nation? Your hair on fire hysterics don't lend your cause much credibility. Your inability to reason through a legitimate response should trouble you. Not so much because you don't know what to do, its a hard question after all. But because the only thing you want to do is reflexively blame Obama.
 
Why are you guessing? Why not just ask me what I would do? I showed you that courtesy. Don't I consistently post STFO to all this mess? Why would you think I would want to bomb a nation? Your hair on fire hysterics don't lend your cause much credibility. Your inability to reason through a legitimate response should trouble you. Not so much because you don't know what to do, its a hard question after all. But because the only thing you want to do is reflexively blame Obama.
What would you do?
 
I thought this was going to a thread about "Lessons we learned too late" instead of another political thread.

Here is the lesson I learned too late.

NEVER eat peaches and cheese....because the peaches will try to get out and the cheese won't let them.:(
 
What would you do?
As I said, its a hard question and not having the expertise I imagine my answer will be lacking. But if I was President of France I would try to address the problems in front of me rather than rail against American Imperialism. From watching the news today I understand that ISIS is crazy rich with a lot of hard assets. That seems like legit targets for the military to me. I'd go after their funding too, so that might mean some Saudi targets. Aren't the French known for their special ops abilities? No real need to carpet bomb nations here I think.

Seems to me it would be in the French and Europe's interests to stop the tide of refugees. I would put pressure on Jordan, Tunisia and other reasonable governments in the area to allow camps on their land. I would go in and fund and police and outfit the camps to a reasonable degree. I'd move my fleet into the Med and start transporting the refugees to my camps so that these folks stay out of the general European population. I'd get the rest of Europe to help.

Finally I would do all the not sexy things that normally solve crimes. Get the local Islamic groups to help. Infiltrate and cooperate and coordinate with all the stake holders. More background checks and profiling and monitoring and security at group events.

Finally, France used to own Syria. They may be uniquely positioned and now motivated to resolve this civil war. I'd make ending that job #1 even if I had to play ball with Russia so that ISIS could be clearly identified.
 
As I said, its a hard question and not having the expertise I imagine my answer will be lacking. But if I was President of France I would try to address the problems in front of me rather than rail against American Imperialism. From watching the news today I understand that ISIS is crazy rich with a lot of hard assets. That seems like legit targets for the military to me. I'd go after their funding too, so that might mean some Saudi targets. Aren't the French known for their special ops abilities? No real need to carpet bomb nations here I think.

Seems to me it would be in the French and Europe's interests to stop the tide of refugees. I would put pressure on Jordan, Tunisia and other reasonable governments in the area to allow camps on their land. I would go in and fund and police and outfit the camps to a reasonable degree. I'd move my fleet into the Med and start transporting the refugees to my camps so that these folks stay out of the general European population. I'd get the rest of Europe to help.

Finally I would do all the not sexy things that normally solve crimes. Get the local Islamic groups to help. Infiltrate and cooperate and coordinate with all the stake holders. More background checks and profiling and monitoring and security at group events.

Finally, France used to own Syria. They may be uniquely positioned and now motivated to resolve this civil war. I'd make ending that job #1 even if I had to play ball with Russia so that ISIS could be clearly identified.
Naive
 
That's all fine for the future but doesn't answer the question. What should a government do when attacked by terrorists?
Get out of their countries, and quit funding them. You reap what you sow. Statist madness is your cup of tea though.
 
All salient points, but OP article lost me a little at the 'horrors' from Abu Grahib prison.

If we're going to use that word to describe what went on there, what do we use to describe beheadings, the Paris attacks, the guy getting burned alive in a cage, etc?

Stay away from hyperbole is a lesson we still haven't learned.
 
As I said, its a hard question and not having the expertise I imagine my answer will be lacking. But if I was President of France I would try to address the problems in front of me rather than rail against American Imperialism. From watching the news today I understand that ISIS is crazy rich with a lot of hard assets. That seems like legit targets for the military to me. I'd go after their funding too, so that might mean some Saudi targets. Aren't the French known for their special ops abilities? No real need to carpet bomb nations here I think.

Seems to me it would be in the French and Europe's interests to stop the tide of refugees. I would put pressure on Jordan, Tunisia and other reasonable governments in the area to allow camps on their land. I would go in and fund and police and outfit the camps to a reasonable degree. I'd move my fleet into the Med and start transporting the refugees to my camps so that these folks stay out of the general European population. I'd get the rest of Europe to help.

Finally I would do all the not sexy things that normally solve crimes. Get the local Islamic groups to help. Infiltrate and cooperate and coordinate with all the stake holders. More background checks and profiling and monitoring and security at group events.

Finally, France used to own Syria. They may be uniquely positioned and now motivated to resolve this civil war. I'd make ending that job #1 even if I had to play ball with Russia so that ISIS could be clearly identified.
You speak with forked-tongue, Kemosabe. In your one post, you make note of your support of a STFO policy. Then you validate my thoughts re: your post in NOT railing against American imperialism. I thought STFO meant 'stay the f out'. You are promoting the status quo that has wrought such a f'd up world. You have defined insanity by continuing the same actions and expecting a different result. You allow the DNC to lead you around with their fingers up your nostrils even though Obama gives us perpetual war. Where's your consistency?

Yes, ISIS is crazy rich. They receive their funding from the CIA. Ill-trained Iraqi troops (by Americans) have left behind caches of sophisticated weaponry. What world are you living in where you think we would go after the Saudi's? We look away as they lead the world in beheadings. Yet, it's front page news when ISIS lops a head or two. We just sold SA $1.5 B in bombs to use on the defenseless Yemeni's.

Move your fleet into the Med? The US and France are already there. They have been there. Quit bombing the crap out of them and there is no migrant crisis. Sheesh!

This is all orchestrated theater. As I said in another thread, the real action is in the re-action. Cui bono. It's a back door entry into Syria. Kerry failed in 2013 with his lies. Putin stepped in and averted war. Russia is the prize. Iran is a geopolitical pivot. Syria is their ally. Take down Assad as has been the plan for over 15 years and Iran softens up.

That said, you were correct in your opening sentence.
 
You speak with forked-tongue, Kemosabe. In your one post, you make note of your support of a STFO policy. Then you validate my thoughts re: your post in NOT railing against American imperialism. I thought STFO meant 'stay the f out'. You are promoting the status quo that has wrought such a f'd up world. You have defined insanity by continuing the same actions and expecting a different result. You allow the DNC to lead you around with their fingers up your nostrils even though Obama gives us perpetual war. Where's your consistency?

Yes, ISIS is crazy rich. They receive their funding from the CIA. Ill-trained Iraqi troops (by Americans) have left behind caches of sophisticated weaponry. What world are you living in where you think we would go after the Saudi's? We look away as they lead the world in beheadings. Yet, it's front page news when ISIS lops a head or two. We just sold SA $1.5 B in bombs to use on the defenseless Yemeni's.

Move your fleet into the Med? The US and France are already there. They have been there. Quit bombing the crap out of them and there is no migrant crisis. Sheesh!

This is all orchestrated theater. As I said in another thread, the real action is in the re-action. Cui bono. It's a back door entry into Syria. Kerry failed in 2013 with his lies. Putin stepped in and averted war. Russia is the prize. Iran is a geopolitical pivot. Syria is their ally. Take down Assad as has been the plan for over 15 years and Iran softens up.

That said, you were correct in your opening sentence.
I'm describing what France should do. America should STFO.
 
That's all fine for the future but doesn't answer the question. What should a government do when attacked by terrorists?
It's interesting that we deny being bound by international law in the way we treat prisoners and bomb innocents because we aren't fighting a nation. But if we aren't warring against an enemy state, what are we doing?

We should treat these people as what they are: criminals. We know how to do that. Track them down, arrest them, try them. put them in jail.

The dynamics differ from your run-of-the-mill criminal gang. But the criminal justice model is still our best - and most civilized - response.

Not saying it would be easy, but it's the right thing to do.
 
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