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Matches that changed the sport

Lsanders20

HR MVP
Feb 11, 2007
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I have been watching a lot of wrestling films and documentaries due to still being depressed over the whole covid situation. I love the Terry film, Cary Kolat story, Dan Dennis, the 30 for 30 on Dave Schultz and Foxcatcher. If anyone has some that they have really enjoyed please post.

What is interesting from being a former wrestler and a fan for a long time is to think about how matches might have been different if the rules were the way there were today. Whether it was freestyle, folk, greco, whatever.

A few that stick out to me are the Jesse Delgado rule which we now see danger counts and takedowns awarded when it used to just be a stalemate most of the time. Great rule change.

Dan Dennis in his finals match against Ness. Ness took injury time that appeared to be a great Minnesota breather and we all know how this one ended. Now when a wrestler takes injury time the opponent gets his choice. Another great rule change.

Cary Kolat in the 97 Worlds his opponent kept taking breaks and untying his shoes for breathers. The next year you had to tape your strings.

There are many more and I am curious in this boring time of no sports to hear what some of the other ones are. I remember the side headlock from the top position, but cant remember who was famous for it. The stall warning on riding the ankle, etc.
 
Somewhat related, this reminds me of a match that I lost in high school due to the HS rule that if your opponent's shoulders are out of bounds, it doesn't count as back points. Lost out on at least 4 points of nearfall due to that rule and ended up losing the match by a point. The guy's entire body was in bounds except for head and shoulders.

Anyone know if that rule has changed?
 
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Not a fan of either but dake vs Taylor were good matches. Ramos vs Stieber were good too. All good for the sport I suppose.
 
Somewhat related, this reminds me of a match that I lost in high school due to the HS rule that if your shoulders are out of bounds, it doesn't count as back points. Lost out on at least 4 points of nearfall due to that rule and ended up losing the match by a point. The guy's entire body was in bounds except for head and shoulders.

Anyone know if that rule has changed?
That rule has changed now, where you can score and/ or pin with someone being out of the circle, but i want to say there is a weird/funky rule to it. not sure on that last part, been out of the high school scene for some time now.
 
That rule has changed now, where you can score and/ or pin with someone being out of the circle, but i want to say there is a weird/funky rule to it. not sure on that last part, been out of the high school scene for some time now.
You can pin a guy as long as a total 2 points of either wrestler are in bounds and no one is off the mat and on the gym floor.
 
I remember the anticipation of Schlatter vs Metcalf, at the Bigten tourney a few years back up in Mpls. I didn't think the match would happen, but Schlatter did wrestle (he had been injured and many figured he would injury default the Metcalf match, still making the NCAA's). It was a great match, that Metcalf won on a last second take down.
 
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JO vs Stieber changed the TD rule. Also, who deserves the credit for the neutral danger rule?

A.) Delgado
B.) Chris Perry
C.) Dean Heil
D.) All of the above
Exactly - basically that work the line dive under and grab an ankle style got so ridiculous that the rule was changed finally after fans were booing Delgado after he won. Was a great change.
 
Chris Perry and the body lock off the whistle from the top position. His matches against Evans where he would just kill clock were maddening.

Almost as bad as Tony Nelson running guys off the mat to secure an action packed 2-0 victory.

Thankfully Gwhiz and Snyder changed that weight class for the better
 
Chris Perry and the body lock off the whistle from the top position. His matches against Evans where he would just kill clock were maddening.

Almost as bad as Tony Nelson running guys off the mat to secure an action packed 2-0 victory.

Thankfully Gwhiz and Snyder changed that weight class for the better

He's training Fix well on how to stall on top. And constantly in the official's ear asking for stall calls on the bottom wrestler.
 
Matt Brown vs Wilps of Pitt in 2015. If they didnt insert the '5 count' stalling rule Wilps would have won

Brian Realbuto vs Ian Miller same year. Only folkstyle match i can think of when a guy lost but actually didnt. Crazy. It was wild but no excuse for not getting score right.
 
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Montell Marion's match with the guy from Michigan, where ref Tim didn't give the two I think may have helped initiate the touch rule when one wrestler gets behind the other and forces their hand to touch the mat.
 
Iowa State and Oklahoma helped change the mat sizes and stalling from the edge of the mat. For a decade both of these teams wrestled from the edge. There wasn't a mat big enough to hold these two teams.
 
You guys know me as an Easton, PA homer.

Killed us twice - well, at least rules would be change b/s Easton guys in the ncaa finals.

Bryan Snyder lost in two consecutive year on the old OT flip. then they changed it to multiple OT's. still sorta sucks, but that was the final straw.

The J.O. vs.s Steiber. The official literally apologized to us (Easton contingent) at the hotel that night. That summer they changed the rule book to make that a TD.

doesn't give us any more titles, but it helps our spirits just a tad.
 
Back in the 70's you could get more that one riding time point. Was that the max or could you get 3 or 4 and when did they change this rule? When Gable lost to Owings late in the match he thought he was down by 2 points on the scoreboard, but he had over 4 minutes of riding time and Owings had 1:33. Hence Gable would get 2 riding time points and the match would be tied, but he was down by 4 and there was really no way at that point he was coming back with practically no time on the clock and he was clearly more tired than Owings.
Did you know Larry Owings wrestled 158 all season and dropped down to 142 for NCAA's? He had pinned his way to the finals. So had Gable. Owings was at 130 his freshman year. When did they change this rule that you had to stay at the weight you qualify at? Hard to believe this was even a possibility. How did they know how many wrestlers would be in each bracket if you could bump?
 
I have been watching a lot of wrestling films and documentaries due to still being depressed over the whole covid situation. I love the Terry film, Cary Kolat story, Dan Dennis, the 30 for 30 on Dave Schultz and Foxcatcher. If anyone has some that they have really enjoyed please post.

What is interesting from being a former wrestler and a fan for a long time is to think about how matches might have been different if the rules were the way there were today. Whether it was freestyle, folk, greco, whatever.

A few that stick out to me are the Jesse Delgado rule which we now see danger counts and takedowns awarded when it used to just be a stalemate most of the time. Great rule change.

Dan Dennis in his finals match against Ness. Ness took injury time that appeared to be a great Minnesota breather and we all know how this one ended. Now when a wrestler takes injury time the opponent gets his choice. Another great rule change.

His choice of what?
 
Back in the 70's you could get more that one riding time point. Was that the max or could you get 3 or 4 and when did they change this rule? When Gable lost to Owings late in the match he thought he was down by 2 points on the scoreboard, but he had over 4 minutes of riding time and Owings had 1:33. Hence Gable would get 2 riding time points and the match would be tied, but he was down by 4 and there was really no way at that point he was coming back with practically no time on the clock and he was clearly more tired than Owings.
Did you know Larry Owings wrestled 158 all season and dropped down to 142 for NCAA's? He had pinned his way to the finals. So had Gable. Owings was at 130 his freshman year. When did they change this rule that you had to stay at the weight you qualify at? Hard to believe this was even a possibility. How did they know how many wrestlers would be in each bracket if you could bump?
Back then, didn't when the rule changed, if you had 2 minutes of RT you got two points. I believe 2 was the max but im not entirely sure.
Gable rode Owings very dominantly and if he had rode smarter at the end, not going for the instintctive armbar, he likely would have rode out and won.
I heard Larry even wrestled some at 167. Now he did wrestle alot at 150 as his only loss was too Mike Grant of OU. Same guy Gable beat 9-4. Unsure when the weight cut moving classes rule changed.
Dan thought he was going too win easily which he should have really, but didn't get a good warmup having too do media interviews and didn't think about Owings alot before NCAA's despite they had wrestled once in a freestyle tournament before.

All of this, plus the contreversial 2 point near fall 'predicament' call and the rumour from a bitter fan I've heard of Gable having the Flu, gives Gable a chance too make excuses but from all I've heard he doesn't and this loss maybe was a helpful thing in his training and coaching career.
 
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How did they know how many wrestlers would be in each bracket if you could bump?

They didn't. Before 1971, NCAAs were damn near an open tournament -- there was no qualifying or allocations involved. Guys didn't even have to wrestle at their conference tournament to wrestle at NCAAs.
 
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The title Says "matches that changed the sport". As mentioned previously, the Owings/Gable match had a major impact. Would Gable have become the greatest coach in history without that loss? I don't know.

The Dick Hauser and Lowell Lange NCAA wins changed American wrestling in two ways. They were the first two true freshmen national champs and their wins helped Cornell College move the national title out of Oklahoma. That win in 1947 and the ISTC championship in 1950 established Iowa as a collegiate power state.

Gardner over Karelin was a tectonic shift.
 
His choice of what?
Not sure what you are referring to probably the injury time? Yes if a wrestler takes injury time as you probably know his opponent gets his choice of starting position when they come out of injury time. If Dan Dennis would have had that choice, he wins the title. Or if he just stays away from Ness or bails on a TD he wins the title.
 
Back then, didn't when the rule changed, if you had 2 minutes of RT you got two points. I believe 2 was the max but im not entirely sure.
Gable rode Owings very dominantly and if he had rode smarter at the end, not going for the instintctive armbar, he likely would have rode out and won.
I heard Larry even wrestled some at 167. Now he did wrestle alot at 150 as his only loss was too Mike Grant of OU. Same guy Gable beat 9-4. Unsure when the weight cut moving classes rule changed.
Dan thought he was going too win easily which he should have really, but didn't get a good warmup having too do media interviews and didn't think about Owings alot before NCAA's despite they had wrestled once in a freestyle tournament before.

All of this, plus the contreversial 2 point near fall 'predicament' call and the rumour from a bitter fan I've heard of Gable having the Flu, gives Gable a chance too make excuses but from all I've heard he doesn't and this loss maybe was a helpful thing in his training and coaching career.
That's what I was thinking too. A max of 2 riding time points. Thanks for your response. I agree that Gable did not look like himself at the end of that match and you can bet that he became the wrestler/coach he was because of this loss.
 
They didn't. Before 1971, NCAAs were damn near an open tournament -- there was no qualifying or allocations involved. Guys didn't even have to wrestle at their conference tournament to wrestle at NCAAs.
Thanks for the clarification Chip
 
Not sure what you are referring to probably the injury time? Yes if a wrestler takes injury time as you probably know his opponent gets his choice of starting position when they come out of injury time. If Dan Dennis would have had that choice, he wins the title. Or if he just stays away from Ness or bails on a TD he wins the title.

Dennis lost 6-4. While the rule change would have changed the dynamics of the match, to simply say Dennis would have won is a bit presumptive. If that match were wrestled under today’s rules it would be completely different. Remember, Dennis spent 13 seconds on his back In the first period trying not to get pinned that with today’s rules would have been a 6-0 Ness lead instead of 0-0.
 
Dennis lost 6-4. While the rule change would have changed the dynamics of the match, to simply say Dennis would have won is a bit presumptive. If that match were wrestled under today’s rules it would be completely different. Remember, Dennis spent 13 seconds on his back In the first period trying not to get pinned that with today’s rules would have been a 6-0 Ness lead instead of 0-0.

On your back in the first period for 13 seconds and the score was 0-0. How does that happen? Huh????
 
Dennis lost 6-4. While the rule change would have changed the dynamics of the match, to simply say Dennis would have won is a bit presumptive. If that match were wrestled under today’s rules it would be completely different. Remember, Dennis spent 13 seconds on his back In the first period trying not to get pinned that with today’s rules would have been a 6-0 Ness lead instead of 0-0.
Would he have let himself be in that position with today's rules?
 
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Gardner over Karelin was a tectonic shift.

If the clinch rule had not been incorporated, I don't think Rulon wins. I don't think K was really comfortable with the position, and Gardner being so massive in the chest helped him. Either way, the toss of a coin giving the option of the hold and how ref's viewed "ready" almost killed the style in my opinion.
 
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Would he have let himself be in that position with today's rules?
Don't know. The same thing could be said about Ness taking injury TO with 60 seconds remaining. It was not uncommon for folks to take an injury TO for a quick break prior to the rule changing. My point was you really cannot assume a different outcome by applying today's rules. Guys wrestle to the rules that are in place at time.
 
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If the clinch rule had not been incorporated, I don't think Rulon wins. I don't think K was really comfortable with the position, and Gardner being so massive in the chest helped him. Either way, the toss of a coin giving the option of the hold and how ref's viewed "ready" almost killed the style in my opinion.

I agree completely.
 
Dennis lost 6-4. While the rule change would have changed the dynamics of the match, to simply say Dennis would have won is a bit presumptive. If that match were wrestled under today’s rules it would be completely different. Remember, Dennis spent 13 seconds on his back In the first period trying not to get pinned that with today’s rules would have been a 6-0 Ness lead instead of 0-0.
Dennis lost 6-4. While the rule change would have changed the dynamics of the match, to simply say Dennis would have won is a bit presumptive. If that match were wrestled under today’s rules it would be completely different. Remember, Dennis spent 13 seconds on his back In the first period trying not to get pinned that with today’s rules would have been a 6-0 Ness lead instead of 0-0.
Dennis gets his choice and more than likely takes bottom with 13 seconds left and a 2 point lead and he doesn't win? Well we can agree to disagree and Tom Brands commented that he wins if the rule was changed. He even went as far as to say they call the injury time rule change the Minnesota rule. You are correct with today's rules Dennis would have gotten danger counts in the first period, but my guess is he uses a different tactic to defend that TD right there. Having said that if Ness doesn't take that breather his lungs were not going to allow him to wrestle hard to get that 4 point move at the end.
 
Dennis gets his choice and more than likely takes bottom with 13 seconds left and a 2 point lead and he doesn't win? Well we can agree to disagree and Tom Brands commented that he wins if the rule was changed. He even went as far as to say they call the injury time rule change the Minnesota rule. You are correct with today's rules Dennis would have gotten danger counts in the first period, but my guess is he uses a different tactic to defend that TD right there. Having said that if Ness doesn't take that breather his lungs were not going to allow him to wrestle hard to get that 4 point move at the end.
You can clearly see he took a knee to the head right before that.
 
You can clearly see he took a knee to the head right before that.
What does that mean? Is that illegal? Ref stopped the match when Ness put his finger up to stop it. We have all seen kids go black from a knee to the head and that was not the case here. Knees to the head are part of wrestling and after re-watching it I disagree with you. His head may have hit Dan's knee, but it was self inflicted. Ness dove head first into the knee. Looks like his head goes straight into the mat after that. He was clearly hurt, but still conscious and alert.
 
When Damion Hahn was a high school freshman in 1996, he faced Derex Johnson in the NJ Region 6 final. Derex was a senior and already 3X NJ State Place winner from a neighboring town, and his older brother, Rob, was a 2X NJ State Champion. Damion's father, Miles, ran one of the earlier wrestling clubs in NJ; Team Hammer. My son trained at Hammer, and it was evident there was bad blood between the Hahn and Johnson families.
The region final match was electric, more like a charged up boxing match, with the crowd vocally loud and split between the two camps. Anyhow, Damion was dominant from neutral and kept getting in on Derex's legs, but every time he tried to lift his legs and go back door, Derex kept scissoring Damion's head, until stalemate was called. Derex won a close decision, and Damion redeemed the following week with a convincing victory at the State Tournament. Whether causative or coincidental, the following year the rule emerged when you could no longer scissor the head in defense of a leg attack.
 
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Heil is the one for me who motivated the rule change the most. Delgado may have started the process, but Heil really cemented it in the peoples mind that a change needed to be made. IMHO
That could certainly be the case, but for me it will forever be The Jesse Delgado Rule.
 
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