ADVERTISEMENT

Maurice Flemming

I agree he is not viable because he was unfairly tossed aside. but the point being they were not brought up in 21 years because they were not invented yet out of thin air- until 2020

Seems unlikely all of these issues were made up out of thin air. But I'm sure you have a conspiracy theory all cooked up.
 
I remember many players who had dreds during their time at Iowa A. Hodge G.Lewis M. Paschel
D. Young A. Allen

I would be very interested to see how many of the players who are voicing their concerns & gripes about the program come from 2 parent households. I think that would tell you a lot more about what's going on.

I think there is definitely a connection. Young men that have a father in their life are often much less sensitive and emotional, in my experience.
Even today, you see some of the fathers of some of the current players supporting the program and the hard-ass approach that our coaches seemed to take with players.
Woman are typically (not always) much more sensitive and highly emotional.
Mothers and Fathers are both essential, and both play a part in developing young men and women.
 
I think the sour grapes cases are mostly what's going to Green. I think guys like Desmond King, Jordan Lomax, James Daniels, Mike Daniels, etc., have tweeted things and given interviews, but they've also communicated with KF and other coaches. Mike Daniels is chairing the committee to look into change in the program. Jordan Lomax was a guy KF brought in a couple years ago after having player retention issues. Those guys have said and done enough that they're credible to me. That a few other guys have sour grapes and go to Green doesn't undercut their position in my view.

i think that is fair but I also think if you are going to stick your neck out with criticism having never, ever been in the role of coach and running a big time program, then your recommendations better be spot on and work. I expect then we will be better, not worse. If we are worse, then who takes the fall? How can you blame the HC when it was your recommendation for change when your program just came off the best 5 year run, put a lot of guys in the NFL and had few off the field problems.
 
Definitely not allowed at anytime throughout Kirk's tenure at Iowa.
2002
669d9cc6-9842-4835-9885-02cc70883c67-dmrdc5-5c0r6s50l5wjfivln6a_original.jpg


2006
AR-141029599.jpg&MaxH=500&MaxW=900


2010
d9d46204-ea7b-47f6-af2f-40f1123cbd63-USATSI_5038586.jpg


Not to mention your modern pictures.

Plus, Kirk personally hates everyone with dreads and can't stand being around them.
aHR0cHM6Ly9zdG9yYWdlLmdvb2dsZWFwaXMuY29tL2hhd2tleWVzcG9ydHMtY29tLzIwMjAvMDQvNTNlYTJjNDAtMTcwODE4cHJhY3RpY2UwMDExLmpwZw.png
Thanks Herky for posting those pics of some of Iowa's all time great players under KF, dread wearing an all. Kind of shoots a hole in that argument doesn't it? I can tell you that KF is pretty fond of some of those guys especially Bob......
 
  • Like
Reactions: Herkyhawk247
i think that is fair but I also think if you are going to stick your neck out with criticism having never, ever been in the role of coach and running a big time program, then your recommendations better be spot on and work. I expect then we will be better, not worse. If we are worse, then who takes the fall? How can you blame the HC when it was your recommendation for change when your program just came off the best 5 year run, put a lot of guys in the NFL and had few off the field problems.

Doyle is very good as an S&C coach when it comes to putting muscle guys and maximizing physical gifts, but he's not the only person in the country who is good at that. It will be important to find a good replacement, but the interim guy has worked with Doyle for 15 years, so I assume we're largely continuing on with status quo mixed with a better motivational system. There seem to be a lot of good S&C guys out there, some of whom have Iowa ties.
 
I find it interesting that the "Patriot Way" is considered a model for success. The way to be a champion. It includes unrelenting expectations of discipline and focus on doing things a certain way. Rules and standards for behavior are set and to be followed. No exceptions. But with Iowa, it's called "white culture." I am going to say this again, being insensitive, brutally blunt, and maybe even being a dick is not racist. Criticize all you want for that, leave the racism alone. If certain people can't handle it, including many "white kids", then this program is not for them. So be it.
 
I haven’t seen anything very damning against Doyle. Any examples of damning comments by credible people? Not trolling, I just haven’t seen anything that is more than “insensitive”.

And damming is a very subjective word. What looks like abuse from one viewpoint can look like
discipline from another.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hawkifann
Doyle is very good as an S&C coach when it comes to putting muscle guys and maximizing physical gifts, but he's not the only person in the country who is good at that.
I see this brought up quite a bit. Just wanted to point out that after speaking with a couple people formerly in the program I know, as well as listening to former players on things like the Washed Up Walkons podcast, it's pretty clear Doyle's role in the program is a lot more than putting muscle on players. He handled so many different things other than lifting weights that the players do in the program.

Probably not the best way to put it in light of recent accusations, but he set the "culture" at Iowa. From the S&C stuff, to the books they read, to a ton of other small stuff. He was the one leading it, and looking back at it now, it's clear that many players, mainly black players, had issues with it. But he did much more than just having them lift weights. That's why he was the top paid S&C coach in the country, mainly due to the other things he was responsible for. Just wanted to make sure that is clear for everyone, not just you specifically.
 
I would agree with this and I don't think kf and barta should have bowed to the pressure and booted doyle. he seemed to be good.

What is amazing is all you Hawk "fans" are throwing Kirk Ferentz and Gary Barta under the bus...in essence saying .... They were wrong in their decision to terminate Doyle .... They were too weak to stand up to the "false" charges of many former and present players. You've had fun belittling, demeaning and piling on Wadley, DJK, Flemming and others all over these boards. Keyboard bullies.

Ferentz and Barta know what came out of interviews with many black and white players. They are more committed to running a good program than any of us tapping away on our laptops. They decided Doyle needed to go. I buy their good sense and expertise. Too bad many of you don't have confidence in your head coach and AD.
 
These young men are going to struggle if they ever get in a management position reporting to the top of a company. Some of this "harassment" is a cake walk compared to working for the president/director of sales of a big company.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Herkyhawk247
I find it interesting that the "Patriot Way" is considered a model for success. The way to be a champion. It includes unrelenting expectations of discipline and focus on doing things a certain way. Rules and standards for behavior are set and to be followed. No exceptions. But with Iowa, it's called "white culture." I am going to say this again, being insensitive, brutally blunt, and maybe even being a dick is not racist. Criticize all you want for that, leave the racism alone. If certain people can't handle it, including many "white kids", then this program is not for them. So be it.

One of the things that came out from hearing Lomax and Daniels was that those things weren't really made clear in the way that they're experienced. Perception is reality to a pretty significant extent. If you're consistently not keeping guys in the program, it's ultimately a you problem, not a them problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hawkbirch
Doyle is very good as an S&C coach when it comes to putting muscle guys and maximizing physical gifts, but he's not the only person in the country who is good at that. It will be important to find a good replacement, but the interim guy has worked with Doyle for 15 y. ears, so I assume we're largely continuing on with status quo mixed with a better motivational systm. There seem to be a lot of good S&C guys out there, some of whom have Iowa ties.

That's the big question. The knowledge is
probably fairly widely available but the more important part of the equation is the method. That was the key for Doyle. There may be other methods that are equally effective, but they are few and far between. Just like other aspects of coaching----they all have access to the same knowledge, but it's how they implement that knowledge that is the difference maker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hawkifann
Another incredibly weak story..... It used to be that lengthy war deployments, killing other men, and watching your buddies get killed gave you PTSD......the horrors of war. Now, apparently Iowa football is causing it by being insensitive and enforcing rules related to hair, clothing, eating, etc.

If he got PTSD from getting your hair cut, you have a lot bigger problems than Iowa football. This story is just made up.
 
I see this brought up quite a bit. Just wanted to point out that after speaking with a couple people formerly in the program I know, as well as listening to former players on things like the Washed Up Walkons podcast, it's pretty clear Doyle's role in the program is a lot more than putting muscle on players. He handled so many different things other than lifting weights that the players do in the program.

Probably not the best way to put it in light of recent accusations, but he set the "culture" at Iowa. From the S&C stuff, to the books they read, to a ton of other small stuff. He was the one leading it, and looking back at it now, it's clear that many players, mainly black players, had issues with it. But he did much more than just having them lift weights. That's why he was the top paid S&C coach in the country, mainly due to the other things he was responsible for. Just wanted to make sure that is clear for everyone, not just you specifically.

That's a great distinction and you're right.

I don't know how all this evolved, but it sure seems to me that Doyle started, had great success and probably hasn't changed much over 20 years. He had a ton of power in KF's program, which made him virtually untouchable. Kids either had no issue with his style, ate it and got through or left the program. Over time, it sure seems like there wasn't much of a feedback loop for whatever reason and it persisted and Doyle's sense of power likely grew. Now we'll see if KF can re-establish a new style of relationship with the S&C coach and set a different tone within the program.
 
That's a great distinction and you're right.

I don't know how all this evolved, but it sure seems to me that Doyle started, had great success and probably hasn't changed much over 20 years. He had a ton of power in KF's program, which made him virtually untouchable. Kids either had no issue with his style, ate it and got through or left the program. Over time, it sure seems like there wasn't much of a feedback loop for whatever reason and it persisted and Doyle's sense of power likely grew. Now we'll see if KF can re-establish a new style of relationship with the S&C coach and set a different tone within the program.
Well put.
 
One of the things that came out from hearing Lomax and Daniels was that those things weren't really made clear in the way that they're experienced. Perception is reality to a pretty significant extent. If you're consistently not keeping guys in the program, it's ultimately a you problem, not a them problem.
Tell the Patriots that - maybe it's a them problem for not being able to handle the expectations? It's not like Iowa has been a bottom feeder program.
 
Tell the Patriots that - maybe it's a them problem for not being able to handle the expectations? It's not like Iowa has been a bottom feeder program.

There are guys who don't fit with the Patriots as well. There's more than one way to win.

The bottom line is that Iowa is a good program that typically has a relatively small margin for error. They get talent and develop some elite players, but depth is critical. It's not the only factor, but the period of time Ferentz was looking at when he brought Lomax back to look into the retention problem contains an awful lot of losses where lack of depth certainly played a role - if a slightly modified approach would have kept some extra players in the program, maybe they'd have been better.

Some of the things brought up are easy changes - minimize racial jokes and the like, give players more say in music being played, allowing earrings, etc. In fact, some of that stuff has already changed. The end of the day, the workouts are still going to be brutal and Iowa should continue to push and strive for excellence......but Iowa still wants to bring guys in and keep them in the program for as long as possible. Attrition hurts.
 
There are guys who don't fit with the Patriots as well. There's more than one way to win.

The bottom line is that Iowa is a good program that typically has a relatively small margin for error. They get talent and develop some elite players, but depth is critical. It's not the only factor, but the period of time Ferentz was looking at when he brought Lomax back to look into the retention problem contains an awful lot of losses where lack of depth certainly played a role - if a slightly modified approach would have kept some extra players in the program, maybe they'd have been better.

Some of the things brought up are easy changes - minimize racial jokes and the like, give players more say in music being played, allowing earrings, etc. In fact, some of that stuff has already changed. The end of the day, the workouts are still going to be brutal and Iowa should continue to push and strive for excellence......but Iowa still wants to bring guys in and keep them in the program for as long as possible. Attrition hurts.

I see it a little differently. For full disclosure, I've never been a KF supporter on a number of specific football issues. But I am on this one. I hope he changes little or nothing with demands and behavioral requirements.

The general lack of success after leaving Iowa tells us that the attrition may have been addition by subtraction. Depth doesn't compensate for poisosous apples.

Rather than reduce expectations, a couple of areas that could be examined:
1) an even deeper vetting of recruits
2) more time and attention to salvaging those
falling short (face to face explanations,
motivation, .....)There have been indications
in the past of ego preventing effective
personnel management.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChiPackHawk
There are guys who don't fit with the Patriots as well. There's more than one way to win.

The bottom line is that Iowa is a good program that typically has a relatively small margin for error. They get talent and develop some elite players, but depth is critical. It's not the only factor, but the period of time Ferentz was looking at when he brought Lomax back to look into the retention problem contains an awful lot of losses where lack of depth certainly played a role - if a slightly modified approach would have kept some extra players in the program, maybe they'd have been better.

Some of the things brought up are easy changes - minimize racial jokes and the like, give players more say in music being played, allowing earrings, etc. In fact, some of that stuff has already changed. The end of the day, the workouts are still going to be brutal and Iowa should continue to push and strive for excellence......but Iowa still wants to bring guys in and keep them in the program for as long as possible. Attrition hurts.
 
If you think for one second wearing earnings and listening to rap/hip hop is limited to the “black culture” you really have not been around today’s youth.
 
I see it a little differently. For full disclosure, I've never been a KF supporter on a number of specific football issues. But I am on this one. I hope he changes little or nothing with demands and behavioral requirements.

The general lack of success after leaving Iowa tells us that the attrition may have been addition by subtraction. Depth doesn't compensate for poisosous apples.

Rather than reduce expectations, a couple of areas that could be examined:
1) an even deeper vetting of recruits
2) more time and attention to salvaging those
falling short (face to face explanations,
motivation, .....)There have been indications
in the past of ego preventing effective
personnel management.

So when guys like James Daniels and Mike Daniels and others point out problems and some of those guys come back to work behind the scenes, you should change nothing?

I trust KF to get this done. Lifted Twitter ban and let Doyle go, those are good moves. I'm sure the weight room will remain a difficult place.
 
If you think for one second wearing earnings and listening to rap/hip hop is limited to the “black culture” you really have not been around today’s youth.

Of course it's not. Just pointing out examples that have been called out.
 
But this is exactly why I say it’s not a race or racism issue. That Is what is being claimed by some and supposedly the root of the problem. It’s just not.

It may not be. Maybe it's a relating to today's kids thing. Either way, it seems there was some clear toxicity in the program and now they're taking steps to get that out.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: millah_22
If he got PTSD from getting your hair cut, you have a lot bigger problems than Iowa football. This story is just made up.

I'm getting PTSD from listening to some of the crap from some of these athletes that had their "manhood" challenged. Doesn't mean some of the complaints aren't valid, but some of this stuff is ridiculous. Absolutely root out and put an end to any and all racism in the program because there's no place for that anywhere. But if everything is racism, nothing is racism!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Herkyhawk247
Can anyone on this board recommend a good lawyer? When I was in grade school back in the 50's I had teacher hit and swat me and then the school principle would have a BIG paddle to swat me. I now have PTSD.
Also while in the Army in basic training the drill sergeant would scream at me every day, spit in my face, make me run extra laps, call me a fat ass and it never ended. Now I really have low esteem and PTSD. So I think I have a great case to sue all these people in my life. And I couldn't drop out of the Army and go to another line of work for three years. I'm a total wreck. Please, someone help me.
 
To sum up the article for most of it he rips on Doyle. At the end Fleming said he tried to transfer 3x. On his final attempt where he succeeded he said during his meeting with KF he had this quote of what Ferentz said to him

"I need him in life, and I'll never be anything without him, and that I was truly making a huge mistake."

Flemming also claimed he developed PTSD from the incidents that took place under KF and Doyle's leadership....

does anyone really believe Kirk said that, I can’t get over how simple minded you have to be to make up such an obviously contrived statement. I’m so sick of this shit. Everyone trying to get their “loot” while the line is weak. I hope Iowa doesnt fold to these fools
 
does anyone really believe Kirk said that, I can’t get over how simple minded you have to be to make up such an obviously contrived statement. I’m so sick of this shit. Everyone trying to get their “loot” while the line is weak. I hope Iowa doesnt fold to these fools
no but we believe Robert t green said that
 
Fleming may (probably was) have gotten teased for his hair and dreadlocks.

BIG. F**KING. DEAL.

These guys are reaching for whatever they possibly can to transform it into an explosive ordeal.

This game of finger-pointing is beyond out of control. I'm in disbelief, honestly..
everything's racist at the moment; it's unbelievable

the end game is clear: they want to be paid significantly for their "pain and suffering."
 
Is Flemmings twitter disabled??? I had trouble finding it when I was looking for what he said,
 
So when guys like James Daniels and Mike Daniels and others point out problems and some of those guys come back to work behind the scenes, you should change nothing?

I trust KF to get this done. Lifted Twitter ban and let Doyle go, those are good moves. I'm sure the weight room will remain a difficult place.

I generally have agreed on all your views.

However, as it relates to Kirk here, I too think he'll make every effort to make significant changes for the better, but I will not let him off the hook that he screwed up here big time and has accountability in these events. He either a) let Doyle continue with the culture that existed because that's where the biggest problem was b) if Kirk was unaware of Doyle's culture after 21 years, then shame on Kirk. That's just completely dropping the ball- and that's being kind.

One last thing: I still have this hunch we are going to hear from Chris Doyle before all is said and done. Once the investigation is concluded, I think he speaks out one way or another to defend himself. He's got the ego that he's not going to allow himself to be viewed as the most significant, or only, problem here. I found it odd he gave no thanks to Kirk in his resignation statement. I'm sensing he's just very pissed about all this.
 
I generally have agreed on all your views.

However, as it relates to Kirk here, I too think he'll make every effort to make significant changes for the better, but I will not let him off the hook that he screwed up here big time by either a) letting Doyle continue with the culture that existed because that's where the biggest problem was b) if Kirk was unaware of Doyle's culture after 21 years, then shame on Kirk. That's just completely dropping the ball- and that's being kind.

One last thing: I still have this hunch we are going to hear from Chris Doyle before all is said and done. Once the investigation is concluded, I think he speaks out one way or another to defend himself. He's got the ego that he's not going to allow himself to be viewed as the most significant, or only, problem here. I found it odd he gave no thanks to Kirk in his resignation statement. I'm sensing he's just very pissed about all this.

I don't disagree with this. I don't mean to hold Kirk harmless, he clearly just deferred a huge chunk of his program to Doyle and let it go. He should have been more engaged with players and how they were doing in the program. From the anecdotal stories that have come out, it's pretty clear that if there was a dispute and he was hearing that a kid was a problem from Doyle, he just took Doyle's word as the gospel. I manage people and some of those people manage people and that's not a great habit to fall into. Hopefully that stuff changes going forward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fair Child
I don't disagree with this. I don't mean to hold Kirk harmless, he clearly just deferred a huge chunk of his program to Doyle and let it go. He should have been more engaged with players and how they were doing in the program. From the anecdotal stories that have come out, it's pretty clear that if there was a dispute and he was hearing that a kid was a problem from Doyle, he just took Doyle's word as the gospel. I manage people and some of those people manage people and that's not a great habit to fall into. Hopefully that stuff changes going forward.

Thanks for your thoughts and clarity. I too manage managers that manage others and communication and exposure is just so essential. At a minimum, there was a blind spot here by Kirk-- I think he basically admitted that. It's not just that Kirk relied on Doyle likely for feedback on the kids, but he needs to understand the culture that was in that room. I fired one of my District Manager's a few months back and it was essentially for not running a healthy team environment. On the surface sales performance of the team had declined, but when unrooting the "why", my suspicions were realized unfortunately. Even the CEO of a program needs to have a sense of how all elements are working and what the general feel is.

I agree that going forward Kirk will do far better in this area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hawkifann
Part of the Iowa "culture" is what changes walkons, 2 and 3 star athletes into D1 college and NFL football players. It instills the discipline and work ethic necessary to reach those heights. The ones complaining about insensitivity and "not being allowed to express themselves", at least the ones that didn't wash out, probably don't realize it was that culture that allowed them to accomplish what they have. I truly don't believe there is a racist "culture" at Iowa. If there is, there is nobody I can think of that believes it doesn't need to change immediately. But if the Iowa culture is forced to change to a namby pamby program that is afraid to hurt anybody's feelings or "threaten their manhood", we'll cease being a developmental program and can enjoy being cellar dwellers.
 
Part of the Iowa "culture" is what changes walkons, 2 and 3 star athletes into D1 college and NFL football players. It instills the discipline and work ethic necessary to reach those heights. The ones complaining about insensitivity and "not being allowed to express themselves", at least the ones that didn't wash out, probably don't realize it was that culture that allowed them to accomplish what they have. I truly don't believe there is a racist "culture" at Iowa. If there is, there is nobody I can think of that believes it doesn't need to change immediately. But if the Iowa culture is forced to change to a namby pamby program that is afraid to hurt anybody's feelings or "threaten their manhood", we'll cease being a developmental program and can enjoy being cellar dwellers.

Agree 100% with you. I have also so much appreciated what Iowa has had to do to be strong in football. I am an old school guy and think Ferentz certainly is.

Sadly though, the players now have more power than they've ever had and having a bigger stage than ever to be heard. Like it or not, the "old school military style" camp is forever going to be changed; and coaches either adjust or they are gone. It's simply a reality and a big part of me is very sad about that.
 
ADVERTISEMENT