Michigan Coach Jim Harbaugh Speaks at Anti-Abortion Event

KFSuperStar

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That might be one of the most ridiculous hypotheticals I’ve ever read. Let’s just stick to the abortion topic shall we?

If for no other reason than I have zero idea how state laws typically cover stuff like this.
You’re making the law.

Should it be owi or manslaughter?

Your believe is life begins if the fetus can survive outside the womb. Is that how your law would read?
 

bdcolt45er

HR All-American
Jun 11, 2010
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Is this statement a medical definition that is generally accepted by global medical experts? Or, is it an opinion?

I am not saying you are right or wrong, rather just point out how complicated this conversation can be when the crux of the matter lacks definition.

Additionally, as each year passes, neo-natal care improves and it is amazing what can be done for < 20 weeks fetus now. Not that it applies in all cases, but is fascinating how viability in early 2nd trimester is possible.
I would say 23 weeks seems to be our threshold right now. We get a lot of patients in our vent program that are 23 weekers. I can't recall any right now less than that. These are patients that require long term tracheostomy and mechanical ventilation. So they are viable with extraordinary intervention.
 

sober_teacher

HR Legend
Mar 26, 2007
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You’re making the law.

Should it be owi or manslaughter?

Your believe is life begins if the fetus can survive outside the womb. Is that how your law would read?
As someone else said, your example involves an accident vs a mothers right to choose.
not playing this game with you.
 
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BelemNole

HR Legend
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I would be happy with codified national law that allows abortion for any reason up to 15 weeks gestation but only in cases of rape and incest or if the mother’s life is in jeopardy or the fetus has no medical chance at survival after the 15 week mark.

And make “Plan B” and other forms of birth control as easily available as possible.

Deal?
Why 15 weeks?
 
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BelemNole

HR Legend
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I'm not saying 20. I'm just pointing out the current statistics, and asking the question about what a compromise could be.

Just as I replied to you in another thread earlier this month, I don't know when a fetus becomes a baby. I do know it's some time before 30 weeks, and many people say 24 weeks.

For conversation's sake, if a fetus does become consistently viable earlier and earlier, wouldn't that mean they deserve protection earlier as well?

Do you advocate abortion being legal at any point until birth?
Not really, but I see the day when someone can grow a fertilized embryo outside a human womb altogether and then the argument goes back to zero weeks, doesn't it?
I don't believe that women are gestation machines without control and I don't think a bunch of old men should be making up the laws that govern their bodies.
 

KFsdisciple

HR Legend
Jul 3, 2003
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The part of the rights of the unborn argument to me that I can’t get past, is giving rights to the fetus prior to it being viable outside the womb.
A baby isn’t really viable until it’s about 10 years old. What 4 year old do you know can provide for itself, cloth itself, cook for itself? Viability outside the womb is a rough argument.
 
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LuciousBDragon

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Why is it acceptable for you to force someone to proceed with an unwanted pregnancy? You are making the choice for them.
Many pro-life people would say this answer is because it is murder. You are choosing to terminate a life against its consent. That is what murder is. And we all can agree that it is acceptable for humans to create enforceable laws that say you cannot murder another person.

It all comes down to when we think life begins and no progress will be made until the general population begins to agree on that singular question.

Personally, if it were up to me, I would say the measure of the first electrical activity in the developing brain which usually happens around week 6. Neurons start firing signaling communication with each other and this is a measurable event independent of the mother.
 

TJ8869

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Why 15 weeks?
Serious answer is that around the time the SCOTUS overturned Roe, I recall seeing at least one survey that showed a majority of Americans supported a 15-week ban.

Personally I prefer once a functional brain and nervous system as well as a functional heart and circulatory system have formed, which is around 12 weeks. It’s obviously not viable yet but scientifically it’s pretty difficult to deny that it’s a human life and not merely a lump of cells.

But I’d be okay with 15 weeks.
 

KFSuperStar

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As someone else said, your example involves an accident vs a mothers right to choose.
not playing this game with you.
Someone stabs a lady that’s 20 weeks pregnant. She survives but the baby dies. It’s no accident. You stated it’s not a life unless it can survive outside the womb on its own.

Charge the guy attempted murder or murder and attempted murder?
 

Aardvark86

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Jan 23, 2018
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If I was a college football coach, I'd probably keep my thoughts to myself on topics not related to football.
That could be said about a lot of professions, including ones where the core job description entails pretending well enough to get an audience to willingly suspend disbelief.
 
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BelemNole

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Serious answer is that around the time the SCOTUS overturned Roe, I recall seeing at least one survey that showed a majority of Americans supported a 15-week ban.

Personally I prefer once a functional brain and nervous system as well as a functional heart and circulatory system have formed, which is around 12 weeks. It’s obviously not viable yet but scientifically it’s pretty difficult to deny that it’s a human life and not merely a lump of cells.

But I’d be okay with 15 weeks.
Well, the SCOTUS has no basis in anything other than brute politics at this point.
And your 12 weeks is gestation, not 'pregnancy' which is measured differently as has been pointed out several times.
I don't think it makes any sense to demand that the cut off is before the fetus is viable.
 

TJ8869

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Well, the SCOTUS has no basis in anything other than brute politics at this point.
My proposal is supported by a majority of Americans. Are we a democracy or are we not?
And your 12 weeks is gestation, not 'pregnancy' which is measured differently as has been pointed out several times.
I very specifically referenced gestational age, which is measured from the first day of the birthing parent’s last menstrual cycle and is the standard used by a vast majority of ob/gyns in this country.
I don't think it makes any sense to demand that the cut off is before the fetus is viable.
That’s awesome. You accused “anti-abortion people” of being unwilling to compromise. And it turns out you’re unwilling to compromise.
 

BelemNole

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My proposal is supported by a majority of Americans. Are we a democracy or are we not?

I very specifically referenced gestational age, which is measured from the first day of the birthing parent’s last menstrual cycle and is the standard used by a vast majority of ob/gyns in this country.

That’s awesome. You accused “anti-abortion people” of being unwilling to compromise. And it turns out you’re unwilling to compromise.
Are we a democracy now, I keep get told we're not? The majority of Americans want abortion legal in the US.

And where was I not willing to compromise? We were just arguing about the cut-off. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me any more unwilling than you you twit.
 

TJ8869

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Are we a democracy now, I keep get told we're not? The majority of Americans want abortion legal in the US.
The majority of Americans support making it legal for 15 weeks.
And where was I not willing to compromise? We were just arguing about the cut-off. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me any more unwilling than you you twit.
I guess they didn’t teach you the definition of compromise at FSU.

You stated that nothing less than viability is acceptable to you. That was the standard under Roe v Wade. A compromise would be somewhere between no legal abortion and what we had up until a few weeks ago.

Demanding that we go back to how things were is not a compromise, you twit.
 

BelemNole

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The majority of Americans support making it legal for 15 weeks.

I guess they didn’t teach you the definition of compromise at FSU.

You stated that nothing less than viability is acceptable to you. That was the standard under Roe v Wade. A compromise would be somewhere between no legal abortion and what we had up until a few weeks ago.

Demanding that we go back to how things were is not a compromise, you twit.
A compromise is somewhere between what we had before the SCOTUS took a shit on women and what insane places like Idaho has.
The fact that I'm discussing weeks with you is a compromise. Viability is ALREADY a compromise. You're such a twit that you can't see that.
 

TJ8869

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A compromise is somewhere between what we had before the SCOTUS took a shit on women and what insane places like Idaho has.
The fact that I'm discussing weeks with you is a compromise. Viability is ALREADY a compromise. You're such a twit that you can't see that.
Viability is what we had before the SCOTUS overturned Roe. A compromise would be somewhere between what we had under Roe and what we have now in places like Idaho without Roe.

Have you recently suffered a serious fall or a blow to the head?
 

BelemNole

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Viability is what we had before the SCOTUS overturned Roe. A compromise would be somewhere between what we had under Roe and what we have now in places like Idaho without Roe.

Have you recently suffered a serious fall or a blow to the head?
So we didn't have third trimester abortions? You mean all this was over nothing?

You sound like the Russians - invade and then demand a compromise.
 

TJ8869

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So we didn't have third trimester abortions? You mean all this was over nothing?

You sound like the Russians - invade and then demand a compromise.
Every time anyone mentioned third trimester abortions prior to the recent SCOTUS ruling it was pointed out that third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare and are almost never utilized unless the mother’s life is in danger. My proposal allows for late term abortions when the mother is in danger.

You’re trying to negotiate with something I’ve already granted you.
 

BelemNole

HR Legend
Mar 29, 2002
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Every time anyone mentioned third trimester abortions prior to the recent SCOTUS ruling it was pointed out that third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare and are almost never utilized unless the mother’s life is in danger. My proposal allows for late term abortions when the mother is in danger.

You’re trying to negotiate with something I’ve already granted you.
So they existed? You seem to go back and forth on what was available before.

So….I’m willing to compromise….and you’re being a twit.
 

TJ8869

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So they existed? You seem to go back and forth on what was available before.

So….I’m willing to compromise….and you’re being a twit.
I refer you to the chart that Finance85 posted on the previous page. Third trimester abortions account for about 0.04% of all abortions, or roughly 1 out of every 2500. And even then they are almost always due to medical complications that endanger the mother's life, which I've already conceded as part of the compromise.

I'm offering you guaranteed access to legal abortion in every state, including states like Texas and Oklahoma and Idaho and Mississippi and others that have placed severe restrictions on them, for 95% of all abortions that were previously taking place, in exchange for giving up the other 5%.

That's a compromise. You're not compromising at all here.

blog_abortions_gestational_age-1.gif
 

BelemNole

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I refer you to the chart that Finance85 posted on the previous page. Third trimester abortions account for about 0.04% of all abortions, or roughly 1 out of every 2500. And even then they are almost always due to medical complications that endanger the mother's life, which I've already conceded as part of the compromise.

I'm offering you guaranteed access to legal abortion in every state, including states like Texas and Oklahoma and Idaho and Mississippi and others that have placed severe restrictions on them, for 95% of all abortions that were previously taking place, in exchange for giving up the other 5%.

That's a compromise. You're not compromising at all here.

blog_abortions_gestational_age-1.gif
Holy shit dude.
 

THE_DEVIL

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Aug 16, 2005
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Hell, Michigan
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I refer you to the chart that Finance85 posted on the previous page. Third trimester abortions account for about 0.04% of all abortions, or roughly 1 out of every 2500. And even then they are almost always due to medical complications that endanger the mother's life, which I've already conceded as part of the compromise.

I'm offering you guaranteed access to legal abortion in every state, including states like Texas and Oklahoma and Idaho and Mississippi and others that have placed severe restrictions on them, for 95% of all abortions that were previously taking place, in exchange for giving up the other 5%.

That's a compromise. You're not compromising at all here.

blog_abortions_gestational_age-1.gif
Looking at the chart it appears that at weeks 20-21 it qualifies as rare. I would be in favor of splitting the difference at 19. If we can make it completely legal with absolutely no carve outs or exceptions to limit access or the ability to ever change the time frame I could be on board.
 
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TJ8869

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Looking at the chart it appears that at weeks 20-21 it qualifies as rare. I would be in favor of splitting the difference at 19. If we can make it completely legal with absolutely no carve outs or exceptions to limit access or the ability to ever change the time frame I could be on board.
Take note, Belem - this is what compromise looks like.
 
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THE_DEVIL

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Aug 16, 2005
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I can see Ottumwa becoming the Mecca of the Midwest very soon! Invest wisely, oh, Great One!
I can see Ottumwa becoming a pilgrimage destination for millions of DEVIL worshippers, very soon.
Sadly, O-Town has become a very religious area.(which explains its turning red politically) It has always been religious but the influx of "The Browns" has upped the percentage dramatically ;)
 

joelbc1

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Sep 5, 2007
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you can’t always get what you want!
Wow! Impressive!
Looks like a lot of “evangelical” congregations, too! (thems the worst ones...the Falwell / Baker followers!)
Methinks I recently counted like 24 congregations back home...for a population of about 11k.....but mine are more “mainstream” ;) than yours! RCA, Christian Reformed, we even have churches for Lutherans, Catholics and Methodists!
But hey, I’m impressed Ottumwa has more churches than meat Packers! When I was growing up, not sure that was the case.
 
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