Midlands vs Scuffle Talent Pools

[DonHawkeye]

I know this topic has been beaten to death. But Midlands was getting some love with it's projected participants this year and then got ripped on hard after some pull outs.

Then I heard about 50 times how Scuffle was the toughest tournament during the Flo broadcast.

I know they also kept throwing out that they had 7 #1 at Scuffle. Which they did by way of Flo. If you go by Win Midlands had 3 (add Long and DT which I think would be #1 at 141 & 184) and Scuffle had 5. And actually if you went by win and added Long and DT to those rankings then you would only have 3 of the best at Scuffle. My point is there was equal top top level talent.

Here is a breakdown of the tournaments by Top 8 / Top 20 participants, which I think give a good idea of different talent levels. I used Intermat for these which I find to be the most unbiased

125: Midlands 2/5 Scuffle 2/6
133: Midlands 2/7 Scuffle 3/5
141: Midlands 3/6(+Long) Scuffle 3/7
149: Midlands 4/8(+Kem) Scuffle 3/7
157: Midlands 2/8 Scuffle 2/6(+Smith)
165: Midlands 1/7 Scuffle 1/5 (+Massa)
174: Midlands 1/6 Scuffle 4/6
184: Midlands 4/8(+DT) Scuffle 3/7
197: Midlands 2/8 Scuffle 4/7
HWT: Midlands 4/8 Scuffle 2/7

I also know there was some other talent, backups and redshirts, at both tournaments that would be top 20, but only added guys I thought would be top 8 (All American) level talent.

My conclusion is that even with the massive late pullouts of talent from Midlands this year that these tournaments had about the same amount of individual talent in them and that is great to have 2 tough mid-season tournaments. It is probably better than having 1 super tough Midlands that is basically the pre-NCAAs.

 

[Lsanders20]

Nice work Don. I totally agree. There are a lot of teams at Midlands that always represent well at Nationals. Illinois and Brewer not being there definitely changed your numbers a bit but it was still a great measuring stick for the Hawks. PSU looks pretty scary right now but we got 3 months to go here.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

I know this topic has been beaten to death. But Midlands was getting some love with it's projected participants this year and then got ripped on hard after some pull outs.

Then I heard about 50 times how Scuffle was the toughest tournament during the Flo broadcast.

I know they also kept throwing out that they had 7 #1 at Scuffle. Which they did by way of Flo. If you go by Win Midlands had 3 (add Long and DT which I think would be #1 at 141 & 184) and Scuffle had 5. And actually if you went by win and added Long and DT to those rankings then you would only have 3 of the best at Scuffle. My point is there was equal top top level talent.

Here is a breakdown of the tournaments by Top 8 / Top 20 participants, which I think give a good idea of different talent levels. I used Intermat for these which I find to be the most unbiased

125: Midlands 2/5 Scuffle 2/6
133: Midlands 2/7 Scuffle 3/5
141: Midlands 3/6(+Long) Scuffle 3/7
149: Midlands 4/8(+Kem) Scuffle 3/7
157: Midlands 2/8 Scuffle 2/6(+Smith)
165: Midlands 1/7 Scuffle 1/5 (+Massa)
174: Midlands 1/6 Scuffle 4/6
184: Midlands 4/8(+DT) Scuffle 3/7
197: Midlands 2/8 Scuffle 4/7
HWT: Midlands 4/8 Scuffle 2/7

I also know there was some other talent, backups and redshirts, at both tournaments that would be top 20, but only added guys I thought would be top 8 (All American) level talent.

My conclusion is that even with the massive late pullouts of talent from Midlands this year that these tournaments had about the same amount of individual talent in them and that is great to have 2 tough mid-season tournaments. It is probably better than having 1 super tough Midlands that is basically the pre-NCAAs.

"If you went by win..." whatever follows is taken with a grain of salt.

 

[rossel 33]

"If you went by win..." whatever follows is taken with a grain of salt.

-------

WIN had Gulibon at #8 in preseason rankings, FLO had him at #1

remind me again, which one am I supposed to take with a grain of salt?

 

[Scryed]

Keep in mind Flo is always going to hype up the events they cover to keep/gain viewership. That said, I found the finals of the Scuffle much more exciting than the finals of the Midlands. I also like the product Flo put together, it was a fun way to spend a couple of days, watching all that quality wrasslin'.

 

[MSU158]

Although the overall talent was similar, there is no doubt the Scuffle Finalists stood out, with the exception of 149 and 285. Still, I definitely WOULD NOT say that FLO "out produced" BTN. I wouldn't expect FLO to beat BTN, but Scryed's tone made me respond.

In comparison:

Midlands-------------------------------------Scuffle
125: Gilman vs. Rios----------------125: Megaludis vs. Klimara
133: Saavedra vs. Alber------------133: Garrett vs. Conaway
141: Long vs. Bleise-----------------141: Heil vs. McKenna
149: Sorenson vs. Tsirtsis----------149: Retherford vs. Henderson
157: Pack vs. Gantt------------------157: Nolf vs. Smith
165: Weatherman vs. Welch-------165: Dieringer vs. Massa
174: Walters vs. Schleiffer----------174: Nickal vs. Ramos
184: Taylor vs. Dudley---------------184: Dean vs. Brown
197: Burak vs. White-----------------197: McIntosh vs. Pfarr
285: Gwiz vs. Hall---------------------285: Marsden vs. Dejournette.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Although the overall talent was similar, there is no doubt the Scuffle Finalists stood out, with the exception of 149 and 285. Still, I definitely WOULD NOT say that FLO "out produced" BTN. I wouldn't expect FLO to beat BTN, but Scryed's tone made me respond.

In comparison:

Midlands-------------------------------------Scuffle
125: Gilman vs. Rios----------------125: Megaludis vs. Klimara
133: Saavedra vs. Alber------------133: Garrett vs. Conaway
141: Long vs. Bleise-----------------141: Heil vs. McKenna
149: Sorenson vs. Tsirtsis----------149: Retherford vs. Henderson
157: Pack vs. Gantt------------------157: Nolf vs. Smith
165: Weatherman vs. Welch-------165: Dieringer vs. Massa
174: Walters vs. Schleiffer----------174: Nickal vs. Ramos
184: Taylor vs. Dudley---------------184: Dean vs. Brown
197: Burak vs. White-----------------197: McIntosh vs. Pfarr
285: Gwiz vs. Hall---------------------285: Marsden vs. Dejournette.

I think I give 141 and 184 as far as intrigue goes to Midlands. It would have been nice for Mecate or Jack to be the other guy in the 141 finals but Long's story and wrestling style is hard to beat.

 

[CholleyVandine]

-------

WIN had Gulibon at #8 in preseason rankings, FLO had him at #1

remind me again, which one am I supposed to take with a grain of salt?

Win also had Meyer ranked 9th at 174 pre-season. I think we can agree that Win gets them right sometimes.

Of course, they also had the wrong name for Oregon State's 125 pounder, forgot to rank Blaise Butler, had Mason Beckman ranked third, and left Bo Nickal and Jason Nolf unranked. So a grain of salt might not be a bad thing.

 

[MSU158]

DonHawkeye,


I get what you are saying. However, I would rather see Heil and McKenna(whom are both likely NCAA finalist candidates) and Dean and Brown(last year's Finalists) go at it. I didn't really need to see two former PSU guys(one is now in NAIA and the other is a top 3 U.S. Freestyler) beat up on a freshman and a 1X 8th place AA(although Dudley did VERY well).

 

[CP84]

Quite frankly I could care less about preseason rankings especially as it pertains to freshman.

 

[Azchief32]

I think I give 141 and 184 as far as intrigue goes to Midlands. It would have been nice for Mecate or Jack to be the other guy in the 141 finals but Long's story and wrestling style is hard to beat.

I don't think he wrestled either one. For being a weak tourney, a lot of returning AA/high ranking guys got beat.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

-------

WIN had Gulibon at #8 in preseason rankings, FLO had him at #1

remind me again, which one am I supposed to take with a grain of salt?

Win has a 2x returning champ at the weight that has not lost a match this season or last ranked behind a guy that took 4 losses at a lower weight last season, has never won NCAAs and has yet to wrestle a match this season let alone a match at the higher weight class.

I get your point about the Flo JG ranking but WIN has historically had more puzzling rankings.

 

[rossel 33]

Win has a 2x returning champ at the weight that has not lost a match this season or last ranked behind a guy that took 4 losses at a lower weight last season, has never won NCAAs and has yet to wrestle a match this season let alone a match at the higher weight class.

I get your point about the Flo JG ranking but WIN has historically had more puzzling rankings.

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I assume you're talking about Snyder being ranked ahead of Gwiaz at Hwt.

If so, you left out a little fact about the guy who "never won ncaas"... he has since become the World FS gold medal winner at 211#. So the hwt rankings are in a unique situation all of a sudden. I'd also point out that FLO has Snyder at #2, ahead of Coon, Walz, Marsden, and all the rest, so not dramatically different from WIN.

Historically, I can't really vouch for the accuracy of WIN, so not saying you're wrong. To be honest, I take all the rankings with a grain of salt, unless something is pretty outrageous. At Hwt, I actually would favor Gwiaz over Snyder, but just a guess.

 

[gablefan73]

Using Snyder as your example of Win being worse than Flo is not going to win many arguments. Jimmy number 1 at 141 pretty much trumps any other ranking joke.