More Crazy Democratic Bullshit!

[Fluffles]

The nuclear family narrative is just an attempt by conservatives to place the blame on blacks instead of acknowledging this is a complex societal issue of poverty, an overly punitive criminal justice system, and woefully underfunded inner city schools. As if complex social problems can be boiled down to the fact that Mommy and Daddy don’t live in the same home. Besides, generations of black families were torn apart during slavery and post slavery high incarceration rates—pretty easy to understand how some of them might not place too much value on the traditional family.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Hey!

Maybe that's a big part of the reason why BLM wants to 86 the traditional nuclear family precept.

I noticed that as well...disparaging the “nuclear” family as a part of “white culture” seems pretty counterproductive and extremely disingenuous

That’s not what BLM said, but I don’t expect too much literacy from an Okie.

 

[z_ape]

Not much, but you can start by eliminating/reforming the systems that reinforce it in the first place. Like addressing clearly skewed AP courses.

I totally don't get this. Presumably AP course selection is made available to those that have proven academically capable of handling the work. (Now if they're not selecting on capability, that is a real problem)

And if you're seeing that X group is underperforming in proportion to their population... then find why that is. Trace it back.

The problem likely isn't AP selection criteria.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Eh, while I can't imagine it being anything but a negative, its actual impact isn't very clear. Would well off divorced asian parents see their kids struggle more academically than their married counterparts?

I'm not so sure that single parent households aren't more of an associative marker for some of these problems than a causal agent.

Anecdotally you can find examples of plenty single parent households doing just fine.

Single parent households writ large have much less household income than 2 parent households.

The difference is staggering and effects where their kids go to school.

81k for two parent households

26K for single mother households

Numbers from 2012

The Rise of Single Parent Households

Nontraditional family structures are becoming the norm, and the effects of single parenting are far-reaching for both children and adults.

online.aurora.edu

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Not much, but you can start by eliminating/reforming the systems that reinforce it in the first place. Like addressing clearly skewed AP courses.

How are they skewed? Sorry if you answered that...must have missed it

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

That’s not what BLM said, but I don’t expect too much literacy from an Okie.

Pretty damned close

FACT CHECK: Is it true that Black Lives Matter wants to abolish the nuclear family? | Independent Women's Forum

It seems to want the black community to stop embracing the nuclear family.

www.iwf.org

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

That’s not what BLM said, but I don’t expect too much literacy from an Okie.

So it wasn't in their mission statement?

 

[z_ape]

Anecdotally you can find examples of plenty single parent households doing just fine.

Single parent households writ large have much less household income than 2 parent households.

The difference is staggering and effects where their kids go to school.

81k for two parent households

26K for single mother households

Numbers from 2012

The Rise of Single Parent Households

Nontraditional family structures are becoming the norm, and the effects of single parenting are far-reaching for both children and adults.

online.aurora.edu

Sure. I don't doubt your statistics. I'm talking about what they mean. (and I'm all for intelligent analysis of the problem -- maybe not having two parents is a bigger deal than I suspect)

To try to make clear my point: ice cream and sexual assault trend together. When one goes up, the other goes up. And vice versa for down.

But this is caused by a third variable affecting those two variable: warm weather.

And so I'm not so sure that we're not seeing a third variable situation here; where single-family households and academic performance decline and rise together.

Hence association vs causation. (maybe you already knew all this, but that's all I was getting at)

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

So it wasn't in their mission statement?

If you’d have bothered to read it, or had the ability to decipher the full quote (not the one force fed by far right media. And I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you just never critically examined the claim). You’ll see it’s about EXPANDING the family to create more responsibility for each other’s children in the community. It’s why PolitiFact rated a claim such as yours as “Mostly False”...

First, Brewer’s statement doesn’t fully represent what the Black Lives Matter website says about families.

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable," it says on the page titled "What we believe."

The movement, which was formed in response to the 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman, a neighborhood-watch volunteer who fatally shot teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida, also says:

"We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work ‘double shifts’ so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."


https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/aug/28/ask-politifact-does-black-lives-matter-aim-destroy/

 

[MitchLL]

Must be exhausting combing the internet to find things to get triggered over.

They're trying to match the complaints we had against Trump. They'll never come close, even if the Dems have the WH until 2028.

They only make themselves seem petty.

 

[z_ape]

So it wasn't in their mission statement?

The text was:
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

They're bitching about popular western culture holding up the nuclear family as the norm. This is differently than criticizing the nuclear family structure as a structure itself..

Now... maybe it's a bit a dumb to even criticize it as a norm... nevertheless, they go on to sort of make a case for "villages" as another option of family structure they seem to think valid.

What exactly their "villages" are or could be in composition, I don't know. I'm not going to disagree with them that the norming of nuclear-families insomuch as its not-inclusive of other useful family structures might be problematic.

But, given the vagueness of 'villages' -- are they trying to stuff all the current single family households that objectively *don't* function as well as nuclear family structures, on average, into this category? -- it's possible that this blurb was added as a political refutation of the pushing of two family households as the way to be because they don't like the pushers. (conservatives)

At any rate, I'm glad they removed it, it didn't help their cause.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Sure. I don't doubt your statistics. I'm talking about what they mean. (and I'm all for intelligent analysis of the problem -- maybe not having two parents is a bigger deal than I suspect)

To try to make clear my point: ice cream and sexual assault trend together. When one goes up, the other goes up. And vice versa for down.

But this is caused by a third variable affecting those two variable: warm weather.

And so I'm not so sure that we're not seeing a third variable situation here; where single-family households and academic performance decline and rise together.

Hence association vs causation. (maybe you already knew all this, but that's all I was getting at)

Fair enough...there’s always confounding factors and I’m not saying this is the only factor.

I have a hard time believing it doesn’t have a impact though and IMO it’s pretty major but I’ve been wrong before

 

[z_ape]

The nuclear family narrative is just an attempt by conservatives to place the blame on blacks instead of acknowledging this is a complex societal issue of poverty, an overly punitive criminal justice system, and woefully underfunded inner city schools. As if complex social problems can be boiled down to the fact that Mommy and Daddy don’t live in the same home. Besides, generations of black families were torn apart during slavery and post slavery high incarceration rates—pretty easy to understand how some of them might not place too much value on the traditional family.

Again, just don't see this. You got intent wrong here.

While I'm sure *some* conservatives are attracted to the narrative because they're hostile towards blacks, I think that's a definite minority.

I think most conservatives are earnest in their argument that better family structure would be of great benefit to black families. (because it's not as if conservatives haven't been proponents of traditional family structure as a solution for a zillion other issues -- they really believe in this stuff)

From there... do the damn analysis, and see what you get. Certainly the statistics are there for at least taking a serious look.

(that said, I'm guessing the real cause is further back and that this is just associative stuff with family and outcome, to a decent degree -- it's some other common cultural failing)

 

[z_ape]

Fair enough...there’s always confounding factors and I’m not saying this is the only factor.

I have a hard time believing it doesn’t have a impact though and IMO it’s pretty major but I’ve been wrong before

I agree that it's hard to imagine it not having an impact... question is how much, exactly.

I mean, it could be all kinds of things.

It could be that developmentally, as a culture, that the habits and values -- if they don't already exist -- won't tend to develop as well in a more... erm... stressful single parent situation. That is, once a culture has the momentum developed for things like valuing education, hard work, whatever... then it's better able to withstand single parent situations like the asian one I posited. So a culture is more likely to sputter and develop bad-or-lack-of-good habits without a solid two parent family foundation. (or a village or whatever else is useful in fostering this sort of thing)

That's spitballing... but, who knows.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

If you’d have bothered to read it, or had the ability to decipher the full quote (not the one force fed by far right media. And I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you just never critically examined the claim). You’ll see it’s about EXPANDING the family to create more responsibility for each other’s children in the community. It’s why PolitiFact rated a claim such as yours as “Mostly False”...

First, Brewer’s statement doesn’t fully represent what the Black Lives Matter website says about families.

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable," it says on the page titled "What we believe."

The movement, which was formed in response to the 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman, a neighborhood-watch volunteer who fatally shot teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida, also says:

"We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work ‘double shifts’ so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work."


https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/aug/28/ask-politifact-does-black-lives-matter-aim-destroy/

And here I thought you were going to hide behind the "disrupt" misdirection. So good on you for having moved on.

So without the encumbrance of "what does disrupt mean" I'll just take that part of the statement at face value and politihack can have their opinion too.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

And here I thought you were going to hide bend the "disrupt" misdirection. So good on you for having moved on.

So without the encumbrance of "what does disrupt mean" I'll just take that part of the statement at face value and politihack can have their opinion too.

Literal definitions and context are both hard. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[z_ape]

Boston Public Schools Suspends Test For Advanced Learning Classes; Concerns About Program’s Racial Inequities Linger

An analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black.

www.wgbh.org

Getting back to the actual article.

Here's how they should handle AP classes:

Make sure every student capable of the work has a chance to participate. Done. That's it.

If they're not doing that, then they're in the wrong. If they're only offering it to X amount based upon Y percentage be permitted -- regardless actual capability -- then that's a problem too.

...

The point here is human development. Do a good job of that. Stop worrying about race/group from the perspective of development -- develop all that can be to be best of your ability...

Retarding human development for the mere purpose of more equitable outcomes on a piece of paper is profoundly unethical. Profoundly unethical.

 

[stillh8unlv]

Not much, but you can start by eliminating/reforming the systems that reinforce it in the first place. Like addressing clearly skewed AP courses.

How are they 'clearly skewed'?

 

[z_ape]

Boston Public Schools Suspends Test For Advanced Learning Classes; Concerns About Program’s Racial Inequities Linger

An analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black.

www.wgbh.org

Getting back to the actual article.

Here's how they should handle AP classes:

Make sure every student capable of the work has a chance to participate. Done. That's it.

If they're not doing that, then they're in the wrong. If they're only offering it to X amount based upon Y percentage be permitted -- regardless actual capability -- then that's a problem too.

...

The point here is human development. Do a good job of that. Stop worrying about race/group from the perspective of development -- develop all that can be to be best of your ability...

Retarding human development for the mere purpose of more equitable outcomes on a piece of paper is profoundly unethical. Profoundly unethical.

And by all means... do what you can to develop those lagging behind so that they might be able to take the AP classes. Remedial classes, extra hours after class, funding for tutors. By all means. Go for it.

Development isn't a zero-sum game. It *doesn't* have to be so that because there are so many successful asians/whites that there can't also be lots of successful in X group.

It's a catastrophe in thinking to posit otherwise.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

How are they 'clearly skewed'?

Are you fugging kidding? Did you read the statistics in the article about the racial makeup of the system vs AP courses? It was only marginally better than outright school segregation.

 

[Tom Paris]

Here is the main problem with all of this leftist bullshit today. The schools do not have that much to do with the difference. Plus, we can throw money at it, and it is not going to fix it. It iPeople that succeed come from homes with two parents (by and large). Parents that teach their kids skills, that teach them vocabulary just by interacting with them and parents that make sure they are behaving properly and,,,,,yes, actually working hard in school. Plus, here is another big shocker, it is not just the parent, it is the grandparents too. Multigenerational shit is at play here. When you have parents and Grandparents that everyday wake up trying to figure out how to help their kids and others, rather than their own selfish on the spot wants and needs, well then, yeah, some groups succeed more than others. It is bullshit that others are trying to dumb down society by saying the tests are too hard. ****ing step up. This is hard shit. It is hard to stay married, it sometimes sucks, it is hard to be responsible and hold yourselves accountable to the standards of Euro Centric White culture that just ****ing works when you behave in the right way. It is not fun all the time. In fact, sometimes it sucks to have to put off immediate gratification. Unlike BLM that rejects these standards and refuses to feel guilty and adhere to Eurocentric ideologies of the nuclear family. Cause that shit is hard, yo!

Black culture sucks, and killing programs like this because that community is put out because they cannot get their shit together, well that sucks even more.

Black culture sucks? Are you one of those MAGAs that gets pissed when they are called a racist?

 

[Pinehawk]

OP says problems in white American are because of some ‘idiots’, but when discussing black Americans, the problem is their ‘culture’.
Not exactly being held to the same standard.

Challenges that face black Americans are due in large part from the many hurdles they have had to face over the past generations.
Challenges most white Americans have not had to overcome to be in the position they are today.

 

[stillh8unlv]

Are you fugging kidding? Did you read the statistics in the article about the racial makeup of the system vs AP courses? It was only marginally better than outright school segregation.

I'm sorry I thought that you meant that the AP courses themselves (as in what was being taught) were clearly skewed towards the white and Asian people, my bad.

 

[z_ape]

It was only marginally better than outright school segregation.

So is your assumption in all this that it *must* be that the AP classes are not using just selection criteria -- just being simple merit; who is capable and who isn't, of the work?

Because if not, it would seem the AP selection criteria is fine and doesn't need reform. Rather, the work lies elsewhere when speaking of why there aren't more black/latino students in the AP classes.

 

[z_ape]

Challenges that face black Americans are due in large part from the many hurdles they have had to face over the past generations.

Careful now... you're well on your way to victim blaming.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

I'm sorry I thought that you meant that the AP courses themselves (as in what was being taught) were clearly skewed towards the white and Asian people, my bad.

And I wrongly assumed yours wasn’t a sincere question. That’s on me. Sorry.

 

[Tom Paris]

So, what came first, the Chicken or the Egg.

BS. being poor is not the predictor. It is present, but not the cause. But keep trying. Where did college come in on this, there are plenty of jobs out there you can support a family on without a college degree. But that is hard shit, you have to show up every day.

LOL. Your side is against paying people a livable wage...like every other successful country is able to do. I mean, literally your side just voted 100% against Covid relief. They absolutely hate the minimum wage. YOUR side likes keeping Americans poor. Weird.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

Literal definitions and context are both hard. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Yeah, you want to keep emphasizing "context" as though the last part of the sentence (not even a paragraph) subordinates the first.

It doesn't. It is the means ("by supporting...") they intend to accomplish this "disruption."

Reading in general is hard, I suppose.

 

[Tom Paris]

Eh, while I can't imagine it being anything but a negative, its actual impact isn't very clear. Would well off divorced asian parents see their kids struggle more academically than their married counterparts?

I'm not so sure that single parent households aren't more of an associative marker for some of these problems than a causal agent.

Single parent households are a HUGE issue with poverty. Davenport did a study of it's neighborhoods about 15 years ago. The school I taught at...with a VERY poor clientele with lots of issues, was in an area with over 60% single parent households. I am being conservative in that number too. It was almost unbelievable how many families in that neighborhood were single parent households.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

So is your assumption in all this that it *must* be that the AP classes are not using just selection criteria -- just being simple merit; who is capable and who isn't, of the work?

Because if not, it would seem the AP selection criteria is fine and doesn't need reform. Rather, the work lies elsewhere when speaking of why there aren't more black/latino students in the AP classes.

Having seen it up close from a secondary and higher education perspective, a disparity that bad is almost always because the criteria is far more subjective than people realize, and is often paired with simply bad data analysis. CR Public Schools made this case pretty effectively, and now that more Black students make AP under the new criteria, they do almost exactly as well (if not better in some cases) than their white peers (there isn’t a statistically significant enough Asian population anymore to make any conclusions there, btw)

 

[Herkmeister]

A falling tide lowers all boats.

 

[BigDelHawk]

LOL. Your side is against paying people a livable wage...like every other successful country is able to do. I mean, literally your side just voted 100% against Covid relief. They absolutely hate the minimum wage. YOUR side likes keeping Americans poor. Weird.

A $15 minimum wage will destroy those who are on a fixed income. It will kill millions of jobs, and it is highly inflationary. In addition, it will trigger a wage price spiral that will end in stagflation. Plus, minimum wage jobs are typically only paying that when it is your first job. A job where you learn how to work, how to be a good employee. You know, training, something that will become even rarer in the black community once a $15 minimum wage is passed. You have not lived through it, but I have. 23% unemployment in the QC in the late 1970's. So, your living wage argument is bullshit.

But you go ahead and pass your feelgood law. We already are on a verge of massive inflation, lets just go ahead and pour gasoline on it. Democrats are idiots.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

If we can legislate people out of poverty why stop there?

Let's enact a mandatory maximum wage, make everyone billionaires!

 

[z_ape]

Having seen it up close from a secondary and higher education perspective, a disparity that bad is almost always because the criteria is far more subjective than people realize, and is often paired with simply bad data analysis. CR Public Schools made this case pretty effectively, and now that more Black students make AP under the new criteria, they do almost exactly as well (if not better in some cases) than their white peers (there isn’t a statistically significant enough Asian population anymore to make any conclusions there, btw)

I'm all for doing away with flawed entry criteria. When I read in the article that X amount of students were offered the courses, I assumed it almost had to have been on the criteria of having done X well grade wise in a given subject.

I always assumed that something like AP classes were simply interest + prior academic achievement. (I didn't do them myself, although I did take local community college classes)

And if it turns out that prior academic achievement isn't a good predictor of who might necessarily do well in AP classes, so be it -- just not terribly intuitive or on its face problematic reasoning.

Obviously what I found problematic was the idea that entry criteria was necessarily flawed because outcomes weren't what was expected/desired. Criteria is reasonable or not regardless outcome. (not that outcome can't make you revisit criteria)

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Overall this has been a pretty interesting conversation.

Not the norm around here lately.

Kudos to everyone

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

A $15 minimum wage will destroy those who are on a fixed income. It will will millions of jobs, and it is highly inflationary. In addition, it will trigger a wage price spiral that will end in stagflation. You have not lived through it, but I have. 23% unemployment in the QC in the late 1970's. So, your living wage argument is bullshit.

I kind of wonder how it will effect folks that get their income primarily from tips...bartenders, waitresses etc.

Lots of folks suck at tipping as is...could evaporate

Folks who work the bars and restaurants around here in Destin make better than 15 dollars an hour in tips. At least at the high traffic establishments

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

I'm all for doing away with flawed entry criteria. When I read in the article that X amount of students were offered the courses, I assumed it almost had to have been on the criteria of having done X well grade wise in a given subject.

I always assumed that something like AP classes were simply interest + prior academic achievement. (I didn't do them myself, although I did take local community college classes)

And if it turns out that prior academic achievement isn't a good predictor of who might necessarily do well in AP classes, so be it -- just not terribly intuitive or on its face problematic reasoning.

Obviously what I found problematic was the idea that entry criteria was necessarily flawed because outcomes weren't what was expected/desired. Criteria is reasonable or not regardless outcome. (not that outcome can't make you revisit criteria)

Of course. That’s a reasonable position. This isn’t a story until we learn why and how they address it going forward. The old idiom that “for every problem there’s a simple, and wrong, solution” applies.

 

[BigDelHawk]

Having seen it up close from a secondary and higher education perspective, a disparity that bad is almost always because the criteria is far more subjective than people realize, and is often paired with simply bad data analysis. CR Public Schools made this case pretty effectively, and now that more Black students make AP under the new criteria, they do almost exactly as well (if not better in some cases) than their white peers (there isn’t a statistically significant enough Asian population anymore to make any conclusions there, btw)

It helps when you dumb down both the class and the selection criteria.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

Single parent households are a HUGE issue with poverty. Davenport did a study of it's neighborhoods about 15 years ago. The school I taught at...with a VERY poor clientele with lots of issues, was in an area with over 60% single parent households. I am being conservative in that number too. It was almost unbelievable how many families in that neighborhood were single parent households.

Of course single parent households are challenged. Two parent households Often times have two incomes, but when there is only one income you have a parent dedicated full time to the children and the home. Naturally these children will perform better, get into college and have better careers on average.

The flip side of that argument is just as obviously true.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

It helps when you dumb down both the class and the selection criteria.

That was your ASSumption.