National Duals Idea

[DayHawk18]

Scrap the current format and make a national duals in mid December. Invite the top 16 ranked teams and do it somewhere big (not on a college campus).

Find some way to get the NCAA involved and make it important. Otherwise, the coaches have too much power in our current situation.

 

[Stanley75]

How about if you don't participate in the national duals you don't participate in the NCAA championships. You need the best teams preforming for the fans.

 

[nitlion6]

First, this is an NWCA event, not an NCAA event. It is not going to become an NCAA event anytime in the near future. It has the same significance as the Midlands or Southern Scuffle.

What would make sense to me is if the coaches who want to be part of the event would participate as they agreed to. If they do not wish to participate that is OK
Just say so prior to the scheduling of the event.

 

[DayHawk18]

First, this is an NWCA event, not an NCAA event. It is not going to become an NCAA event anytime in the near future. It has the same significance as the Midlands or Southern Scuffle.

What would make sense to me is if the coaches who want to be part of the event would participate as they agreed to. If they do not wish to participate that is OK
Just say so prior to the scheduling of the event.

No shit sherlock, of course it doesn't have anything to do with the NCAA or we'd be wrestling VT. That's why I'm saying get them involved and get rid of a meaningless dual meet right before conference.

We aren't going to wrestle VT unless it's required and that was known going into it. I'd like to make it mandatory and make it a huge deal.

 

[bphawkeye_Rivals]

My gut says the National Duals needs to be made up of the 8 best teams (or 4) at the NCAAs - 2 weeks later have the NDs and seed the teams accordingly and the winner of the 8/4 team tourney for the NCAA team Dual Champ. And keep the current champ for the individual tourney as is. But ... as many posters - will state - The NCAAs will only sanction one team champion per sport. Otherwise cats and dogs and mass hysteria will break out. including track / swimming / gym / etc....

So instead of that - it is basically going to be like a basketball tourney in Hawaii - or San Juan. So, that is what the NDs are - a tourney in Jamaica for the players (except they get to go to Pennsylvania in winter instead)

 

[Azchief32]

My gut says the National Duals needs to be made up of the 8 best teams (or 4) at the NCAAs - 2 weeks later have the NDs and seed the teams accordingly and the winner of the 8/4 team tourney for the NCAA team Dual Champ. And keep the current champ for the individual tourney as is. But ... as many posters - will state - The NCAAs will only sanction one team champion per sport. Otherwise cats and dogs and mass hysteria will break out. including track / swimming / gym / etc....

So instead of that - it is basically going to be like a basketball tourney in Hawaii - or San Juan. So, that is what the NDs are - a tourney in Jamaica for the players (except they get to go to Pennsylvania in winter instead)

Right now, it's the same as the ACC/B1G challenge except it's the B1G/Everyone challenge held right before the real nationals...not very smart. I didn't care for last year's...yea we lost but Stoll got injured which was the worse case scenario of wrestling an extra dual. I'd rather take chances with injury at the beginning of the season than to kick rocks at the end.

Instead of cupcake city at the beginning of the season, schedule a dual tourney after the first opens so everybody gets a tune up. Lose a dual off the schedule and make it a bigger deal...Grapple in the Garden but with good teams at a neutral site. Move it to bigger cities not known for wrestling after like KC, Chicago, Phoenix, San Diego or L.A., Orlando (Disneyworld), Denver and Minneapolis Maybe a place where fans and teams can take their families and make it a vacation or a guys get away for some golf before or after.

Or just scrap it and come to terms with the fact this is just another pain in the ass logistical problem/distraction for coaches who would rather be getting their guys ready for nationals because: "The reason we have a national championship is to determine the best team in the nation. Dual meets are subjective to “line-ups”and not the best way to determine real champion. The brilliance of the traditional format is that it “corrects” for the statistical problems with a larger “sample size." or "Because this proposal is being pushed using the argument “To get what we have never had, we must do what we have never done”. ironically, this proposal is in direct contrast to that argument. We have been trying for 25 years to make the National Duals work and still have not created a satisfactory result. Is this not continuing to do the same thing (disguised a little differently) and expecting a different result? Yes."--Cael Sanderson, 2012 (Of course, if you go with Jammenz theory, he said this when he had a better tournament team than a dual team)

 

[BuckyBison]

Why are we making this so complicated. Have #1 wrestle #2 and scrap the rest of the matches. Will there be years where coming up with #1 vs #2 is controversial - of course, but that isn't the worst thing in world - generates buzz, discussion, eyeballs, etc.

 

[SPOONER]

No shit sherlock, of course it doesn't have anything to do with the NCAA or we'd be wrestling VT. That's why I'm saying get them involved and get rid of a meaningless dual meet right before conference.

We aren't going to wrestle VT unless it's required and that was known going into it. I'd like to make it mandatory and make it a huge deal.

The NCAA doesn't want to be involved. That's the biggest reason we've gotten to this point.

 

[DayHawk18]

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/NWCA/PDF/NWCA National Duals.pdf

I saw this and holy crap...what an event it used to be! Disappointing Carl had to screw it up...

 

[nitlion6]

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/NWCA/PDF/NWCA National Duals.pdf

I saw this and holy crap...what an event it used to be! Disappointing Carl had to screw it up...

See Chief, this is an example of the reasons I make fun of Hawk fans. Some just are not as bright as the average dude and it shines a dim light on the rest of you.

 

[DayHawk18]

See Chief, this is an example of the reasons I make fun of Hawk fans. Some just are not as bright as the average dude and it shines a dim light on the rest of you.

See nitlion, Cael didn't like it with the date. So he came up with a different idea. I think the idea is terrible.

My previous idea would work great. It won't happen but oh well. Scrap the duals and just wrestle a dual with who you want or be off.

 

[Hawkirish]

See Chief, this is an example of the reasons I make fun of Hawk fans. Some just are not as bright as the average dude and it shines a dim light on the rest of you.

Thank god we have someone as smart as you on this board. You seem to be really smart - I especially enjoyed your post about the hypothetical of Terry going to Pitt wouldn't hurt penn state recruiting as Carl gets all the PA kids he wants. Of course you say with the exception of Spencer but isn't that the point? Neither you or I know for sure what would happen but history would show Terry may actually get a kid or two Carl wants even at Pitt. Brilliant stuff - keep showing us how smart you are.

 

[csiebott]

My gut says the National Duals needs to be made up of the 8 best teams (or 4) at the NCAAs - 2 weeks later have the NDs and seed the teams accordingly and the winner of the 8/4 team tourney for the NCAA team Dual Champ. And keep the current champ for the individual tourney as is. But ... as many posters - will state - The NCAAs will only sanction one team champion per sport. Otherwise cats and dogs and mass hysteria will break out. including track / swimming / gym / etc....

So instead of that - it is basically going to be like a basketball tourney in Hawaii - or San Juan. So, that is what the NDs are - a tourney in Jamaica for the players (except they get to go to Pennsylvania in winter instead)

I thought track has both indoor and outdoor championships.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

I thought track has both indoor and outdoor championships.

Yes, but with corresponding women's championships, too.

 

[lookleft goright]

The biggest problem with the national duals is that it should basically be a bunch of Bigs teams wrestling each other. In reality that is what it is. If there were 140 D1 wrestling teams and the Big 12 was a power house and the ACC or MAC or some other conference was a power house, there would be more excitement and more shifting of championships and more upsets.

Now it just is not the case. Hard to generate enthusiasm to watch more Big matches for the crowd. From a coaching stand point, it is hard to justify going to the tourney when you wrestle the same teams in a dual and then wrestle them in the Conference and then at the NCAAs.

Other than the Big schools, who would you like to see wrestle? Maybe Cornell, and OSU. Any others? Certainly Appy State or SDSU or Edinboro are not high on my, "I will drive 1-2 hours to watch them wrestle list".

I agree, let 1 and 2 wrestle and all it a day.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

How about limit it to 9 with top 3 big and top 6 non-big and make it tri-team meets. This year would've been
PSU-OSU-VT
Iowa-NCSt-Cornell
tOSU-Lehigh-SDSU (or NIU)

 

[nitlion6]

Thank god we have someone as smart as you on this board. You seem to be really smart - I especially enjoyed your post about the hypothetical of Terry going to Pitt wouldn't hurt penn state recruiting as Carl gets all the PA kids he wants. Of course you say with the exception of Spencer but isn't that the point? Neither you or I know for sure what would happen but history would show Terry may actually get a kid or two Carl wants even at Pitt. Brilliant stuff - keep showing us how smart you are.

How well Terry would do at Pitt would be a fun conversation. He would do great. Care to offer any example of who you think he may have taken from Cael? For the life of me I can not understand why you believe it is relative in this thread. Oh well.

 

[nitlion6]

See nitlion, Cael didn't like it with the date. So he came up with a different idea. I think the idea is terrible.

My previous idea would work great. It won't happen but oh well. Scrap the duals and just wrestle a dual with who you want or be off.

No, Cael did not screw anything up. He did not participate. He has his reasons for not participating, but so what?
The idea that Cael stopped the NWCA dual tournament is ridiculous.

 

[bluroptimo]

The NCAA doesn't want to be involved. That's the biggest reason we've gotten to this point.

The NWCA made a power grab when they attempted to insert The National Duals into the NCAA Traditional outcome. That was a huge mistake. Sure, it looked good from the NWCA's perspective, they saw the situation through their lens. But to anyone else, including the NCAA, tampering with wrestling's crown jewel was a terrible idea. In the last ten years the NCAA's have surged in attendance and viewers. You don't throw history out the window and try to reformat a successful event in the middle of a growth period. This and an 80+ year history seemed to matter little to the NWCA and that was one of their biggest problems. They were blinded by shiny things and their pet project idea.

Prior to that the NWCA ran the national duals and it was a respected invitational dual tournament. And it had growth potential but that was cut down by the NWCA's own hubris and poor planning. Imagine if they had gone with the option of maintaining course and adding internet coverage and better venue selection. But that was hard for them to see, they felt entitled to a slice of the NCAA title and who knows why. It's like asking Midlands or the Southern Scuffle to become part of the NCAA title outcome.

The NWCA would be smart to go back to the format they used in the past, before their attempted power grab. A dual tourney invitational mapped out well in advance with all meets happening on the same weekend is a good idea.

Whoever in the NWCA had the clouded judgement that led to them cannibalizing their own event should be put on mute. They have gone backwards and it is the result of someone's lack of better judgement. With that said I am excited to see PSU v OSU this weekend so it's not like they turned the event into nuclear waste. But it's a herky jerky execution and growing the event in its current format is uncertain at best.

 

[jammenz]

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/NWCA/PDF/NWCA National Duals.pdf

I saw this and holy crap...what an event it used to be! Disappointing Carl had to screw it up...

Going into this season Cael had a 4-10-1 dual record vs the big three (Minny, Iowa, Okie St). He knew that his tournament-based teams couldn't compete in a knockout style event so he used his influence to destroy the National Duals:http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/no-to-national-duals.
"The National Duals as the answer is dead." http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/our-own-worst-enemy

Somehow all his objections don't seem to apply when he created the current Bowl Series, or Cael's Folly as it is better known.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Going into this season Cael had a 4-10-1 dual record vs the big three (Minny, Iowa, Okie St). He knew that his tournament-based teams couldn't compete in a knockout style event so he used his influence to destroy the National Duals:http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/no-to-national-duals.
"The National Duals as the answer is dead." http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/our-own-worst-enemy

Somehow all his objections don't seem to apply when he created the current Bowl Series, or Cael's Folly as it is better known.

Memo to Jammy. Minny is no longer in the big three. That said, I love your National Championship t-shirt from 2014.

 

[Jackhawk87]

I still like the "idea" of National Duals. Right now, a "team" with 5 champs and 5 terrible nonqualifiers will win the NCAAs. It would be nice to give some credit to true great top-to-bottom teams. Okie St has a great team top to bottom this year, but still won't get past PSUs few studs (though PSU does have a pretty solid team this year [not counting 133]).

I would like a National Duals tourney in Dec or January with 8 (maybe up to 16) teams. Teams get a score heading into the traditional NCAAs based on their placement. Say the 1st place team starts with 20 points, 2nd gets 14, 3rd gets 10, 4th gets 7, etc. Teams outside the top 8 are really only fighting individually anyways, so this really only significantly affects the top 5 or 6 teams. This would make the dual championship worthwhile and important and yet not take the excitement away from the traditional NCAAs.

So if OSU beat PSU in a national duals tournament, they would start the traditional NCAAs in March with a 6 point lead - might make things even more exciting.

 

[bluroptimo]

Going into this season Cael had a 4-10-1 dual record vs the big three (Minny, Iowa, Okie St). He knew that his tournament-based teams couldn't compete in a knockout style event so he used his influence to destroy the National Duals:http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/no-to-national-duals.
"The National Duals as the answer is dead." http://www.caelsanderson.com/blog/our-own-worst-enemy

Somehow all his objections don't seem to apply when he created the current Bowl Series, or Cael's Folly as it is better known.

I get you wanting to hate on Cael cause he is successful and that's how some people react to success. But to oversimplify the situation to that degree is unfair to the situation.

Thank goodness Cael and Brands stood together on this one.

 

[bluroptimo]

I still like the "idea" of National Duals. Right now, a "team" with 5 champs and 5 terrible nonqualifiers will win the NCAAs. It would be nice to give some credit to true great top-to-bottom teams. Okie St has a great team top to bottom this year, but still won't get past PSUs few studs (though PSU does have a pretty solid team this year [not counting 133]).

I would like a National Duals tourney in Dec or January with 8 (maybe up to 16) teams. Teams get a score heading into the traditional NCAAs based on their placement. Say the 1st place team starts with 20 points, 2nd gets 14, 3rd gets 10, 4th gets 7, etc. Teams outside the top 8 are really only fighting individually anyways, so this really only significantly affects the top 5 or 6 teams. This would make the dual championship worthwhile and important and yet not take the excitement away from the traditional NCAAs.

Suggesting that the National Duals teams carry points into the NCAA is such a disaster of an idea I don't even know where to begin.

Had the NWCA kept building their event (National Duals) on its own merits those rare situations where a 5 champ team wins the traditional would at least have the offset of "but they didn't win NWCA National Duals."

As it is NWCA slid backwards with their attempted power grab and they need to recover. Returning to their old format is their best path forward. Leave all this hokus pokus NCAA point sharing behind. It's a plan to nowhere.

 

[menges00]

I can't state strongly enough how much I dislike any national dual proposal that would count points towards the national tournament. This should NEVER happen.

 

[redghost1974]

Didn't Stoll get injured at this garbage event last year?

 

[Jackhawk87]

You guys are probably right, but I wish they would do something to rescore the traditional NCAA tournament to give a few more points to the R12 -> 3rd or 4th place guys so the scoring isn't so top-heavy. Right now it is all about getting the champ that can get bonus and who cares about that guy that finished 7th.

 

[Hawkirish]

How well Terry would do at Pitt would be a fun conversation. He would do great. Care to offer any example of who you think he may have taken from Cael? For the life of me I can not understand why you believe it is relative in this thread. Oh well.

Let's try this again - Spencer Lee.

"For the life of me I can not understand why you believe it is relative in this thread."

Maybe you forgot your earlier post degrading Iowa fans:
"See Chief, this is an example of the reasons I make fun of Hawk fans. Some just are not as bright as the average dude and it shines a dim light on the rest of you."

Looks like maybe someone else isn't as smart as the average dude - thanks for the entertainment!

Regarding national duals - I enjoyed the couple I attended in CF and would prefer the old format with the smaller schools also involved. I for one was glad to see Carl and Tom challenge Koll and his posse when they started making changes.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Taking out the National Duals would Iowa be taking this weekend off? I know plenty of other programs have/had something on the schedule 2 weeks before conferences. Has Iowa wrestled this week in the past or is it the borm to take a full 3 week break from competing before conferences?

Also that whole injury thing is minimal. Far less chance of getting hurt during 7 minutes of wrestling one match than any week of double digit hours of practice (that includes live goes against guys better than your opponent any given week) leading into or after the duals.

 

[MVPFAN]

I still like the "idea" of National Duals. Right now, a "team" with 5 champs and 5 terrible nonqualifiers will win the NCAAs. It would be nice to give some credit to true great top-to-bottom teams. Okie St has a great team top to bottom this year, but still won't get past PSUs few studs (though PSU does have a pretty solid team this year [not counting 133]).

I would like a National Duals tourney in Dec or January with 8 (maybe up to 16) teams. Teams get a score heading into the traditional NCAAs based on their placement. Say the 1st place team starts with 20 points, 2nd gets 14, 3rd gets 10, 4th gets 7, etc. Teams outside the top 8 are really only fighting individually anyways, so this really only significantly affects the top 5 or 6 teams. This would make the dual championship worthwhile and important and yet not take the excitement away from the traditional NCAAs.

So if OSU beat PSU in a national duals tournament, they would start the traditional NCAAs in March with a 6 point lead - might make things even more exciting.

I don't see them beating PSU in a dual either.

 

[MVPFAN]

December before the break or January after the break are the best times to do something. After the regular tournament is a terrible idea. No one will care for sure. Guys are not looking to get ramped up again after giving all they have at the regular tournament and many are really hurting after that being dinged up. Maybe do what they are now but have them all at one site the same day. A big problem I see with any continuing bracket is the whole Big ten vs Big ten rematch issue. I don't think the big ten teams want to see each other again.

 

[DayHawk18]

So apparently Cael needs more scholarships in order to want to have a dual national champion...oh okay

 

[bphawkeye_Rivals]

I thought track has both indoor and outdoor championships.

You are correct Sir - Also V-ball has a beach and indoor team champ. I know for a fact that the same players participate in each. Pretty damn sure Track has the same thing.

Now - I'm back to my original thought. NCAA should sanction the top 8 (or 4 teams) from the NCAA tourney for a real Dual Meet Championship 2 weeks after the Classic Championship. Otherwise it is a joke - which teams would be wiser to stay clear of.

 

[chuck285]

No, Cael did not screw anything up. He did not participate. He has his reasons for not participating, but so what?
The idea that Cael stopped the NWCA dual tournament is ridiculous.

He knew he couldn't win so he said his team would not participate. When i had my own basketball I did the same thing. If I didn't get to play every min. I just took my ball and left.

 

[bphawkeye_Rivals]

side note - I apologize to my Hawkeye Wrestling HR poster friends about my posts last night. Some girl (from psu i believe) riled me up - and she would not let go - so I kept after her.
Cheers - to all

 

[Jaybird319]

First time I read Cael article. Can't say I really disagree with any of his points. National duals might have worked w a larger supply of colleges.

As colleges continue to eliminate programs the top tier programs wrestling each other more and more every year. There's a progressive over lap occurring yearly since the 80s.

What's the point? Tradition? Personally, I don't see a reason to participate in the event.

But then again I don't see the reason scoring nationals as a team event. Not when 1-2 finalists can outscore 40+ teams. That's just stupid saying it's a "team championship"

 

[nitlion6]

Let's try this again - Spencer Lee.

"For the life of me I can not understand why you believe it is relative in this thread."

Maybe you forgot your earlier post degrading Iowa fans:
"See Chief, this is an example of the reasons I make fun of Hawk fans. Some just are not as bright as the average dude and it shines a dim light on the rest of you."

Looks like maybe someone else isn't as smart as the average dude - thanks for the entertainment!

Regarding national duals - I enjoyed the couple I attended in CF and would prefer the old format with the smaller schools also involved. I for one was glad to see Carl and Tom challenge Koll and his posse when they started making changes.

I acknowledged Spencer got away from Cael. However, Spencer chose the University of Iowa not Pitt. Using Spencer as an example for Terry might divert a recruit or two away from PSU to Pitt is a zero substance argument. There is no merit, zero. That is unless you are telling me choosing to wrestle at Pitt is equivalent to choosing to wrestle at Iowa.

I do believe if Pitt jumped in with both feet to support wrestling Terry would go great at Pitt. Hell, if Pitt barely showed any interest at all similar to now, Terry would be a huge improvement and would still succeed.

With that said I do not see Terry/Pitt getting Nolf, Zain, Joesph, Gulibon away from Cael. TnT/Iowa got Spencer, not Pitt.

There is nothing intellectually missing from that point. If you believe there is, man that's on you. Not me.

 

[nitlion6]

First time I read Cael article. Can't say I really disagree with any of his points. National duals might have worked w a larger supply of colleges.

As colleges continue to eliminate programs the top tier programs wrestling each other more and more every year. There's a progressive over lap occurring yearly since the 80s.

What's the point? Tradition? Personally, I don't see a reason to participate in the event.

But then again I don't see the reason scoring nationals as a team event. Not when 1-2 finalists can outscore 40+ teams. That's just stupid saying it's a "team championship"

How many times in the past 40 years do you believe the NCAA championships failed to identify a worthy team champion?

 

[nitlion6]

He knew he couldn't win so he said his team would not participate. When i had my own basketball I did the same thing. If I didn't get to play every min. I just took my ball and left.

As I said Chief. Dim light shines dimly on a crowd.

 

[DayHawk18]

As I said Chief. Dim light shines dimly on a crowd.

The current format isn't working. The old system worked quite well until Cael decided he didn't like it. He attempted to destroy it and succeeded. Is that so hard for you to understand?