NATO membership for new nations

[thewop]

Should we have a 'come one come all' attitude toward new NATO members? Or should there be a bit of scrutiny, e.g. do they bring anything to the table?

I certainly understand why every little country would rush to join right now, but what's in it for us? Should we care what we gain?

Lately, I'm in the come one come all camp. The more countries in NATO, the weaker Russia is, and the fewer targets it has for future expansion.

 

[The Tradition]

If you're for freedom and liberty, join us.

 

[SalAunese]

Countries like Germany need to realize that their prior pacifist mindset is no longer viable. There’s a time and place for that but to ensure further peace, they need to act now

 

[SolarHawk]

Let ‘em all in

 

[Warrior Poet31]

If you're for freedom and liberty, join us.

Since when is America, or NATO, for that?

 

[The Tradition]

Since when is America, or NATO, for that?

Originally, America was for that.

Today? Not so much....

 

[mnole03]

We demand nudes from Sweden and Finland.

 

[Jim Grizzly]

Originally, America was for that.

Today? Not so much....

You guys are ridiculous. Yeah, we pay taxes but personally I haven't ever been bothered by a government official no matter what I post here or elsewhere. We are free AF.

 

[fezzador]

Right now, China is lurking in the shadows just grinning like a Cheshire cat while NATO bumbles around waiting for Russia’s next move.

China would completely obliterate Russia, and let’s face it, Russia could use the protection. It won’t happen under Putin, but once that loose cannon goes the way of the dodo we might as well send them an invitation. It’s a different world than it was 70 years ago and Russia just ain’t the player it used to be.

 

[The Tradition]

You guys are ridiculous. Yeah, we pay taxes but personally I haven't ever been bothered by a government official no matter what I post here or elsewhere. We are free AF.

O'really?

It's not about taxes, dude.

As an example, just look at all the byzantine regulations that you have to overcome to do something as simple as buying a house.

And then the crapola that you get for owning a house.

Freedom and liberty my ass.

 

[Scott559]

I own a house, Doesn’t seem overly complicated to me.

 

[Jim Grizzly]

O'really?

It's not about taxes, dude.

As an example, just look at all the byzantine regulations that you have to overcome to do something as simple as buying a house.

And then the crapola that you get for owning a house.

Freedom and liberty my ass.

Dude I own a house and a few rentals. You're a grade A moron.

 

[The Tradition]

I own a house, Doesn’t seem overly complicated to me.

Property ownership is a bedrock principle of freedom and liberty.

 

[The Tradition]

Dude I own a house and a few rentals. You're a grade A moron.

LOL.

Not complicated?

Okay, SureJan.gif

 

[BrunoMars420]

We demand nudes from Sweden and Finland.

I second this motion!

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Adding countries from the former USSR or Eastern Bloc is the height of absurdity. It needlessly antagonizes Russia and makes the U.S. look like imperialists. And for what? They offer very little and will serve no military purpose other than serving as a road bump. And in spite of everything that is said, rest assured, the U.S. will not go to war with Russia over Estonia and the like.

 

[The Tradition]

Adding countries from the former USSR or Eastern Bloc is the height of absurdity. It needlessly antagonizes Russia and makes the U.S. look like imperialists. And for what? They offer very little and will serve no military purpose other than serving as a road bump. And in spite of everything that is said, rest assured, the U.S. will not go to war with Russia over Estonia and the like.

Unity and making Russia a pariah state.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

Adding countries from the former USSR or Eastern Bloc is the height of absurdity. It needlessly antagonizes Russia and makes the U.S. look like imperialists. And for what? They offer very little and will serve no military purpose other than serving as a road bump. And in spite of everything that is said, rest assured, the U.S. will not go to war with Russia over Estonia and the like.

I think this was proper posture before the Ukraine war. Now we are in Cold War 2 I’m afraid, so better get all of our friends on board. Total failure of diplomacy.

But you are right, Russia legitimately has a security risk when everyone in Europe joins the “We hate Russia” club aka NATO.

 

[markfromj]

Since when is America, or NATO, for that?

JFC.

 

[markfromj]

Originally, America was for that.

Today? Not so much....

Oh, bullshit.

 

[tumorboy]

Dude I own a house and a few rentals. You're a grade A moron.

U forgot poor and lazy Jim as well.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Should we have a 'come one come all' attitude toward new NATO members? Or should there be a bit of scrutiny, e.g. do they bring anything to the table?

I certainly understand why every little country would rush to join right now, but what's in it for us? Should we care what we gain?

Lately, I'm in the come one come all camp. The more countries in NATO, the weaker Russia is, and the fewer targets it has for future expansion.

I would say it mostly should be any democratic nation in Europe or North America.

Quite frankly I wouldn't mind changing the name and including South Korea, Japan, and Australia in the mix. Just make it one giant mutual defense pact of democratic nations.

I do think they should push all governments to follow the 2% rule just to make sure everyone is contributing.

The core principle should be that the people in that country have the ultimate power over their government.

 

[BioHawk]

Adding countries from the former USSR or Eastern Bloc is the height of absurdity. It needlessly antagonizes Russia and makes the U.S. look like imperialists. And for what? They offer very little and will serve no military purpose other than serving as a road bump. And in spite of everything that is said, rest assured, the U.S. will not go to war with Russia over Estonia and the like.

It's a defense alliance and maybe if Russia hadn't spent pretty much their entire history of invading their neighbors then none of this would be necessary. It's not about what they offer, it's about making sure they are defended and I assure you, the United States will defend Estonia. Because they are part of NATO. We wouldn't if they were not, though. So I guess you are kind of right on that.

 

[BioHawk]

O'really?

It's not about taxes, dude.

As an example, just look at all the byzantine regulations that you have to overcome to do something as simple as buying a house.

And then the crapola that you get for owning a house.

Freedom and liberty my ass.

I'm not really sorry that it is hard to commit Real Estate Fraud.

 

[SotaHawk87]

Since when is America, or NATO, for that?

Did your mom put bleach in your formula as a baby?

 

[Warrior Poet31]

Did your mom put bleach in your formula as a baby?

Nah, she just made it with pure water and not that fluoridated crap out of a tap.

 

[Slappy Pappy]

Nah, she just made it with pure water and not that fluoridated crap out of a tap.

Yeah, "pure" water from the crick out back drainin' from the ol' coal mine's tailings pond, you homeschooled hillbilly.

 

[tumorboy]

Yeah, "pure" water from the crick out back drainin' from the ol' coal mine's tailings pond, you homeschooled hillbilly.

I raised on crickk water. It was good enough for me and my dead twelve siblings.

 

[Warrior Poet31]

Yeah, "pure" water from the crick out back drainin' from the ol' coal mine's tailings pond, you homeschooled hillbilly.

Such a bigoted statement. How sad.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Too many mutual defense pacts is what got WW1 going. Once mobilization started across Europe it was too late to stop it.

No, we shouldn't enter into a defense treaty with every country that wants one, unless you are prepared to send your own kids over there to die for them. There has to be something in it for us, and even entering into treaties with some countries can be viewed as an act of aggression by our enemies.

How would we react if China entered into defense treaties with Mexico and Central and South American countries? We'd tell them to get the F out of our backyard. Yes, I am aware they currently are messing around in the Americas, and we should be telling them to get the F out and be treating them like the enemy state that they are.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Too many mutual defense pacts is what got WW1 going. Once mobilization started across Europe it was too late to stop it.

No, we shouldn't enter into a defense treaty with every country that wants one, unless you are prepared to send your own kids over there to die for them. There has to be something in it for us, and even entering into treaties with some countries can be viewed as an act of aggression by our enemies.

How would we react if China entered into defense treaties with Mexico and Central and South American countries? We'd tell them to get the F out of our backyard. Yes, I am aware they currently are messing around in the Americas, and we should be telling them to get the F out and be treating them like the enemy state that they are.

Counter point to that.

First of all the thing that got World War 1 going was because Germany assured Austria of it's backing when they went to war with Serbia despite the fact that they did not have to.

Secondly and more importantly there are not multiple mutual defense pacts but one giant mutual defense pact.

Third I wouldn't care if Mexico entered into some pact with China because we have no intent on invading Mexico.
Lastly World War 2 lasted far longer and was far bloodier than it needed to be because other nations were hesitant to defend one another. In fact the only reason there was a victory was the Axis powers bit off more than they could chew in attacking the USSR and the USA.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

Too many mutual defense pacts is what got WW1 going. Once mobilization started across Europe it was too late to stop it.

No, we shouldn't enter into a defense treaty with every country that wants one, unless you are prepared to send your own kids over there to die for them. There has to be something in it for us, and even entering into treaties with some countries can be viewed as an act of aggression by our enemies.

How would we react if China entered into defense treaties with Mexico and Central and South American countries? We'd tell them to get the F out of our backyard. Yes, I am aware they currently are messing around in the Americas, and we should be telling them to get the F out and be treating them like the enemy state that they are.

Now you know how Russia feels. Not saying they were justified invading Ukraine, because they were not, but I don't buy the idea of Putin just being some power hungry madman either.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Now you know how Russia feels. Not saying they were justified invading Ukraine, because they were not, but I don't buy the idea of Putin just being some power hungry madman either.

Because the motives of a man who has all of his political opponents murdered are so pure.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

Because the motives of a man who has all of his political opponents murdered are so pure.

That is how it is over most of the globe, sadly. The point is not that Putin is a good dude, because clearly he is not. The point is that more respect to Russias point of view could have prevented this terrible war.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

That is how it is over most of the globe, sadly. The point is not that Putin is a good dude, because clearly he is not. The point is that more respect to Russias point of view could have prevented this terrible war.

Their perspective is that Ukraine belongs to them and that Ukraine should obey their wishes.

If Ukraine wanted to be a sovereign nation, and make it's own decisions independent of Russia's feelings, this war could not be prevented.

Why do you think the Finns and the Swedes are now suddenly mulling over joining NATO? They know Russian intentions better than anyone.

 

[Warrior Poet31]

Their perspective is that Ukraine belongs to them and that Ukraine should obey their wishes.

If Ukraine wanted to be a sovereign nation, and make it's own decisions independent of Russia's feelings, this war could not be prevented.

Why do you think the Finns and the Swedes are now suddenly mulling over joining NATO? They know Russian intentions better than anyone.

The Ukraine as it exists on the map is a fabricated construction. It has no historical significance because it was cobbled together by the USSR without regard for tribal alliances once the regime fell.

 

[Fijimn]

Article 5 and to a lesser extent Article 4 of the NATO charter make is difficult to accept every requesting country.

 

[Finance85]

It's not a club. It's an organization that requires members to contribute and participate. There's also an expectation of unity when a member is threatened. German reliance on Russian energy has been a problem in the Ukraine situation. The US can't be expected to carry the military and financial load for more countries.

 

[Big Hawk D-Port]

Their perspective is that Ukraine belongs to them and that Ukraine should obey their wishes.

If Ukraine wanted to be a sovereign nation, and make it's own decisions independent of Russia's feelings, this war could not be prevented.

Why do you think the Finns and the Swedes are now suddenly mulling over joining NATO? They know Russian intentions better than anyone.

We can agree that Russia wanted to exert their influence over Ukraine. I don’t believe Putin wanted to swallow up Ukraine into Russia. I think they view the idea of Ukraine being in NATO as an existential threat, saw things moving that way, and felt they had to act. I don’t think NATO needs Ukraine, and it certainly isn’t worth what’s going on right now.

Russia views NATO as Washington’s tool to ally all of Europe against them. While we see NATO as peaceful, Russia views it as hostile.

We missed an opportunity when USSR fell to bring Russia into the community of European nations, IMO. It’s a shame.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

We can agree that Russia wanted to exert their influence over Ukraine. I don’t believe Putin wanted to swallow up Ukraine into Russia. I think they view the idea of Ukraine being in NATO as an existential threat, saw things moving that way, and felt they had to act. I don’t think NATO needs Ukraine, and it certainly isn’t worth what’s going on right now.

Russia views NATO as Washington’s tool to ally all of Europe against them. While we see NATO as peaceful, Russia views it as hostile.

We missed an opportunity when USSR fell to bring Russia into the community of European nations, IMO. It’s a shame.

Exert their influence. . . more like bully.

NATO doesn't need Ukraine but NATO should be an organization which defends democratic nations from attack.

To me the morality of this whole situation should be extremely clear. Ukraine wanted to be sovereign and Russia just couldn't allow that.