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NATO membership for new nations

It's not a club. It's an organization that requires members to contribute and participate. There's also an expectation of unity when a member is threatened. German reliance on Russian energy has been a problem in the Ukraine situation. The US can't be expected to carry the military and financial load for more countries.

You know we like to think of ourselves as "carrying the load" for NATO and don't get me wrong we do carry a brunt of the load because of our size.

But combined other NATO nations dramatically increase the size of the conventional military forces in NATO.


For example the next 7 NATO nations combined have more total military personnel than the US. So the US isn't even providing half of NATO's military might.

NATO isn't all the US defending other nations. It's a united front against aggression.
 
The real benefit of NATO is to force European wealthy nations into having skin in the game.

Let's face it...no matter what might happen, the US is carrying most of the water. Everyone knows it, the US knows it. However, putting real skin in the game from UK, France, Germany, etc in theory keeps them aligned with US interests, even if the US is going to carry the load.

The US has every right to have been critical of NATO in recent years, but it's not as simplistic as "we're paying the most, they need to pay their fair share." The issue is much more what some NATO countries have been doing empowering Russia and China.

The entire situation with Germany and Russia is a perfect example of the point. Theoretically NATO countries should not be empowering and enriching and appeasing a bad actor like Russia. But Germany has been double dipping, relying on the US for defense if shit ever hit the fan, and empowering Russia for the sake of gas. That should be a no go, and that's where the US is right to be tougher with NATO than we have been. No other country is going to have skin in the game like the US in terms of live and treasure, it's not going to happen, but they SHOULD have skin in the game other ways, like producing their own energy to isolate threat states.

I'm hopeful that this Ukraine adventure has been a come to Jesus moment as far as this goes, and the consequences of not being aligned on the posture toward evil regimes.

As far as who should be allowed to join...it needs to be looked at through that lens. In theory, I'm come one come all, but I think we need to very carefully evaluate whether they can be counted on. For example, I'm all for Ukraine in this war, but given the history there, the Russian influence, etc, to me before the war they would have been very far away from being an acceptable add. There is a reason why Putin thought the Russians would be welcomed with bread and flowers. You can't add anyone that is less than 100% committed to the ideals of Western-style democracy and alignment with the West. You can't add anyone that you worry about undermining you.

Ironically, I'm much more open to adding Ukraine (not going to happen) after this war than prior. They've proven where they stand vis a vis Russian, with blood.
 
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Exert their influence. . . more like bully.

NATO doesn't need Ukraine but NATO should be an organization which defends democratic nations from attack.

To me the morality of this whole situation should be extremely clear. Ukraine wanted to be sovereign and Russia just couldn't allow that.
We are all pulling for Ukraine to win. We are getting ready to send another $33B over there. Sure wish it hadn’t gotten to this point.
 
What had NATO done to indicate they were planning an invasion of Russia?
NATO’s reason for existence is as a bulwark against the USSR. I don’t think NATO was going to invade Russia, but I’m not Putin. He was probably wondering why we kept inviting all of Europe to join our “we hate Russia” club.
 
He was probably wondering why we kept inviting all of Europe to join our “we hate Russia” club.

Russia has nowhere to look but in the mirror when it comes to that. Their people and government reaped the benefits of being part of the victorious allies during WW2. They faced no repercussions for their actions and it shows today. The best case scenario would have been the Soviet/Nazi regimes destroying each other but that unfortunately wasn't the case.
 
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That is how it is over most of the globe, sadly. The point is not that Putin is a good dude, because clearly he is not. The point is that more respect to Russias point of view could have prevented this terrible war.
Oh you mean the point of view that Ukraine shouldn’t exist?

 
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I’m for keeping it exclusive. It makes me feel better knowing I’m part of something exclusive.
 
We demand nudes from Sweden and Finland.
Tell’em we’re casting…

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We can agree that Russia wanted to exert their influence over Ukraine. I don’t believe Putin wanted to swallow up Ukraine into Russia. I think they view the idea of Ukraine being in NATO as an existential threat, saw things moving that way, and felt they had to act. I don’t think NATO needs Ukraine, and it certainly isn’t worth what’s going on right now.

Russia views NATO as Washington’s tool to ally all of Europe against them. While we see NATO as peaceful, Russia views it as hostile.

We missed an opportunity when USSR fell to bring Russia into the community of European nations, IMO. It’s a shame.
Talk like this will get you on lists.
 
The Ukraine as it exists on the map is a fabricated construction. It has no historical significance because it was cobbled together by the USSR without regard for tribal alliances once the regime fell.

That's true about every country on Earth. Except perhaps Japan and other island nations.
 
NATO’s reason for existence is as a bulwark against the USSR. I don’t think NATO was going to invade Russia, but I’m not Putin. He was probably wondering why we kept inviting all of Europe to join our “we hate Russia” club.
Well, NATO can't be held responsible for Putin being a fuggin idiot.
 
That's true about every country on Earth. Except perhaps Japan and other island nations.
And the continued insistence to ignore these factors will ensure that problems like these arise again and again. I mean, it's been 100 years of bloodshed in the Middle East because the French and British decided they were going to play map makers after WW1.
 
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Sure they can. Quit sending overtures to Russia's border countries and this all goes away.
Or, Russia could quit lying and pointlessly invading their neighbors so there would be no reason to need a mutual defense treaty.

You are using the same kind of reasoning the abusive husband uses when blaming his wife for having to punch her in the face 10 times. Nice.
 
Or, Russia could quit lying and pointlessly invading their neighbors so there would be no reason to need a mutual defense treaty.

You are using the same kind of reasoning the abusive husband uses when blaming his wife for having to punch her in the face 10 times. Nice.
Every one of Russia's stated aims for conducting this SMO is backed up by verifiable evidence. The fact that you've decided that Ukraine are the good guys is simply evidence that you don't have the ability to think.
 
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Too many mutual defense pacts is what got WW1 going. Once mobilization started across Europe it was too late to stop it.

No, we shouldn't enter into a defense treaty with every country that wants one, unless you are prepared to send your own kids over there to die for them. There has to be something in it for us, and even entering into treaties with some countries can be viewed as an act of aggression by our enemies.

How would we react if China entered into defense treaties with Mexico and Central and South American countries? We'd tell them to get the F out of our backyard. Yes, I am aware they currently are messing around in the Americas, and we should be telling them to get the F out and be treating them like the enemy state that they are.

And the bold part is what I've been saying for years. People like to virtue signal with Ukraine flags on Facebook or rounding up their restaurant bill to the next dollar for some relief fund but those same people would never offer up their kids to fight in this or any other war on Russia's doorstep.

Heck, Ukraine has even asked for foreign volunteers to come over there and fight. Not one HROTer has answered the call.

So the same people that won't offer up themselves or their sons and daughters, support NATO expansion into the former USSR and Eastern Bloc. It's easier for them to send others to fulfill their ambitions.
 
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And the bold part is what I've been saying for years. People like to virtue signal with Ukraine flags on Facebook or rounding up their restaurant bill to the next dollar for some relief fund but those same people would never offer up their kids to fight in this or any other war on Russia's doorstep.

Heck, Ukraine has even asked for foreign volunteers to come over there and fight. Not one HROTer has answered the call.

So the same people that won't offer up themselves or their sons and daughters, support NATO expansion into the former USSR and Eastern Bloc. It's easier for them to send others to fulfill their ambitions.

I don't think we should have boots on the ground in Ukraine.

That might change, but right now the Ukrainians are holding their own. No reason to escalate.
 
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Every one of Russia's stated aims for conducting this SMO is backed up by verifiable evidence. The fact that you've decided that Ukraine are the good guys is simply evidence that you don't have the ability to think.
It takes a real special type of person to repeatedly come on these boards and kick yourself in the balls with comments like this. Seriously, is your skill set so pathetically bad the only job you can do is produce bullshit on the internet? Likely bullshit that has been pre-made for you so you can just copy and paste it?

The sad thing is, being a paid propagandist out of Russia is actually the best option I could come up with for your motivations for this.
 
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Countries like Germany need to realize that their prior pacifist mindset is no longer viable. There’s a time and place for that but to ensure further peace, they need to act now
True but that “pacifist” mindset was kind of instilled in them after being the main protagonist in 2 world wars.

Takes a bit to change that….increasing defense spending is a good start.
 
No m
It takes a real special type of person to repeatedly come on these boards and kick yourself in the balls with comments like this. Seriously, is your skill set so pathetically bad the only job you can do is produce bullshit on the internet? Likely bullshit that has been pre-made for you so you can just copy and paste it?

The sad thing is, being a paid propagandist out of Russia is actually the best option I could come up with for your motivations for this.
No more "special" than, someone who let's others do their thinking for them.
 
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No m

No more "special" than, someone who let's others do their thinking for them.
This is special coming from someone who has been duped into believing man was created from dirt. Thinking is not your strong suit. In fact it's not a suit at all.
 
No m

No more "special" than, someone who let's others do their thinking for them.
So why do you do that then? It's clear who the freer thinker here is and it's not the guy who doesn't change his screen name every 3 months.
 
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