Interesting article on Flo by Andy Hamilton discussing the possibility of a Dual Championship. Personally I love crowning a team champion at the individual tournament, but I would also love to see a true Dual Championship as well. Can't go wrong with even more high level wrestling, right?
NCAA Dual Championship?
- Thread starter sstark46
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It would be great if they had both. Why not?
This part made great sense to me. The season largely consists of duals, but what do they really mean?
This part made great sense to me. The season largely consists of duals, but what do they really mean?
One of college wrestling’s oddities is that dual meets occupy the majority of the real estate on the season calendar, yet those team outcomes are largely irrelevant once the postseason begins each March. In fact, three of the sport’s prominent conferences don’t even recognize a dual meet champion or list league dual standings on their websites.
It stands to reason that the regular-season stakes would be raised and the spotlight on duals would shine brighter if they counted toward qualifying and positioning for a national dual championship.
Every "dual championship" they've tried since the demise of CKND has been increasingly worse. I'm ok without such an event.
Always a worry about guys getting hurt before the individual tournament
I really wish there would be a dual component to the national title, but it seems really hard to pull off. Two separate titles means one is not really going to count. Best option I can think is a hybrid where the individual tournament team points count for some amount and a dual tournament decides the rest, or vice versa. Not sure which should be first or how it would work. That's the best I can think of, and it still pretty much sucks. I love duals and it's such a bummer that they are basically irrelevant beyond the immediate entertainment value and seeding.
Based on the article, seems tennis is doing a team title in fall and individual tournament in Spring. Perhaps wrestling adopts something similar so the timeframe is large enough between so that the injury worry is alleviated.
Fall could be the dual component of the sport, culminating in a team champ, and then spring could be the individual tournament component of the sport, also culminating in a team champ.
We call dual meets irrevelavant, but they are what teams and guys use to prepare for the National Tourney. They may be irrelevant in terms of giving someone a title or a trophy, but the whole point of wrestling is for the individual to be his best at the end of the year.
A dual tourney isn't the best route for that to happen. That is why it fails every time it is tried. The dual meets can be exciting, but no individual wrestler is using it to gauge their success. The NCAA tourney finish is how they gauge the success or failure of reaching their goal(s).
That is true only because, at the DI level, wrestling is almost solely an Individual focus with a slight team by-product. There is no rational argument that says a tournament of 33 guys per weight is the best format to determine the best "team". It is simply just the best format to crown the "best" team during such a tournament.
Now, I get that it is actually an Individual sport and there SHOULD BE a major focus on the individual tournament. However, it is ALSO a team sport. You are getting a scholarship and even NIL funds now to wrestle for that team.
How ALL 10 weights do, SHOULD matter. Under the current format a team with 3 #1 wrestlers has a substantially better chance to win than a team with 10 #10 ranked wrestlers(Without bonus, wrestling to seed the 3 #1s would score 60 points without needing 1 point from their other 7, while the 10 #10's would only score 25). However, in a dual, even with 3 pins, they would still lose 21-18 if the 7 other #10's win.
Now, I get why it is so much easier to do at the High School level than at the College level. The logistics with travel across the country and the already ingrained in concrete mentality to peak for 1 weekend in March, make for a nearly immovable mindset for many. But, I will say the energy at the Team Tournament in Michigan is considerably higher than at the Individual Tournament and the attendance is considerably better.
Finally, I would argue strongly that your argument about an individual gauging his success only accounts for 10-15% of all wrestlers. Only the ELITE or near elite are solely going to gauge success or failure based on that one tournament. The other 85-90% would love to be that 45th ranked guy that didn't get pinned against the #3 ranked guy to help the team win a Team Title. Hell, they would love to be the 32nd ranked guy and upset the #20 to help the team win vs. barely qualifying for NCAA's and go 0-2 or 1-2...
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I don't think this is the case. The individual title is the most important to a wrestler, but that doesn't make the team title not count. I think it will actually be an incentive. "Hey, our team barely lost the traditional NCAA title, but we can win the NCAA Dual team title. Let's be the best team." If the NCAA makes it a real championship, teams will fight for it.
I think so too, but with a caveat - if the dual championship and the individual championship are close together in the calendar, I think most teams and wrestlers would prioritize the individual one over the dual one.
But having them separated long enough, I think both would be covered in their own ways
If I just won a national championship would I want to wrestle again in two weeks? Probably not. Don't be surprised if teams send out their B squad.
Isn't this the same for many other sports like Track & Field, Cross Country, Gymnastics, Golf, Tennis, etc. Are any of those sports dissatisfied and clamoring for a dual championship?
Don’t like the idea of a dual championship. Smaller programs will never have a chance to get any publicity. With the individual tourney, a small school can at least get some cred with an AA here and there.
Which will get schools like Rider, South Dakota State, Northern Colorado, and Princeton more traction? Getting thumped in the first round of a Duals Tournament or having Dellavecchia, Sloan, Alirez, and Glory finishing first or second in the current Championships? Even getting an AA for a small program carries a lot of weight with recruiting. Getting squashed like a bug in the first round of a dual tournament, not so much. Actually, not even being invited to the dual tournament is the most likely scenario for small programs.
Anything that takes away from the current national tournament will hurt everyone but the select few top dogs. The NCAA should be focused on helping the small programs, not running them off.
This argument makes NO SENSE. No one is saying to change ANYTHING about the Individual Tournament except for the Team Title. Your small school AA will still get the exact same notice for his school. Making his team take 37th at that tournament instead of 61st wouldn't be what gets him and the school noticed anyway...
Give out 2 national titles like indoor and outdoor track, like sand volleyball and regular volleyball. Have a Fall dual national championship and a Spring tournament national championships. This use to work back in the day. I don't see why it can't work today.
make wrestling more of a financial burden on schools
you don't see why this wouldn't work today?
Why would it be more of a financial burden? You could easily rework schedules, without scheduling any additional competition dates, to accomodate the format...
In fact, you could actually make it cost less if you have dates reserved for something like a qualifier, regional and then finals. If they don't qualify they wouldn't even have to attend the subsequent events.
In fact, you could actually make it cost less if you have dates reserved for something like a qualifier, regional and then finals. If they don't qualify they wouldn't even have to attend the subsequent events.
This argument also makes no sense. You are more likely to get injured in practice than in competition. Even then, why would you be more up to getting injured when you are at your best in conditioning?
Also, remember, guys used to take Midlands as serious as NCAA's. Everyone was doing their best to "peak" at that time of the year too. I don't remember any arguments against that for "injury" reasons back then...
It will make a huge difference for those outside of the top few that are always fighting for to finish in the top ten like Northwestern, Minnesota, Lehigh, Rutgers, etc.
Are there any other sports that crown their championship by some combined dual tourney and individual tourney? Honestly, flipping a coin to choose between FS & Greco for the NCAA makes more sense to me than this.
I am not advocating for "some combined dual tourney and individual tourney" crowning a championship team. I am advocating for a dual tournament deciding the team and the Individual Tournament staying the exact same, other than the team component. Every single thing would stay the same other than the match points determining anything for anyone other than the actual individual on the mat.
To me, this frees up the wrestler to SOLELY wrestle for HIS goals during the individual portion and to SOLELY wrestle for the TEAM'S goals during the dual portion...
I don't want a "combined" title; these would be wholly separate things. A dual team champ, and then an individual tournament that crowns the individual champs as well as a team title
The MAJOR problem with that is the NCAA has vehemently opposed two events crowning a team title. They would only endorse 1. To make it work, the Dual Tournament would have to decide the NCAA Team Title. Meanwhile, I guess you could have something like the NWCA Team Title for the Individual Tournament...
I was under the impression from the article that Tennis would crown both and that was the way in for wrestling to potentially crown both. But I guess re-reading it, it doesn't explicitly state that. Does anyone know if tennis crowns a team title for the individual tournament?
Again, this would hurt every school other than the very top few. The Lehighs & Rutgers will never have a chance of breaking the top ten. And even schools like Mizzou and NCState who are frequently in the top ten now, may no longer finish top ten.
Indoor and Outdoor are counted as two separate sports, as are the volleyballs. We're already behind the eight-ball a lot when it comes to gender equity issues with wrestling at the Division I level, making our sport "count twice" with the same athletes is a non-starter. Just the same as the NCAA giving out two championships in the same sport. Indoor and Outdoor track are different seasons with different events, which is how they get two championships - their single hurdler, though - counts as two athletic opportunities for compliance.
I'm confused...if I'm not mistaken, there were guys who were on the UC Davis roster both when Derek Moore won OW at the NCAA Championships and when the program was dropped. Lots of good Moore's national championship and OW did for that program...
If a school wants to shut down the program, they will shut down the program regardless of how much good press they receive. That's still not a reason to switch to a dual championship or a blended championship that will do nothing but hurt small programs that are committed to keeping their programs.
I am sorry, but you are trully disillusioned. Why do you think the current format helps small schools better than giving them a chance to compete in a dual format? Mind you, the Individual Tournamen STILL would stay the exact same. The ONLY difference is it doesn't determine the Team Title. The wrestlers would still qualify the exact same way and wrestle the exact same way.
In fact, the dual component would ADD another chance for them to gain some notoriety. Maybe the #32 team in the country makes it to the quarterfinals. Hell, maybe a 50ish ranked team wins a dual....
Also, to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, the current format IN NO WAY gives small programs a chance to even BEGIN to be competitive. They are still almost certainly finishing in the bottom 3rd with 1 or 2 qualifiers and even if 1 of those AA they are almost certainly still outside the top 20...
I guess that we are equally disillusioned if you honestly think that there will be a dual tournament where the #32 or #50 ranked teams actually get invited.
It depends on if it ever picks up steam or not. Mind you, I don't think it will. But, that doesn't mean I don't think it would help DI wrestling overall. I just know that many coaches seriously oppose change. This sport has never been very open minded.
I will say, there are sooooo many ways to make this work if it had unanimous support. Hell, you could even create tiers so that the lesser competitive schools could have a "N.I.T" type tournament.
I don’t see the point. Wrestling now has an individual tournament with a team complement. It’s obviously an individual sport, similar to weight sports.
Which also have a similar team component. Powerlifting had a system where you get team points based on your placing . Up to ten individuals could be on the “team” but others could lift as individuals.
So the psu barbell club could have all of its members lift but the highest ranked would be picked to be team members. If I’m not mistaken tri could be in the same weight class.
And similar to lifting we know the results when the meet is done.
I get that you love analogies involving your personal life, but this post makes absolutely NO sense. It made me grab this special movie moment for you:
Maybe it's my raisin' in the mitten state, but I agree with MSU158.
A primer on the Michigan state tournament system may be in order. This format has largely been in place for the last 30 years (my memory begins in about 1994) and it goes as follows:
Normal mixed weekday/weekend season schedule until mid January.
Week 1 of post-season is a 4-team district dual playoff on the weekday (wed or thur) where 1 team winner advances.
The following saturday is a ~16 team saturday individual tournament where top 4 individual placewinners advance.
Week 2 is a 4 team regional playoff where winner advances to team state. The following saturday is individual regionals where an 8-man bracket is wrestled with the top 4 advancing to individual state. (and where a little bit of my soul dies every year)
Week 3 is Team state where 8 teams from each of the 4 divisions qualify into a single elimination playoff where the team title is won.
Week 4 is Individual State where a 16 man bracket is wrestled to 8 places in each of the 4 school divisions. No team score is kept.
The district and regional arrangements are drawn up before the season begins, and they are usually slightly different every year with most historically strong teams separated. There exists the ability for most teams to win a district title every few years with stronger teams able to occasionally win a regional title/qualify for state. It creates some pretty good excitement for the school.
In addition, it gives a small team/school the ability to follow an individual to the individual finals, etc.
I'm not saying Michigan is perfect, and it certainly doesn't have the fervor if the Iowa tournament. I lived in Iowa briefly and was pleasantly surprised at how "manistream" wrestling was in my little town compared to Western MI where I grew up an still live.
I don't see why it's not feasible for the D1 landscape with some similar arrangement. Qualification for each level of the team arrangement could be done from variable district or sub-conference alignments. A 64-team bracket with a few pre-district matches could make for every team in a playoff with the culmination being a 2 day 8 or 16 team tournament.
The qualification for the individual tournament could be largely left alone.
A primer on the Michigan state tournament system may be in order. This format has largely been in place for the last 30 years (my memory begins in about 1994) and it goes as follows:
Normal mixed weekday/weekend season schedule until mid January.
Week 1 of post-season is a 4-team district dual playoff on the weekday (wed or thur) where 1 team winner advances.
The following saturday is a ~16 team saturday individual tournament where top 4 individual placewinners advance.
Week 2 is a 4 team regional playoff where winner advances to team state. The following saturday is individual regionals where an 8-man bracket is wrestled with the top 4 advancing to individual state. (and where a little bit of my soul dies every year)
Week 3 is Team state where 8 teams from each of the 4 divisions qualify into a single elimination playoff where the team title is won.
Week 4 is Individual State where a 16 man bracket is wrestled to 8 places in each of the 4 school divisions. No team score is kept.
The district and regional arrangements are drawn up before the season begins, and they are usually slightly different every year with most historically strong teams separated. There exists the ability for most teams to win a district title every few years with stronger teams able to occasionally win a regional title/qualify for state. It creates some pretty good excitement for the school.
In addition, it gives a small team/school the ability to follow an individual to the individual finals, etc.
I'm not saying Michigan is perfect, and it certainly doesn't have the fervor if the Iowa tournament. I lived in Iowa briefly and was pleasantly surprised at how "manistream" wrestling was in my little town compared to Western MI where I grew up an still live.
I don't see why it's not feasible for the D1 landscape with some similar arrangement. Qualification for each level of the team arrangement could be done from variable district or sub-conference alignments. A 64-team bracket with a few pre-district matches could make for every team in a playoff with the culmination being a 2 day 8 or 16 team tournament.
The qualification for the individual tournament could be largely left alone.
Having a dual tournament would make it more exciting from a fans perspective.
I’d be all in for conference’s holding dual tournaments and the top 2 would advance to a final.
The major factor not being accounted for is all of the ducking of matches which takes place today, coaches don’t want their wrestlers to be exposed to losing their national seed. Somehow this problem would have to be addressed, or it wouldn’t be worth having a dual tournament.
I’d be all in for conference’s holding dual tournaments and the top 2 would advance to a final.
The major factor not being accounted for is all of the ducking of matches which takes place today, coaches don’t want their wrestlers to be exposed to losing their national seed. Somehow this problem would have to be addressed, or it wouldn’t be worth having a dual tournament.
Coaches wouldn’t do that anymore if it were only for Individual results(as long as they were healthy). Hell, protecting seeds was more about a better chance at bonus points in early matches. A NCAA sanctioned national dual tournament would almost certainly minimize ducking. Nothing short of a direct rule against it would stop it completely, but this sure wouldn’t hurt.
