NCAA tournament scoring

[DonHawkeye]

Does anyone have the different scoring systems over the years?

I know they increased placement points in the 2000s

I also think there have been times when they treated pigtails/ byes differently

And before the 90s I have no idea if they did anything different.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Starti

Does anyone have the different scoring systems over the years?

I know they increased placement points in the 2000s

I also think there have been times when they treated pigtails/ byes differently

And before the 90s I have no idea if they did anything different.

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/NCAA Bout Scoring.pdf

Starts on page 3 and has every change through the 2001 change to placement points. I need to go back and figure out the pigtails/byes thing as I seem to remember they have gone back and forth with treating the pigtails as true pigtails or treating them as a first round with a lot of byes, but I can't remember the specific years.

 

[DonHawkeye]

I would like to normalize all the NCAA scores to the current model and get the top 10 scores. At least since they have been placing 8.

I thought of this when I see people throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" talk with this PSU team.

People have short memories.

You have a OSU team with 5 Champs and 7 AAs. You have a Iowa team that had 5 champs and 8 AAs. I think there is a decent chance this PSU lineup ends up only with 1 or 2. You have at least a couple Iowa teams with multiple champs and 9 AAs.

I don't think PSU team will be the best PSU team in the last 6 years.

 

[OkieSpladle]

I would like to normalize all the NCAA scores to the current model and get the top 10 scores. At least since they have been placing 8.

I thought of this when I see people throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" talk with this PSU team.

People have short memories.

You have a OSU team with 5 Champs and 7 AAs. You have a Iowa team that had 5 champs and 8 AAs. I think there is a decent chance this PSU lineup ends up only with 1 or 2. You have at least a couple Iowa teams with multiple champs and 9 AAs.

I don't think PSU team will be the best PSU team in the last 6 years.

I may be able to help there (and is something I've been meaning to do). I'll post it back here when I remember to do it. I agree about the current PSU team. They have had 5 in the finals before. They are good, and could be historically good if they over-perform at NCAAs, but if they just wrestle to seed I don't think they will be up there with the best ever.

 

[MSU158]

As far as the bye scoring goes, they revamped it starting the 2014 NCAA Tournament. To offset the advantage of the pigtail match they formerly made the first round advancement be worth 2 points instead of 1 for every other wrestler and 1 point in the first consolation round instead of .5. This has since been eliminated. You now have a distinct scoring advantage(albeit a disadvantage of having to wrestle 1 more match) if you have a pigtail match.

Essentially maximum scoring without a pigtail used to be 31 individual points: 16-1st pts+10 bonus points(5pins x 2pts)+5 advancement points(2,1,1,1)=31. Now the first round is worth 1 advancement point and the max total is 30.

In the case of a pigtail, you can get an extra advancement point plus extra bonus points(the bonus points in a pigtail are guaranteed regardless if the wrestler loses his next match) if you win the next match. So, technically, you can score 33 points with 6 pins!

 

[LaxHawk174]

Not sure if anybody is looking for this but I went back on trackwrestling and averaged the team points scored by each AA (All 1st, all 2nds, etc..) from the 2013, 2014, and 2015 NCAAs. Its probably too small of a sample size to get a 'true' average, but it might give an idea. I rounded up to the nearest .5 for points (6.74 = 6.5 ..... 6.76=7)

Place---2015---2014---2013---Average.
1st---24---23---23 --- Avg = 23.5
2nd---18---18.5---18.5 --- Avg = 18.5
3rd---16.5---16.5---16 --- Avg = 16.5
4th---14---14---14.5 --- Avg = 14
5th---12---11.5---11.5 --- Avg = 11.5
6th---10---9.5---11.5 --- Avg = 10.5
7th---8.5---7.5---9 --- Avg = 8.5
8th---6---7---7 --- Avg = 6.5

Obviously this is not a perfect system, as there have been outliers who have bonused their way to AA finishes on the backside, or the DT who scored more points as a runner up than Dake did as the champ. But its something.

 

[dicemen99]

I would like to normalize all the NCAA scores to the current model and get the top 10 scores. At least since they have been placing 8.

I thought of this when I see people throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" talk with this PSU team.

People have short memories.

You have a OSU team with 5 Champs and 7 AAs. You have a Iowa team that had 5 champs and 8 AAs. I think there is a decent chance this PSU lineup ends up only with 1 or 2. You have at least a couple Iowa teams with multiple champs and 9 AAs.

I don't think PSU team will be the best PSU team in the last 6 years.

I can see your argument with the PSU in the last 6 years. The 2012 PSU team with 5 finalists, 3 champs and a 3rd will be difficult to top for this team and probably only can be equaled - with a great performance in NYC. I would hope that you don't think this team will do that as a Hawkeye fan because 140+ points would definitely take the title this year.

People throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" for this year's team??? I go to a lot of boards and have yet to see that posted - and it's a ridiculous statement. I have seen some conjecture on some future lineups that include Spencer Lee, Suriano, Hall & the young guys about Best Lineup Ever - and that is the kind of fan stuff that you see on this board also about Iowa. I have yet to see a PSU fan post that stuff over here.

 

[MSU158]

Lax,

I would say that is a pretty fair sample size, especially since they change the scoring from 2014 on. I do a pricey bet with my brother every year since 2003, where we started out picking 4 guys in each weight(we keep them for as long as they are eligible so there are some years we have more than 4 at a weight if guys move around) and use their NCAA tournament scoring. So out of roughly 40 wrestlers(we would always pick before the conference tournaments so we would always lose a couple that didn't qualify-damn you Henning!) we would combine all their tournament scores and decide the winner. (I am 9-4!)

As a result, I am very familiar with tournament scoring and what to expect for scoring at each placement. Really knowing these numbers is key to truly assessing which teams have a solid chance to win it all in March. Many simply go by the eye test and not the hard numbers. That is why I have been fighting with the PSU faithful so much. By the numbers, they are very solid but not unbeatable. Iowa and OkState definitely have the potential to score 100+ and PSU is NOT a lock to do so.

 

[OkieSpladle]

As far as the bye scoring goes, they revamped it starting the 2014 NCAA Tournament. To offset the advantage of the pigtail match they formerly made the first round advancement be worth 2 points instead of 1 for every other wrestler and 1 point in the first consolation round instead of .5. This has since been eliminated. You now have a distinct scoring advantage(albeit a disadvantage of having to wrestle 1 more match) if you have a pigtail match.

Essentially maximum scoring without a pigtail used to be 31 individual points: 16-1st pts+10 bonus points(5pins x 2pts)+5 advancement points(2,1,1,1)=31. Now the first round is worth 1 advancement point and the max total is 30.

In the case of a pigtail, you can get an extra advancement point plus extra bonus points(the bonus points in a pigtail are guaranteed regardless if the wrestler loses his next match) if you win the next match. So, technically, you can score 33 points with 6 pins!

MSU,

There is some important context here that you may or may not be aware of. First, any round where less than half of the wrestlers in a tournament have a match (more byes than not) does not, by rule, score advancement. This is codified in the high school rules but, obviously, the NCAA can score their tournament however they want. Under those rules (scoring the pigtails correctly with no advancement, bonus only) there was an advantage to having a pigtail, but it was mitigated somewhat by having to wrestle twice in session 1. This was an even bigger disadvantage for lower weights as they would usually have to get worked back in after the 45 minute rule was satisfied.

Because of the possible advantage (I remember Flores from American had two falls in session 1 one year), it was changed as you mentioned, but there is one detail that is somewhat insignificant in practice that should be noted for clarity. The advancement for the first full round (which is now the second round officially) is still 1 point. The other point is scored for the bye round, but is only awarded with a win in the round after the bye.

All of this is really academic now because no seeded wrestlers are drawn into pigtails since the change to 16 seeded wrestlers. I suspect that is why they changed it back.

 

[DonHawkeye]

I think Iowa can score 140+ this year. We have title contenders at 125,133,149,174,184,197 and a chance for 9 AAs. This team is going through the season really getting no love from the media. They have went undefeated and won Midlands. They blew out the attendance record. They have really good talent at 9 of 10 weights.

They don't have a proven Metcalf,Taylor,Ruth, Stieber... in the lineup but until their guys actually win a title neither does PSU.

We may look back at this PSU team and be in awe of their credentials when it is all said and done, but I kinda want to see them prove it at nationals before I crown them anything.

 

[McCulloughd]

I think Iowa can score 140+ this year. We have title contenders at 125,133,149,174,184,197 and a chance for 9 AAs. This team is going through the season really getting no love from the media. They have went undefeated and won Midlands. They blew out the attendance record. They have really good talent at 9 of 10 weights.

They don't have a proven Metcalf,Taylor,Ruth, Stieber... in the lineup but until their guys actually win a title neither does PSU.

We may look back at this PSU team and be in awe of their credentials when it is all said and done, but I kinda want to see them prove it at nationals before I crown them anything.

109 points

 

[RoarLions1]

Starti

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/NCAA Bout Scoring.pdf

Starts on page 3 and has every change through the 2001 change to placement points. I need to go back and figure out the pigtails/byes thing as I seem to remember they have gone back and forth with treating the pigtails as true pigtails or treating them as a first round with a lot of byes, but I can't remember the specific years.

Excellent resource, courtesy of Jay Hammonds (RIP).

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I can see your argument with the PSU in the last 6 years. The 2012 PSU team with 5 finalists, 3 champs and a 3rd will be difficult to top for this team and probably only can be equaled - with a great performance in NYC. I would hope that you don't think this team will do that as a Hawkeye fan because 140+ points would definitely take the title this year.

People throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" for this year's team??? I go to a lot of boards and have yet to see that posted - and it's a ridiculous statement. I have seen some conjecture on some future lineups that include Spencer Lee, Suriano, Hall & the young guys about Best Lineup Ever - and that is the kind of fan stuff that you see on this board also about Iowa. I have yet to see a PSU fan post that stuff over here.

Really I still compare every recent/modern team to the Iowa team that steamrolled Omaha. I havent seen a recent champinoship lineup id take over that yet.

125. McD vs Nico - Mcd
133. Dennis vs Conoway - Dennis
141. Marion vs Gullibon - Marion
149 Metcalf vs Zain - Metcalf.
157. Jansen vs Nolf- Nolf
165. Morningstar vs Rasheed- Morningstar
174 Jaybo vs Nickal - Jaybo
184. Keddy vs McCutch - Keddy
197. Beatty vs MacIntosh- Mac
HWT Erekson vs nevills- Big Dan

Thats Iowa 8-2 in matches. Kind of puts it in prespective of possible PSU best team vs Iowa #15 best team all time. the best taylor ruth team fares a bit better but still falls short. If only that iowa team knew about offensive wrestling! Pretty good group of counter wrestlers!

 

[Annieat285]

I would like to normalize all the NCAA scores to the current model and get the top 10 scores. At least since they have been placing 8.

I thought of this when I see people throwing around "Best Lineup Ever" talk with this PSU team.

People have short memories.

You have a OSU team with 5 Champs and 7 AAs. You have a Iowa team that had 5 champs and 8 AAs. I think there is a decent chance this PSU lineup ends up only with 1 or 2. You have at least a couple Iowa teams with multiple champs and 9 AAs.

I don't think PSU team will be the best PSU team in the last 6 years.

The team in 2 years will be the best PSU team. Assuming they get Spencer it could feature...
Spencer Lee, Nick Suriano, Jered Cortez, Zain Retherford, Jason Nolf, Mark Hall, Bo Nickal, Nick Nevills and a scattering of whoever else they might pick up next year/Rasheed, Cassar etc. That's a line up with as many Top 3 recruits as other wrestlers.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Annieat. your assuming every top recruit pans out. Lets see Hall vs Marinelli or Mejia vs Suri in 2 year. You also assume Spencer is yours.

Your also assumes that Cortez is some finalist you just snagged. Far from it. Good wrestler but lost to Clark a few times and also Alber of UNI.

 

[Annieat285]

Annieat. your assuming every top recruit pans out. Lets see Hall vs Marinelli or Mejia vs Suri in 2 year. You also assume Spencer is yours.

Your also assumes that Cortez is some finalist you just snagged. Far from it. Good wrestler but lost to Clark a few times and also Alber of UNI.

Suriano is a monster already. He'll beat Mejia up and down today and all days after. Mark Hall hasn't lost to anyone domestically since Bo Nickal over a year ago. I'll take Mark vs anyone, even Marinelli. As far as Cortez goes, he's definately a very talented wrestler. You're judging him on his performance during a red shirt year spent in the Illinois room vs the product he will be next year after wrestling for PSU for a year. It's worth noting that people on HR shouldn't lecture as to assuming anyone is a shoe-in finalist despite prior lack of achievements.
Most importantly, where at any point did I compare any PSU wrestlers to Iowa guys in my initial post? I was merely commenting on the strength of the possible PSU lineup. Not once did I allude to the strength or weakness of the Iowa team.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Suriano is a monster already. He'll beat Mejia up and down today and all days after. Mark Hall hasn't lost to anyone domestically since Bo Nickal over a year ago. I'll take Mark vs anyone, even Marinelli. As far as Cortez goes, he's definately a very talented wrestler. You're judging him on his performance during a red shirt year spent in the Illinois room vs the product he will be next year after wrestling for PSU for a year. .

Just priceless. I just wish we could have gotten Grothus/ Cooper/ Rhoads in the PSU room so theyd be better right now. Maybe the Olympic Training center should be in Caels spare bedroom.

 

[Annieat285]

Just priceless. I just wish we could have gotten Grothus/ Cooper/ Rhoads in the PSU room so theyd be better right now. Maybe the Olympic Training center should be in Caels spare bedroom.

Grothus is already going to win OW this year, so I don't think you need to worry about that.

 

[LaxHawk174]

Using the point averages shown above, I'll make some projections for NCAAs this year. For fear of appearing 'Too optimistic' or 'homeristic' i'll temper my iowa expectations, and give reasonable, but not over the top PSU expectations.

Gilman - 1st 23.5
Clark - 3rd 16.5
Grothus - R12 2.5
Sorensen - 2nd 18.5
Cooper - R16 2
Rhoads - 1-2 1
Meyer - 8th 6.5
Brooks - 5th 11.5
Burak - 3rd 16.5
Stoll - 7th 8.5

Total = 107

I can see room for improvement with the hawks with Clark making the finals/winning, Grothus getting on the podium, Sorensen could beat Retherford, Cooper making the R12, Meyer and Brooks getting higher up on the podium, Burak crashing the finals party, and Stoll moving up a spot or two with the right bracket.

PSU
Megaludis 3rd 16.5
Conaway 6th 10.5
Gulibon R12 2.5
Retherford 1st 23.5
Nolf 1st 23.5
Rasheed R12 2.5
Nickal 2nd 18.5
McCutcheon 8th 6.5
McIntosh 2nd 18.5
Nevills R12 2.5

Total = 125

This has most of PSU guys maximizing their potential. Nico looks to be the same guy hes been since his freshman year. Conaway very well could not make the podium I view Garrett, Clark, Brewer, Richards, Taylor as above him, and hes about even with DiCamillo, some others could spoil his party. Retherford could lose to Sorensen, Nolf could lose to IMar, Rasheed could sneak on the podium, or not even make R12. Nickal could win it all, or not make the finals as he is a risk taker. McCutcheon could finish R12 and not AA, this weight is loaded. McIntosh could win it, or he could get upset prior to finals and finish 3/4. Nevills could sneak on the podium, but he hasn't wrestled a match this year and this is a very deep weight, don't think he'll have enough mat time to AA.

If you look at the bigger picture, the Hawks are right there, plenty of points left to be had by a few guys, but have to perform in March to take the title, we dont even necessarily have to rely on PSU guys getting upset, which is always a possibility, the NCAAs are wild every year. PSU guys have more to lose than to earn in these projections. They are the favorite no doubt, but not as invincible as they are made out to be.

 

[AFHawk86]

I'd like to see the Hawks top 100 before I get too excited. Could they perform to seed/ability? Yes. Have they performed to seed/ability in the past 5 years? No.

 

[McCulloughd]

Suriano is a monster already. He'll beat Mejia up and down today and all days after. Mark Hall hasn't lost to anyone domestically since Bo Nickal over a year ago. I'll take Mark vs anyone, even Marinelli. As far as Cortez goes, he's definately a very talented wrestler. You're judging him on his performance during a red shirt year spent in the Illinois room vs the product he will be next year after wrestling for PSU for a year. It's worth noting that people on HR shouldn't lecture as to assuming anyone is a shoe-in finalist despite prior lack of achievements.
Most importantly, where at any point did I compare any PSU wrestlers to Iowa guys in my initial post? I was merely commenting on the strength of the possible PSU lineup. Not once did I allude to the strength or weakness of the Iowa team.

Suriano's record was 229-4 which means that there are "four better monsters than him". I agree that he will be a great wrestler but he will get tired of being runner up to Justin. Just my opinion Annieat285.

 

[Stanley75]

Suriano is a monster already. He'll beat Mejia up and down today and all days after. Mark Hall hasn't lost to anyone domestically since Bo Nickal over a year ago. I'll take Mark vs anyone, even Marinelli. As far as Cortez goes, he's definately a very talented wrestler. You're judging him on his performance during a red shirt year spent in the Illinois room vs the product he will be next year after wrestling for PSU for a year. It's worth noting that people on HR shouldn't lecture as to assuming anyone is a shoe-in finalist despite prior lack of achievements.
Most importantly, where at any point did I compare any PSU wrestlers to Iowa guys in my initial post? I was merely commenting on the strength of the possible PSU lineup. Not once did I allude to the strength or weakness of the Iowa team.

Spencer goes to Iowa (I think he will), couple of injuries and injuries do happen. Then what?

 

[DonHawkeye]

Did anyone ever get this done?

Also was thinking what would be cool is if we had a list of #1,#2,#3 seeds that have went down 1st round.

It seems like that used to happen a lot more in the past.