I think we can all agree Frans recruiting for the most part has been ok to subpar but getting better. I like the guys he gets because you can see they will be solid after a couple seasons however thats a bit of a problem. Iowa is a team that doesn't get much typically from its FR class less so then a lot of other top 40 or so type teams but this year they are not getting much of anything from neither the FR class nor the SO class and that is killing the team against solid competition. A lot of teams like Iowa hell even the top teams count on 2 maybe 3 or 4 FR and SO every season to play big parts in their success. Hopefully the 2nd year players can pick things up quick this team needs them to.
Need more from the SO and FR classes
- Thread starter Auger
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The seniors need to step up. They have underwhelmed so far. The main reason so many other teams rely on FR or SO is because they have to due to graduation, etc. Iowa has the luxury of starting 4 seniors and a JR, who have a boat load of experience. They should be carrying the load with the others just playing complementary roles. Ellingson has done a nice job off the bench, and Uhl might begin to contribute more as the season moves along.
Your post does highlight a point I made this summer and one poster went ballistic. I said we need to temper expectations for the incoming freshman. If you read some of the recruiting "experts" on here you would have thought the incoming class was Iowa's version of the Mich Fab Five. I tried to warn others that some people were hyping these guys up way too much. They are freshman. They'll probably be good players, even solid contributors, it's just not likely to happen this year. Every fanbase thinks their incoming recruits are studs. They had these guys ticketed as replacing Jok and Clemons, and playing all kinds of minutes and scoring a bunch of points. It was laughable. This is the B1G, and Fran is going to go with experience because that's pretty darn valuable. They'll get their feet wet this year and be counted on much more next year when all these guys have graduated.
Your post does highlight a point I made this summer and one poster went ballistic. I said we need to temper expectations for the incoming freshman. If you read some of the recruiting "experts" on here you would have thought the incoming class was Iowa's version of the Mich Fab Five. I tried to warn others that some people were hyping these guys up way too much. They are freshman. They'll probably be good players, even solid contributors, it's just not likely to happen this year. Every fanbase thinks their incoming recruits are studs. They had these guys ticketed as replacing Jok and Clemons, and playing all kinds of minutes and scoring a bunch of points. It was laughable. This is the B1G, and Fran is going to go with experience because that's pretty darn valuable. They'll get their feet wet this year and be counted on much more next year when all these guys have graduated.
What's missing from this team?
I finally figured it out.
Gabe and Whitey.
I finally figured it out.
Gabe and Whitey.
This season has little to do with the freshman. They will not be much of a factor either way.
This thing is up to the upperclassmen.
Uhl is the one underclassmen who really needs to get his head out.
This thing is up to the upperclassmen.
Uhl is the one underclassmen who really needs to get his head out.
Jok back starting at the 2. AC off the bench, need more scoring and rebounding.
You HAVE to get some production from your bench. Seeing that our bench consists of underclassmen points toward needing solid minutes from the unders.
Rebounding, scoring and defense. Only 5 games into most of their careers, they must grow up faster to get the results we want. Problem is, they're underclassmen!
When Fran talked about this being his most unique team as far as class makeup goes, he wasn't kidding. A starting lineup filled with experience, complemented by a Who's Who of guys who've never played any meaningful minute of Big College Basketball. Uhl, and then everybody else.
And Uhl just started playing the game yesterday. He gets it, sometimes. But he's as lost as some of the freshmen at times, too.
If you want more from them, you'll get it. When that happens might not be answered until next year, although I think they'll get more consistent before this year is done.
Rebounding, scoring and defense. Only 5 games into most of their careers, they must grow up faster to get the results we want. Problem is, they're underclassmen!
When Fran talked about this being his most unique team as far as class makeup goes, he wasn't kidding. A starting lineup filled with experience, complemented by a Who's Who of guys who've never played any meaningful minute of Big College Basketball. Uhl, and then everybody else.
And Uhl just started playing the game yesterday. He gets it, sometimes. But he's as lost as some of the freshmen at times, too.
If you want more from them, you'll get it. When that happens might not be answered until next year, although I think they'll get more consistent before this year is done.
I think Baer is outplaying Uhl and needs more minutes. I also think this team lives and dies on its seniors. They all could be playing better.
Without Whitey, we don't have anyone that can get to line and convert--those are consistent points. I'm wondering if we don't need to go big and move Uthoff to 3 and go big. Our guards are not really impressive. Fran really needs to recruit some guards that can get to the rack and less 1 dimensional shooter types. Washpun for UNI is example of what we do not have.
I think Utoff and Jok are capable of making up some points at the line, but no one is ever going to be as good at that as Whitey. Would have been nice to have Washpun, but Gessel and Clemmons are capable if they play smarter and don't play hero ball. I like going taller with Jok playing the two, but I think his defense this year has taken a step back. Bottom line is we need better rebounding and defense, both of which are 90% effort.
When our bench is a bunch of 2nd and 1st year guys we need those guys to step up. You can't expect to win with just 6 guys. If it is going to take 3 years for a lot of our recruits to be B1G level players we are going to be an up and down team. A lot of B1G teams are getting good production from their SO and FR Iowa needs at least a couple to step up.
Gatens, Marble, and White all stepped up to the plate in
their freshman year. We need one reliable scoring threat
from the rookies. Currently, Ellingson after 5 games has
a 7.2 average while the rest of the frosh are 3.2 or lower.
their freshman year. We need one reliable scoring threat
from the rookies. Currently, Ellingson after 5 games has
a 7.2 average while the rest of the frosh are 3.2 or lower.
Uthoff needs to step it up and be a leader. If he doesn't do that, we aren't going to be very good.
Uthoff is not a leader. He just isn't. It's not his fault. Some people step up and fill that role naturally. He's not a natural leader and I'm not sure this team has a vocal, natural leader that the team will follow.
One of the players needs to punch Jok and tell him to get on board or find the bench. He's got a tremendous gift offensively, but is an immature and disengaged defender. This hurts even more when his gift to us is 3-15 shooting. Better defense might lead to easier buckets for him and everyone.
One of the players needs to punch Jok and tell him to get on board or find the bench. He's got a tremendous gift offensively, but is an immature and disengaged defender. This hurts even more when his gift to us is 3-15 shooting. Better defense might lead to easier buckets for him and everyone.
The half court offense in the first half did not click when Woody went out. Same for the defense. That said, others need to step up. The second team is still playing tentative on both ends. When the bench gets going Iowa will have less holes to dig out of and not let other teams go on so many runs.
Honestly, I don't think the second team is the problem, it's the starters. Baer and Ellingson have played pretty well off the bench. Uhl has not played well but you really only need 7-8 guys, and I think he'll start to play better. The problem has been the starters, especially on the defensive end. For guys who's played together as much as they have, their poor defensive rotations, etc is inexcusable. In the Dayton and ND games, the runs by those team came when the starter were on the floor, not the reserve. Both Dayton and ND came out of halftime and went on big runs with Iowa's starters on the floor. They dug a huge hole for themselves. Then Fran puts in some subs, like Ellingson and Iowa goes on a big run to get back into the game. The bench has been providing a spark, some energy, but the starters look like they'd rather be in the locker room playing video games. Fran should oblige them by benching guys who aren't busting their behinds.
Looked to me like starters played most of the minutes. Jok 3/13 and Gesell 5/15 are not going win you a lot of games. Iowa needs to shoot better and/or improve in rebounding/defense.
We look better when we win.
We are a handful of poor defensive possessions, missed front ends, etc., from the happy, happy, joy, joy talk prior to Orlando.
As to the newbies, surprisingly they aren't playing at the level of the experienced guys. My guess is that with experience they will play better.
Marquette, Dayton, Notre Dame, now Wichita State, we're in the midst of our own little Mini-NCAA Tournament.
We are a handful of poor defensive possessions, missed front ends, etc., from the happy, happy, joy, joy talk prior to Orlando.
As to the newbies, surprisingly they aren't playing at the level of the experienced guys. My guess is that with experience they will play better.
Marquette, Dayton, Notre Dame, now Wichita State, we're in the midst of our own little Mini-NCAA Tournament.
It's funny watching you ladies panic after a couple of close losses to ranked teams just a few days after you were slobbering over the team. It is a long season so you might as well enjoy the improvement that is bound to happen with this team. The future is bright. Maybe you should go watch UCLA and their NBA players or some Lick team. That sounds like fun.
This is the real issue IMO.
There's no natural leaders on this team and no one with any attitude or intensity, other than maybe Woody, just a bunch of quiet nice guys and space cases.
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Nobody says these guys need to play at the level of SR'S but it would be nice to have a couple underclassmen contribute strongly against good competition. You look at a lot of other B1G teams and they have FR and So's contributing against good competition. But then again they have recruited better than Iowa. Hell even Northwestern has been able to grab a couple guys each of the past two seasons that can play well against anybody. When you lose guys like White and Gabe you need some new guys to step up. Not everything can be put on the shoulders of 5-6 upperclassmen three of which who were never big scorers themselves.
I guess we'll have to disagree a bit here. I look at Jones and Ellingson and Dom Uhl and I see three guys who are:
45.2 mpg. 22.6 ppg. 7.2 rpg (which is too low) 52% FG. About 43% from 3. Their turnovers aren't terribly high. I mean, technically Jones is a Junior but he is new. Is it that they've had better games against easier teams? That's just a learning curve.
Folks can think what they want, and in fact I think most are being pretty realistic this year. I've only seen one can an assistant post so far.
Concerns about rebounding and defense are fair concerns, but I suspect McCaffery has noticed some work needs to be done there. (What is the U of I's policy on human sacrifice?)
Let's just hope we beat Wichita State tomorrow and then we can ask Gregg Marshall why is team lost three in the Tournament and what he's going to do now that he obviously can't coach basketball?
I guess we'll have to disagree a bit here. I look at Jones and Ellingson and Dom Uhl and I see three guys who are:
45.2 mpg. 22.6 ppg. 7.2 rpg (which is too low) 52% FG. About 43% from 3. Their turnovers aren't terribly high. I mean, technically Jones is a Junior but he is new. Is it that they've had better games against easier teams? That's just a learning curve.
Folks can think what they want, and in fact I think most are being pretty realistic this year. I've only seen one can an assistant post so far.
(What is the U of I's policy on human sacrifice?)
Let's just hope we beat Wichita State tomorrow and then we can ask Gregg Marshall why is team lost three in the Tournament and what he's going to do now that he obviously can't coach basketball?
I think we are saying the same thing you just might be a little sensitive about it. I'm saying this team needs more out of there underclassmen if its going to win against good teams. Guys like Uhl, Ellingson, Wagner, Baer, Fleming and Williams need to step up, at least two of them. 5 to 6 Jr's and Sr's can't do it all. I think most can agree the recruiting hasn't been great and Iowa can't afford to regress even a little if the recruiting is going to improve. Most teams in the country that stay consistent in making the tournament get quality production from some of their FR and SO during big non con games and conference games. You call it a learning curve but it's still Iowa needs production from these guys.
I'm not saying Iowa doesn't have things to work on. And I'm not really trying to argue your point. I just think that we are seeing the natural difficulty of bringing along the newbies when we have four seniors and Jok already taking up quite a few minutes. You mentioned other newbies around the league. Many of them are playing quite a few minutes simply because the minutes are there for them.
Let me ask this, Gesell, Jok, Clemmons, Uthoff and Woody, how many minutes do you think those five should get?
So are you saying there aren't minutes for our FR and SO? Only Uthoff should be getting over 30. Jok has too many D liabilities to get anymore then 25. Mike should get around 30. Woody is around 25 maybe more when he is hot. Ton of minutes out there this year.
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So I'll guess you have no problem with Clemmons getting some minutes as well? Let's say at least 20? That's 130 minutes for five guys. Seventy minutes left. We already saw that Uhl, Jones and Ellingson are getting about 45 of those. We saw the production and it didn't look too bad to me. That leaves us with 25 minutes to spread around between Baer, Wagner...and I presume the boat is still out on Williams and Fleming though only one saw the game today and it was but scant seconds.
I'm not seeing it. What production are you expecting from our newbies? Mistakes? Yes, they make 'em. So you want to play them more than guys who are performing better?
Again, if you can keep your red face calm a bit and quit assuming I'm deserving of a verbal punch to the nose, what point are you trying to make? Again, many of these newbies on other teams have no one taking minutes in front of them at all!
When a coach brings in the kind of numbers he did with this recruiting class and they all but one show up in summer you'd expect more production. Just the laws of averages. I'm very surprised one of them hasn't pushed for more minutes or Fran is being very conservative with making changes. 4 senior starters should equal a top 25 ranking and a strong start to the season. If it doesn't then changes need made with the lineup. Seniors have experience and if the experience doesn't equal wins then bring in youth and see how it does in the limelight.
I agree. I think this class in the long run will be a success however with as many guys as fran brought in with this one you would have to say on the short term it is a disappointment. Its hard to think we couldnt pull in one FR to help this team and give a solid 10-15 mins every game.
As far as the SR's go. I didnt expect big leaps from them. Mike and Woody arent the type of players to all of a sudden start scoring 15+ a game. Jok was the guy you would hope would pick up some of the offense that White left with but Jok has just been too inconsistent. Uthoff we figured could up his scoring which he has. So far nobody has been able to completely fill the Gabe role either. So far the team still has areas that need to be filled from the void White and Gabe left. They have been partially filled by the SR's and Baer and Ellingson but so far non have been fully filled and we havent really been able to create something new either to fill those rolls like a slightly different style.
Be patient, dude. We lost the 2nd leading scorer in Iowa history and the 6th man of the year. Who's gonna pluck 2 new guys to fill that void, besides elite recruiters?
Uhl, Baer, Ellingson and Jones are all getting 13-15 minutes a game and have been hit or miss, but have now gained experience they'd never had before. Each have shown the ability to be special and to be lost.
We're 4-2. I don't see a reason to panic. Someone is not seeing the floor as much now as he will by the end of the season. I don't know who, but it'll happen.
Uhl, Baer, Ellingson and Jones are all getting 13-15 minutes a game and have been hit or miss, but have now gained experience they'd never had before. Each have shown the ability to be special and to be lost.
We're 4-2. I don't see a reason to panic. Someone is not seeing the floor as much now as he will by the end of the season. I don't know who, but it'll happen.
Whoa not panicking. Merely said Iowa needs to get more out of the Sophomores and some freshmen then what they are getting now. Is anything incorrect in that. Not getting impatient either however in college basketball you don't have the luxury of waiting too long for everything to start clicking.
Well that is probably true but it's also true and even more common on message boards that people overreact to a few early games when there's not nearly enough sample to base any meaningful conclusions on.
You can , and many teams do, get by on a 7 man rotation. Wisconsin does it all the time. It doesn't matter what class the players in the rotation are if they are effective.
There will be a couple guys step up and fill roles out of Ellingson, Baer, Jones Uhl and Wagner.
I feel like this conversation has already been addressed the last two years, with Gattens and Marble.
You don't have to have new players that play the same as the ones that left.
There's unlimited ways to play basketball.
This team is totally different than last year, and the year before, and the year before that.
We're going to shoot and make a ton of threes, that's how this team is going to play, which is a perfectly viable way to win and something Iowa has not had the ability to do for a very long time.
There isn't going to be anyone like Aaron White or Olesani. Or Devin Marble or Matt Gattens, or anyone else that's not on this team.
