Neil Young tells Spotify to choose between him and Joe Rogan.

ANYCHawk

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The chicks aren’t a podcast or political talking radio. Point is I think it’s a slippery slope to allow artist to use their leverage to control whats put on the airwaves. I don’t care what it’s for or against.
That's literally called the marketplace of ideas and is the basis for how free speech works.

God, some of you guys are so dumb on this stuff. A) free speech only applies to the government. B) controlling speech is the marketplace. If the market says your idea is dumb and we don't want to hear it, it's not censorship. It's everybody saying take your crap somewhere else. It's how it's supposed to work. No government intevention needed, society took care of it.

Just cause Joe Rogan can say whatever he wants doesn't mean me, you or Neil Young have to listen to it or give him the platform to say it. For 97 to argue it's censorship is so dumb it is an insult for those who fight against actual censorship. For Harrison to argue its a slippery slope is so dumb it's an insult to people who understand a high school version of free speech, capitalism and the marketplace of ideas.
 

tarheelbybirth

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No one is saying they can't protest.
That hasn't even been brought up.

But when your protest calls for silencing someone, you're calling for censorship.

If people wanted to censor putting NAMBLA pamphlets in the grade school library, we'd all support that, right?
It'd be censorship, what else could we call it?
*sigh* Money is speech according to the SC. If I refuse to spend money at Chick-Fil-A becasue they support anti-gay groups, by your definition, I am attemping to "censor" their speech. That's fine. That makes your definition of censorship so broad that it pretty much becomes meaningless but that's you. If I tell a student they can't talk during class or they will go to the office, I'm "censoring" them. Sure. Whatever.
 
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mstp1992

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What is censorship?

Please point me to the post answering this question.

It’s like you don’t think the concept exists in practice, or you don’t know what it is.
So tell me, what is censorship.
Of course censorship occurs. However, a private entity is allowed to choose the “voices” they feel represent their interests.

This is not censorship, nor would it be if Rogan told Spotify to cease relations with Neil Young. You’re only looking at this through a biased lens.
 
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seminole97

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Of course censorship occurs.

But what is censorship in YOUR eyes?
Why won’t you say what you think it is?

However, a private entity is allowed to choose the “voices” they feel represent their interests.

And a private entity can censor the voices they don’t want to broadcast.
Why is that half of the concept lost on you?

This is not censorship, nor would it be if Rogan told Spotify to cease relations with Neil Young. You’re only looking at this through a biased lens.
What is censorship?
 

seminole97

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A) free speech only applies to the government
Free speech is a concept, irrespective of the government.

1st amendment restrictions on abridging free speech apply to the government.

It is a mistake to say that Neil Young seeks to violate Rogan's 1st amendment rights, as the 1st amendment isn't restraint on Neil Young.
But no one is saying that.
That's why there hasn't been talk of the first amendment in this thread.

For 97 to argue it's censorship is so dumb it is an insult for those who fight against actual censorship.
What is 'actual censorship'?
Do you imagine 'actual censorship' is something only the government can do?
 

ANYCHawk

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What else would you call it?
What is censorship?
You're an insult to people with a third grade education.

Censorship is a group of people deciding to limit some type of speech on the basis of something being obscene of offensive.

Saying this is dumb is not censorship. Or do you think every time a TV show gets canceled for low ratings its censorship? Or when people tell you to STFU its censorship? It is not. It's the market working itself out.

Nobody has called for Joe Rogan to be censored. Nobody has said his stuff is obscene. They said its stupid and I don't like it. Remove it please. That's how this is supposed to work. For you to argue its censorship or some form of it shows you have no ability to think beyond said third-grade education.

I thought this was just an act but now its clear you're just a moran.
 

ANYCHawk

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Free speech is a concept, irrespective of the government.

1st amendment restrictions on abridging free speech apply to the government.

It is a mistake to say that Neil Young seeks to violate Rogan's 1st amendment rights, as the 1st amendment isn't restraint on Neil Young.
But no one is saying that.
That's why there hasn't been talk of the first amendment in this thread.


What is 'actual censorship'?
Do you imagine 'actual censorship' is something only the government can do?
YOU. ARE. A. MORAN.

Free speech is a concept good then we agree its based on teh market place of ideas. The market saying we don't want to hear your Bull is how its suppsoed to work its not censorship. Glad you admitted how stupid you are.

A group of people can censor something but its when its obscene or offensive. When you say this is stupid, that's not censorship. When you try and argue it is, it shows you have no grasp of the concept and have an education of a second grader.
 

seminole97

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I'd call it censorship. Every time I tell a student to be quiet, I'm censoring them. Same for parents and their kids. Everyone is a censor. Now be quiet.
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions and other controlling bodies.

I note you still won't say what you think censorship is.
Do you think what you've described doesn't meet that definition?

I'm trying to figure out what definition your operate under for the word censorship.
For some reason you won't say it.
Let's hear it.
 

seminole97

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Yes, that's exactly what he's saying.
No, if a studio kills a show because it doesn't make them money they're killing a show because it doesn't make them money.

If they kill a show because Neil Young doesn't want anyone to hear it and threatens to leverage his financial power over the firm to get that show off their broadcasts, that's censorship.

The reasoning is a factor in determining censorship.
No one has said otherwise.

You really seem to struggle with this concept.
No wonder you've avoided offering a definition of what you think is censorship.
 

ANYCHawk

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"The term censorship, however, as commonly understood, connotes any examination of thought or expression in order to prevent publication of 'objectionable' material."

Here is the supreme court definition of "censorship."

Objectionable does not include something that is wrong. By your definition math books would be infinity pages long because well 2+2 equals 4 or it could equal 5 or 6 or 7, just because one person says it. to get rid of the wrong answers would be censorship.

It's not censorship to say uh no that's wrong and not give it a platform. To argue it is censorship so a complete lack of understanding of words or complex thoughts.
 
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ANYCHawk

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Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions and other controlling bodies.

I note you still won't say what you think censorship is.
Do you think what you've described doesn't meet that definition?

I'm trying to figure out what definition your operate under for the word censorship.
For some reason you won't say it.
Let's hear it.
FOR THE FING 97TH time people have told you what censorship is. They've done it since page 2. You've ignored it.
 

ANYCHawk

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No, if a studio kills a show because it doesn't make them money they're killing a show because it doesn't make them money.
But they are eliminating that show's ideas because they find the loss of money inconvenient.

You said censorship is getting rid of anything the government, a group or an individual, deems inconvenient. See:

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions and other controlling bodies.

So you admit your whole premise is stupid and you're a moran. Thanks for finally doing that.
 

tarheelbybirth

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Apr 17, 2003
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Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by governments,[5] private institutions and other controlling bodies.

I note you still won't say what you think censorship is.
Do you think what you've described doesn't meet that definition?

I'm trying to figure out what definition your operate under for the word censorship.
For some reason you won't say it.
Let's hear it.
I just told you I agreed with you. Censorship occurs any time one party asks another to be quiet and has some "leverage" to use. A canceled TV show has been censored. I censor students every day. Neil Young is trying to censor Rogan. A parent telling their child to hush is censoring them. You taking your business elsewhere because of a stance a company has taken is censorship. Here's a definition of censorship - "Be quiet or else".

We good?
 

seminole97

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Free speech is a concept good then we agree its based on teh market place of ideas. The market saying we don't want to hear your Bull is how its suppsoed to work its not censorship.

If no one wants to listen to you're show that isn't censorship.
No one in this thread has suggested otherwise.
If you think so, quote it and let them address your confusion specifically.

If someone tries to get your show taken off of broadcast, that is censorship.
They're trying to control the flow of communications between third parties because they don't want it to happen.

I don't like country music.
I don't buy country music.
That isn't censoring country music.
If I try to get record firms to quit producing country music and distributing it, that would be censorship.

A group of people can censor something but its when its obscene or offensive. When you say this is stupid, that's not censorship. When you try and argue it is, it shows you have no grasp of the concept and have an education of a second grader.
Neil Young didn't simply say, 'this is stupid', he wants what he considers dangerous speech to be censored.
He wants an outlet to preclude broadcast of content that he objects to.

How else do you define censorship?
 

tarheelbybirth

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No, if a studio kills a show because it doesn't make them money they're killing a show because it doesn't make them money.

If they kill a show because Neil Young doesn't want anyone to hear it and threatens to leverage his financial power over the firm to get that show off their broadcasts, that's censorship.
Well...oops.

The show got canceled because the public collectively decided it wasn't worthy of being on the air...for whatever reason. THEY censored it. Just like Young is attempting to censor Rogan. You don't get to run away from your own definition.
 
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mstp1992

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The organized or concerted effort to suppress and/or restrict the fundamental rights of an individual or group to freely express themselves through works of art, literature, music, etc.

Rogan has no fundamental right to have Spotify host his podcasts (or whatever they're called). It's a contractual relationship based on a business model.

If every single media platform (using media as a generic term) acted together to prevent Rogan's podcasts from being broadcast then you could have collusion to censor him. However, individual, private entertainment/media companies are not required by law to host anyone on their platform, for any reason. It's all contractual. If Rogan meets the standards required by his contract, Spotify will continue to host him. If they deem he's violated their terms of agreement, they can terminate that contract.

This is not that hard to understand.
 

seminole97

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I just told you I agreed with you. Censorship occurs any time one party asks another to be quiet and has some "leverage" to use.

Correct.

A canceled TV show has been censored.
If it was cancelled due to objection to the content, correct.
If it was cancelled due to being unprofitable, that isn't censorship.

I censor students every day.

No doubt, you have a position of authority and the capability to do so.
A lot of people wish they had that power over others.

Neil Young is trying to censor Rogan.

Correct.
He objects to the content of Rogan's communications and seeks to suppress others accessing them.

You taking your business elsewhere because of a stance a company has taken is censorship.

No, you're going to broad.
I could choose to not buy something due to something a business has done without it being censorship.
Censorship would require me trying to suppress communications.
It's specific to that.
Not 'a stance' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).
 

seminole97

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But they are eliminating that show's ideas because they find the loss of money inconvenient.

They're objecting to being poorer, not the content of the communications.
The distinction is critical.

The basis of censorship is objection to the content of the communication.

If they end the show due to objection to the content: censorship
If they end the show because it doesn't make them any money: capitalism
 
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seminole97

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The organized or concerted effort to suppress and/or restrict the fundamental rights of an individual or group to freely express themselves through works of art, literature, music, etc.

If I try to get Neil Young taken off Spotify, am I trying to restrict his ability to express himself?

Rogan has no fundamental right to have Spotify host his podcasts (or whatever they're called).

Strawman.
No one has asserted otherwise in the thread.

What has been pointed out is that when someone tries to get Rogan's broadcasts taken off of Spotify because they don't want other people to hear him, that is a request for censorship.


If every single media platform (using media as a generic term) acted together to prevent Rogan's podcasts from being broadcast then you could have collusion to censor him.
In the beginning you said 'effort to suppress and/or restrict', now you're saying it must be universal and complete, or it doesn't count.

Which is it?
 

seminole97

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Well...oops.

The show got canceled because the public collectively decided it wasn't worthy of being on the air...for whatever reason. THEY censored it. Just like Young is attempting to censor Rogan. You don't get to run away from your own definition.
Me choosing to not buy something isn't a 'collective action' to prevent you from buying it.

If enough people aren't interested it may be unprofitable, and for that reason no one may bother to make it for you even if you liked it. But that isn't the same as taking action to preclude you when others would otherwise be willing.
 

tarheelbybirth

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Me choosing to not buy something isn't a 'collective action' to prevent you from buying it.

If enough people aren't interested it may be unprofitable, and for that reason no one may bother to make it for you even if you liked it. But that isn't the same as taking action to preclude you when others would otherwise be willing.
But if enough people choose to not buy it...or watch it...or listen to it...that's collective action and can prevent others from enjoying it when it gets dropped. That's censorship according to you. So now you'll tell me it has to be organized collective action? Again...oops.

Young's decision is his own. It is not collective. He's not organizing any greater boycott to my knowledge. He's telling Spotify that they can't make money off his work if they continue to make money off Rogan. It might encourage other artists to do the same much like you leaving a bad Yelp review can dissuade others. Is it censorship?
 
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mstp1992

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If I try to get Neil Young taken off Spotify, am I trying to restrict his ability to express himself?



Strawman.
No one has asserted otherwise in the thread.

What has been pointed out is that when someone tries to get Rogan's broadcasts taken off of Spotify because they don't want other people to hear him, that is a request for censorship.



In the beginning you said 'effort to suppress and/or restrict', now you're saying it must be universal and complete, or it doesn't count.

Which is it?
Show me where I used the word "universal."
 

seminole97

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Show me where I used the word "universal."
“If every single media platform (using media as a generic term) acted together”

You used the concept universal.

Need the definition?


adjective
  1. of, affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases.
 

seminole97

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But they are eliminating that show's ideas because they find the loss of money inconvenient.
Censorship is when someone wants to suppress communication to prevent the spread of information they find disagreeable. That last part is key. You don’t have that, how can you be talking about censorship?

That isn’t the scenario of a show taken off the air due to unprofitably.

Stop the broadcast because someone doesn’t want the message disseminated - censorship.

Stop the broadcast because no one will watch the commercials to pay for it - not censorship.

Any other confusing scenarios you want to run through?
 

noStemsnoSTICKS

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Censorship is when someone wants to suppress communication to prevent the spread of information they find disagreeable. That last part is key. You don’t have that, how can you be talking about censorship?

That isn’t the scenario of a show taken off the air due to unprofitably.

Stop the broadcast because someone doesn’t want the message disseminated - censorship.

Stop the broadcast because no one will watch the commercials to pay for it - not censorship.

Any other confusing scenarios you want to run through?
Neil never said to "stop the broadcast." You're making that part up.
 
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seminole97

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But if enough people choose to not buy it...or watch it...or listen to it...that's collective action
That isn’t collective action.

Collective.
done by people acting as a group.

Your premise is flatly wrong.

So now you'll tell me it has to be organized collective action? Again...oops.
Oops, indeed.
Collective action is organized, that’s the distinction of a collective.
The summation of individual acts are not necessarily collective action. The free market is the summation of individuals acting. But if they are not acting as an organized group they’re not acting as a collective.

You don’t seem to understand the word you’re using.
 

noStemsnoSTICKS

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Mstp1993 recognized it was an ultimatum, ‘him or me, not both.’

That means stop broadcasting Rogan, or stop broadcasting Young.

How do you perceive it?
It is an ultimatum. But that fact is irrelevant. An ultimatum does not equal censorship.

"Do this or I sue you." << That's an ultimatum. That's not censorship.

"Do business with me, or do business with him. Not both." That's an ultimatum. That too, not censorship.

Is that your basis for censorship? That Neil used an ultimatum???
 
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86Hawkeye

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Per the WSJ, Young’s music is coming off of Spotify.

I guess he’s not as big as he thinks he is.
 

tarheelbybirth

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That isn’t collective action.

Collective.
done by people acting as a group.

Your premise is flatly wrong.


Oops, indeed.
Collective action is organized, that’s the distinction of a collective.
The summation of individual acts are not necessarily collective action. The free market is the summation of individuals acting. But if they are not acting as an organized group they’re not acting as a collective.

You don’t seem to understand the word you’re using.
I understand it perfectly. It's apparent that you do not. Young isn't - as stated - acting in any possible way, collectively. He's simply stating that he won't share a platform with Rogan. No matter how you slice it - and you will slice it as thinly as hell - that's not censorship.

And, btw, me telling a student in my class to get quiet isn't censorship - that idea is dumb as all hell.
 
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seminole97

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It is an ultimatum. But that fact is irrelevant. An ultimatum does not equal censorship.
"Do this or I sue you." << That's an ultimatum. That's not censorship.

"Do business with me, or do business with him. Not both." That's an ultimatum. That too, not censorship.

Is that your basis for censorship? That Neil used an ultimatum???
Yes, the basis for censorship is trying to suppress someone else from communicating information you don’t want them to.

What part about that is confusing?

I’m still curious what difference you see in these three statements:

“Spotify has a responsibility to mitigate the spread of misinformation on its platform”

“Spotify has a responsibility to censor the spread of misinformation on its platform”

“Spotify has a responsibility to suppress the spread of misinformation on its platform”

Do those three statements all mean different things to you?
 

seminole97

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I understand it perfectly. It's apparent that you do not. Young isn't - as stated - acting in any possible way, collectively.

Who stated Young was acting collectively?
The “collective” thing was your straw man.
An effort need not be ‘collectively’ undertaken to be a call for censorship.

He's simply stating that he won't share a platform with Rogan. No matter how you slice it - and you will slice it as thinly as hell - that's not censorship.
He said more than that, though. He said why, and provided an ultimatum.
He wants Spotify to suppress Rogan’s communication.
You can’t just disappear that part of his demand because it blows up your argument.
He has said why he wants him censored. We don’t have to guess.

What should we call wanting someone else’s communications suppressed because we disagree with the content of the message? Does our language have a word for this?