Nolf > DT?

[Jackhawk87]

I know this is HR, but we all appreciate great wrestling. Watching Nolf dismantle Smith got me to thinking of this. Nolf is just a machine. Throwback to the old Iowa wrestlers that are just nonstop and wear out their opponents. Many say that is no longer possible due to other programs adjusting and the new generation of wrestlers being in better condition. While this is somewhat true, Nolf just wrestles at such a high pace that he really does break guys.

While DT was just so smooth and was better than everybody else from the first second on the mat (exception of Dake [and Bubba and DSJ in finals matches]), he really didn't break guys nearly as much as Nolf - so it is a bit of apples and oranges (tomatoes vs. oranges) comparison. I enjoy watching both of them wrestle. I think Nolf has a better resume at the end of his career.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I don't think so. I like nolf a lot and he may be a 3xer but will he have 2 hodge awards and be the ncaa all time bonus efficiency leader?

Plus saying DT didn't break people is BS. fact is DSJ,evans and more did all they could to barely not get majored.

Imart beat nolf. Wouldn't you favor Dake over both?

I think this is another example of the most recent wrestler is influences you because he's going now.

I will say Imo nolf reminds me a lot of Zalesky

 

[pumpdog20]

DT just beat 2 olympic champions.

I think they both are going to benefit from having weak weight classes, but lose to all time greats. Phenomenal talents they both are though.

 

[Azchief32]

Imart beat nolf. Wouldn't you favor Dake over both?

Yea...but Nolf beat IMar which could end up being IMar's only blemish and vice versa. DT never beat his nemesis plus got pinned in the finals against Bubba. I don't think you can say that IMar or Nolf couldn't beat Dake in folkstyle...lesser guys did like Kevin LeValley, Donnie Vinson, Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey. Sure, not when it counted but they are still there.

 

[pablow]

Good point. For years people have claimed that the Gable conditioning edge would be lost today as other schools had picked it up in that area. Nolf proves this is a lie. A Gable conditioned Mark Ironside type would be just as lethal today as 20 years ago. I always thought this claim about conditioning parity was nonsense. Now we know it is.

 

[AFHawk86]

Throw Nickal into the conversation as well. He pins guys from any position and he's not afraid to wrestle. I realize that attitude got him in trouble during last year's finals, but we will see how he fared against Dean should they meet up.

 

[Stanley75]

Nolf Lost to Imar. DT lost to Dake. I would say they are very similar in talent. Imar may be the best out of all of them. I doubt Nolf loses another match barring injury. We are talking about some college phenoms here.

 

[Azchief32]

DT just beat 2 olympic champions.

I think they both are going to benefit from having weak weight classes, but lose to all time greats. Phenomenal talents they both are though.

DT is great and there has been no bigger non PSU fan than me (I once argued on here that he was the most dominant two time champ) but DT benefitted from weak weight classes as well in his sophomore and senior year. His sophomore finals was against Brandon Hatchett and his senior was against Caldwell.

Nolf makes a lot of real good guys look silly and the OP is right: He breaks a lot of dudes. DT was methodical whereas Nolf is fury.

 

[pablow]

Throw Nickal into the conversation as well. He pins guys from any position and he's not afraid to wrestle. I realize that attitude got him in trouble during last year's finals, but we will see how he fared against Dean should they meet up.

Wayne Wells > Wade Schalles, therefore Gabe Dean > Bo Nickal. The funk can only go so far.

 

[pumpdog20]

DT is great and there has been no bigger non PSU fan than me (I once argued on here that he was the most dominant two time champ) but DT benefitted from weak weight classes as well in his sophomore and senior year. His sophomore finals was against Brandon Hatchett and his senior was against Caldwell.

Nolf makes a lot of real good guys look silly and the OP is right: He breaks a lot of dudes. DT was methodical whereas Nolf is fury.

I did say they both benefited from weak weight classes.

 

[Stanley75]

Good point. For years people have claimed that the Gable conditioning edge would be lost today as other schools had picked it up in that area. Nolf proves this is a lie. A Gable conditioned Mark Ironside type would be just as lethal today as 20 years ago. I always thought this claim about conditioning parity was nonsense. Now we know it is.

Gables best attribute was mental conditioning his wrestlers. Mental conditioning wins matches when all else is equal. Gilman is a perfect example of this. He is Iowa's strongest minded Wrestler and is also Iowa's best wrestler.

 

[Azchief32]

Good point. For years people have claimed that the Gable conditioning edge would be lost today as other schools had picked it up in that area. Nolf proves this is a lie. A Gable conditioned Mark Ironside type would be just as lethal today as 20 years ago. I always thought this claim about conditioning parity was nonsense. Now we know it is.

Nolf isn't always pretty and that's why he reminds me of an Iowa guy from the days of yore. We saw a bit of that mentality this weekend in Nelson Brands. Don't know if Nelson has the athletic ability that a Nolf has. Go figure that the only guy that could keep him from bonus is Kemerer...an Iowa guy....which isn't saying much (yet) because he was doing his best just to keep it from bonus.

 

[Stanley75]

Throw Nickal into the conversation as well. He pins guys from any position and he's not afraid to wrestle. I realize that attitude got him in trouble during last year's finals, but we will see how he fared against Dean should they meet up.

This might be the match of the meet.

 

[Azchief32]

Gables best attribute was mental conditioning his wrestlers. Mental conditioning wins matches when all else is equal. Gilman is a perfect example of this. He is Iowa's strongest minded Wrestler and is also Iowa's best wrestler.

This is where Cael has the coaching advantage over Brands...not so much mental toughness as willingness to take risks...at least for their elite guys although a few of Zain's matches might negate this theory. But it's the chicken or the egg once again. Bo was known for being a risk taker before he got to PSU...Nolf did these things in high school. But so did others in PSU and Iowa's lineup. Gilman, Zain, Nolf and Bo have just taken it to the next level.

 

[Exo]

DT is great and there has been no bigger non PSU fan than me (I once argued on here that he was the most dominant two time champ) but DT benefitted from weak weight classes as well in his sophomore and senior year. His sophomore finals was against Brandon Hatchett and his senior was against Caldwell.

Nolf makes a lot of real good guys look silly and the OP is right: He breaks a lot of dudes. DT was methodical whereas Nolf is fury.

Who the hell counter argued that?

 

[Azchief32]

Who the hell counter argued that?

If you think about it, John Smith and Dan Gable. I went through and looked at all their records and DT had the most bonus IIRC...I counted Gable's wins against today's scoring standards. However, I did not factor in strength of schedule as I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on Gable's opponents...or even Smith's to a certain extent.

 

[1stplacehawk]

DT is great and there has been no bigger non PSU fan than me (I once argued on here that he was the most dominant two time champ) but DT benefitted from weak weight classes as well in his sophomore and senior year. His sophomore finals was against Brandon Hatchett and his senior was against Caldwell.

Nolf makes a lot of real good guys look silly and the OP is right: He breaks a lot of dudes. DT was methodical whereas Nolf is fury.

Nolf is great but has also benefited from weak weight classes. He only had two elite wrestlers besides himself in his weight last year, and he only faced one of them. 157 is one of the weakest weight classes again this year.

 

[Sandor45]

sigh,
Nolf is probably one of my favorite wrestlers that's not a Hawk.

 

[Azchief32]

Nolf is great but has also benefited from weak weight classes. He only had two elite wrestlers besides himself in his weight last year, and he only faced one of them. 157 is one of the weakest weight classes again this year.

I like this sarcasm

 

[Grip220]

If we are talking folk style only career wise out of these guys I think you would have to put Dake at the top for obvious reasons come march there's not much of a debate considering DT is on this list .. I do not think Nolf or Imar would beat DT or KD in there prime years of college at same weight classes .. And I'm pretty sure that when KD was at 149 he would have beat Zain also . I think DT at the weight class he is at rt now handles Bo pretty Easley he is not hitting DT with a spladle or a cradle.. Maybe the PSU guys have seen them roll in HV.. IMHO

 

[Stanley75]

This is where Cael has the coaching advantage over Brands...not so much mental toughness as willingness to take risks...at least for their elite guys although a few of Zain's matches might negate this theory. But it's the chicken or the egg once again. Bo was known for being a risk taker before he got to PSU...Nolf did these things in high school. But so did others in PSU and Iowa's lineup. Gilman, Zain, Nolf and Bo have just taken it to the next level.

I agree but Cael is starting with better material to work with for starts. His recruiting has been superior to Iowa's over the lat 6-7 years. I think Iowa has finally caught on to this. Let's put them on an even playing field and see what happens.
Think about it, Gilman is no where near the talent level Suriano is. Gilman is our best and PSU has 5 or 6 guys with better talent. It's not even close and the results show. Iowa has been trying to turn sow's ears into silk purses. PSU is starting with silk purses.
Iowa does have some real talent coming in but, PSU will collect a couple more NCs in the mean time unfortunately.

 

[Exo]

If you think about it, John Smith and Dan Gable. I went through and looked at all their records and DT had the most bonus IIRC...I counted Gable's wins against today's scoring standards. However, I did not factor in strength of schedule as I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on Gable's opponents...or even Smith's to a certain extent.

Yeah, The bonus points percentage by DT is what separates him. Considering the amount of matches he wrestled as well. A full season more than Gable.

 

[Azchief32]

I agree but Cael is starting with better material to work with for starts. His recruiting has been superior to Iowa's over the lat 6-7 years. I think Iowa has finally caught on to this. Let's put them on an even playing field and see what happens.
Think about it, Gilman is no where near the talent level Suriano is. Gilman is our best and PSU has 5 or 6 guys with better talent. It's not even close and the results show. Iowa has been trying to turn sow's ears into silk purses. PSU is starting with silk purses.
Iowa does have some real talent coming in but, PSU will collect a couple more NCs in the mean time unfortunately.

No one has made this argument more than me...I get hammered by PSU fans for it. We do not have one #1 weight class guy on our team. Both Cory Clark and Gilman were ranked third in their weight class. Still, if you look at a guy like Brandon Sorensen, he has proved that he can be dominate if he would take more risks. He doesn't. Instead, he is satisfied to let some matches go into overtime. Even Gilman hasn't progressed that much on top over his five years and doesn't attack as much against elite guys. He didn't shoot much at all against Suriano or Nato last year. He beat Delgado his freshman year...he was pretty good.

Nolf attacks...even against IMar. Not all guys on the PSU team do it despite the current narrative in college wrestling that they do. But they don't need them to. They just need Nolf, Bo, and Zain to do their thing and have Hall, Suriano, Cenzo, and their HWY be really good...which they are.

 

[Azchief32]

Yeah, The bonus points percentage by DT is what separates him. Considering the amount of matches he wrestled as well. A full season more than Gable.

I accounted for that with all three. Took out their freshman year. Just remembering that I may have just looked at the NCAAs to see who was the best point scorer.

 

[1stplacehawk]

No one has made this argument more than me...I get hammered by PSU fans for it. We do not have one #1 weight class guy on our team. Both Cory Clark and Gilman were ranked third in their weight class. Still, if you look at a guy like Brandon Sorensen, he has proved that he can be dominate if he would take more risks. He doesn't. Instead, he is satisfied to let some matches go into overtime. Even Gilman hasn't progressed that much on top over his five years and doesn't attack as much against elite guys. He didn't shoot much at all against Suriano or Nato last year. He beat Delgado his freshman year...he was pretty good.

Nolf attacks...even against IMar. Not all guys on the PSU team do it despite the current narrative in college wrestling that they do. But they don't need them to. They just need Nolf, Bo, and Zain to do their thing and have Hall, Suriano, Cenzo, and their HWY be really good...which they are.

Kemerer was #1. He won Super 32, Ironman, Powerade, and PA States. Where are people getting that he was #2 at his weight coming out of high school?

 

[1stplacehawk]

I like this sarcasm

You think 157 is a good weight this year?

 

[Azchief32]

You think 157 is a good weight this year?

Haha...no. If you look at my reply to Pumpdog's, he acknowledged that both DT and Nolf have weak weight classes but I went ahead and said DT did as well not catching Pumpdog's assertion. I thought you were messing with me because I also wrote both were weak.

 

[Azchief32]

Kemerer was #1. He won Super 32, Ironman, Powerade, and PA States. Where are people getting that he was #2 at his weight coming out of high school?

Both he and Cenzo were forecasted at the same weight according to D1CW. Cenzo was ranked higher.

http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Top150_2015.html

 

[1stplacehawk]

Both he and Cenzo were forecasted at the same weight according to D1CW. Cenzo was ranked higher.

Gotchya, I thought you were talking high school weight class ranking (145) where he was #1 pretty much the entire year.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Haha...no. If you look at my reply to Pumpdog's, he acknowledged that both DT and Nolf have weak weight classes but I went ahead and said DT did as well not catching Pumpdog's assertion. I thought you were messing with me because I also wrote both were weak.

I only read a couple of the posts on this thread, so I probably just completely missed it.

 

[Azchief32]

I only read a couple of the posts on this thread, so I probably just completely missed it.

Haha...that's ok, I read Pump's and still missed it.

 

[lionlover]

If we are talking folk style only career wise out of these guys I think you would have to put Dake at the top for obvious reasons come march there's not much of a debate considering DT is on this list .. I do not think Nolf or Imar would beat DT or KD in there prime years of college at same weight classes .. And I'm pretty sure that when KD was at 149 he would have beat Zain also . I think DT at the weight class he is at rt now handles Bo pretty Easley he is not hitting DT with a spladle or a cradle.. Maybe the PSU guys have seen them roll in HV.. IMHO

Good post for the most part. But, I am not sure about your last statement. DT got cradled by Bubba in the finals. From my point of view Bo is better at locking up cradles than Bubba.

 

[lionlover]

No one has made this argument more than me...I get hammered by PSU fans for it. We do not have one #1 weight class guy on our team. Both Cory Clark and Gilman were ranked third in their weight class. Still, if you look at a guy like Brandon Sorensen, he has proved that he can be dominate if he would take more risks. He doesn't. Instead, he is satisfied to let some matches go into overtime. Even Gilman hasn't progressed that much on top over his five years and doesn't attack as much against elite guys. He didn't shoot much at all against Suriano or Nato last year. He beat Delgado his freshman year...he was pretty good.

Nolf attacks...even against IMar. Not all guys on the PSU team do it despite the current narrative in college wrestling that they do. But they don't need them to. They just need Nolf, Bo, and Zain to do their thing and have Hall, Suriano, Cenzo, and their HWY be really good...which they are.

@Azchief32 You do get hammered by most PSU fans. However, I am not one of them. I think you point is valid. I respect you more than any Iowa fan (and a lot of PSU fans) because you are "fair" and "balanced" unlike... a lot of PSU and Iowa fans.

I agree that Cael has more to work with than Brands when it comes to the wrestlers he recruits. Cael is like Alabama's Saban in football when it comes to recruiting super stars. It makes PSU tougher to beat because of the blue chips he gets every year.

I also think that Brands does a great job coaching the wrestlers that he has. He is a tremendous coach. When I see posters here saying that Iowa should fire him, I just shake my head.

That being said, "recruiting wrestlers" is an integral part of the job description. Cael has clearly done a better job than Brands in this area. Nobody sane can argue this fact. That being said, getting Lee and Teasdale out of PA is a good start to fix his recruiting results.

 

[Grip220]

I was referring to DT now at 86kg he is a hell of a lot stronger then when he wrestled Bubba also Bubba was a man possessed.. We will find out cause I'm pretty sure he's not locking up a cradle on Dean either..

 

[pumpdog20]

If Dean shoots a low inside single and doesn't leave his leg back, he very well may get balled up as well.

 

[jvclark]

No one has made this argument more than me...I get hammered by PSU fans for it. We do not have one #1 weight class guy on our team. Both Cory Clark and Gilman were ranked third in their weight class. Still, if you look at a guy like Brandon Sorensen, he has proved that he can be dominate if he would take more risks. He doesn't. Instead, he is satisfied to let some matches go into overtime. Even Gilman hasn't progressed that much on top over his five years and doesn't attack as much against elite guys. He didn't shoot much at all against Suriano or Nato last year. He beat Delgado his freshman year...he was pretty good.

Nolf attacks...even against IMar. Not all guys on the PSU team do it despite the current narrative in college wrestling that they do. But they don't need them to. They just need Nolf, Bo, and Zain to do their thing and have Hall, Suriano, Cenzo, and their HWY be really good...which they are.

Chief: The attacks comment is spot on. What amazes me about his attack is the distance from which he can take those "high quality" shots. It's one of the ways the he is able to break down people as he keeps the action going without slowing down the match with wasted time in a tie up. While most other wrestlers attack from the feet from an ear to ear stance, or at best forehead to forehead, he is able to take long shots with out making contact. Not that he can't attack from a tie up, as he obviously can.

And on top of all that are the angles that he is able to get to on his opponents from those long shots. This makes him damn near impossible to defend against from your feet.

 

[Grip220]

If Dean shoots a low inside single and doesn't leave his leg back, he very well may get balled up as well.

I will take that bet...

 

[lookleft goright]

I think when people talk about the Gable's conditioning edge and Gable trained conditioning edge, they mean that it isn't as pronounced. There can always be a conditioning edge even if it is slight. During Gable's time, almost every Iowa wrestler had the conditioning edge on everyone they wrestled. Those are the days that are gone. IMHO

 

[jvclark]

I think when people talk about the Gable's conditioning edge and Gable trained conditioning edge, they mean that it isn't as pronounced. There can always be a conditioning edge even if it is slight. During Gable's time, almost every Iowa wrestler had the conditioning edge on everyone they wrestled. Those are the days that are gone. IMHO

I think you are right to some extent. The way that our sport was officiated has changed from the 80's to now. Stalling was called so much quicker 20-30 years ago. The low John Smith single that most wrestlers have in their attack now has lead to a lot more post shot mat/scrambling than there was in the 80s. This can slow down the match dramatically with more stalemates and breaks for the lesser conditioned athlete.

I think kids like Nolf, Retherford, Gilman Imar and a few others can still exploit conditioning, but I would agree it happens a lot less than it did in the past, but mostly as a result of things other than the kids actual conditioning.

 

[Azchief32]

That being said, "recruiting wrestlers" is an integral part of the job description. Cael has clearly done a better job than Brands in this area. Nobody sane can argue this fact. That being said, getting Lee and Teasdale out of PA is a good start to fix his recruiting results.

And no matter how much I say it, PSU guys will always say its a backhanded compliment because they want to have their cake and eat it too. Topher Carton and Jimmy Guilbon are almost equal. Topher Carton was unranked. Yes, he is a 5th year senior but this is his first full year as a starter. Joey Gunther was unranked as well...hell, never won a state title in Illinois. He doesn't even belong on the same mat with Cenzo in terms of accolades and it looked like their first period would prove that correct. But Joey fought and it was a close match.

Kemerer is our first top ten recruit in a long time...and damn but look at how offensive and aggressive he is out on the mat. I have heard how the "Iowa Style" is defunct for years from PSU fans but then we get a top ten kid like Kemerer who has been ranked second for most of the year...get a few more those and all of a sudden Brands is going to look like a genius too. I think Kem would give Zain a run for his money although I think Zain would ride the piss out of him at this point. We were fortunate to get Kemdawg but guys like him are the rule at PSU, not the exception.

Both organizations can recruit and develop well. Both do one better than the other. Guess who's winning? I'll take Cael's titles over some meaningless moral victory about development anytime.