*****Official Cubs 2021 thread*****

[MitchLL]

If only it were that easy

It could be. Ricketts and Hoyer realize Cub fans support the team no matter how bad they are. What motivation would mgmt have to field a competitive team? The only way for things to improve is for fans to stop buying gear, watching the team play, and stop attending games when the time comes.

The WS title was gravy. Ownership will be on this current path until fans change their approach. Anyone really think the remaining stars want to compete hard when there is no goal of winning?

The only question right now is how many big names are left by August 1st?

 

[win1forthe]

It has been reported that the owners want to push it back a month and play around 140 games, but the players want a full season so they get full pay. I don't see how the owners can delay it based on safety after playing 60 games and playoffs- unfortunately I could see them trying to delay it somehow to hurt the union with the cba expiring after the season. Owners are going to push for a true cap - if I was in the union I'd be for a cap if it includes a floor. The NFL and NBA have caps and have been spending like crazy. I'd also want a change to service time and a way to prevent teams from manipulating it as well for agreeing to a cap.

I think it really boils down to when fans can start attending games. I don’t blame the owners, but I can also understand why the players want to play as many games as possible. Personally, I want to see as many games as possible.

 

[win1forthe]

It could be. Ricketts and Hoyer realize Cub fans support the team no matter how bad they are. What motivation would mgmt have to field a competitive team? The only way for things to improve is for fans to stop buying gear, watching the team play, and stop attending games when the time comes.

The WS title was gravy. Ownership will be on this current path until fans change their approach.

The only question right now is how many big names are left by August 1st?

There is a school of thought that Hoyer wants to rebuild minor league depth and that means using some of the four prospects are trade chips in a year or two. There is very little-to-no market for Bryant or Baez right now, so hopefully their stock goes up by the trade deadline. They want to follow the Yankees model of re-tooling and not rebuilding. Not sure I see it but Jesse Rogers said today that Hoyer has a very clear plan of what he wants to do with the roster.

 

[MitchLL]

There is a school of thought that Hoyer wants to rebuild minor league depth and that means using some of the four prospects are trade chips in a year or two. There is very little-to-no market for Bryant or Baez right now, so hopefully their stock goes up by the trade deadline. They want to follow the Yankees model of re-tooling and not rebuilding. Not sure I see it but Jesse Rogers said today that Hoyer has a very clear plan of what he wants to do with the roster.

You may be right, but given the sorry state of the Cub's minor league quality...this just looks like a 5-8 year rebuild. If you hit on even 50% of the prospects you're acquiring, that's exceptional. A whole lot of things have to fall right for this to work.

 

[bdg8]

It could be. Ricketts and Hoyer realize Cub fans support the team no matter how bad they are. What motivation would mgmt have to field a competitive team? The only way for things to improve is for fans to stop buying gear, watching the team play, and stop attending games when the time comes.

The WS title was gravy. Ownership will be on this current path until fans change their approach. Anyone really think the remaining stars want to compete hard when there is no goal of winning?

The only question right now is how many big names are left by August 1st?

I can’t just up and change the team I cheer for . I doubt many could

 

[HawkRugged17]

Except the Royals are in a shitty TV market and a relatively small fan base.

If I'm a Cub's fan, I say "Screw this". There's better teams to root for.

50 years invested. I am all in.

 

[LuteHawk]

If the White Sox can become a big winner in the AL
with their talented roster, then the Cubs will become
fodder for the obituary page of the Chicago Tribune.

 

[MitchLL]

It's difficult to understand "raising the white flag" for a team with so many above average players? Outside of Lester, none of these guys are really guys past their prime. Now I realize you don't have to field a great team to compete in the NL Central, but throwing in the towel after a Covid season seems like a drastic response.

And now the other teams see how little the Cubs want in return for their stars. Things look pretty bleak from this outsiders POV.

But hey... you'll always have 2016 to remember.

 

[hawkifann]

It's difficult to understand "raising the white flag" for a team with so many above average players? Outside of Lester, none of these guys are really guys past their prime. Now I realize you don't have to field a great team to compete in the NL Central, but throwing in the towel after a Covid season seems like a drastic response.

And now the other teams see how little the Cubs want in return for their stars. Things look pretty bleak from this outsiders POV.

But hey... you'll always have 2016 to remember.

We have no idea what the final roster will look like. They currently have 14 players under contract. This is going to be a fascinating offseason, if only because all the uncertainty is going to create bizarre market conditions.

 

[dgordo]

It's difficult to understand "raising the white flag" for a team with so many above average players? Outside of Lester, none of these guys are really guys past their prime. Now I realize you don't have to field a great team to compete in the NL Central, but throwing in the towel after a Covid season seems like a drastic response.

And now the other teams see how little the Cubs want in return for their stars. Things look pretty bleak from this outsiders POV.

But hey... you'll always have 2016 to remember.

if you don’t have a team good enough to win the World Series you should do something. Barely winning a week division this year is meaningless.

 

[MitchLL]

if you don’t have a ream good enough to win the World Series you should do something. Barely winning a week division this year is meaningless.

I don't believe you do a major overhaul based on a shitty 60 game season. As an example... is mgmt convinced Baez is as bad as he was in 2020? Is Bryant a lost cause because he stank in 2020?

You can win a WS by getting hot at the right time. All you do is get to the post season and see what happens.

I know many of you have been fans for 20/30/40 years. I've been a NYY fan for >50 years. If the NYY did what the Cubs seem destined to do this off season, I would say "screw this" and find something else to do with my fandom.

 

[dgordo]

I don't believe you do a major overhaul based on a shitty 60 game season. As an example... is mgmt convinced Baez is as bad as he was in 2020? Is Bryant a lost cause because he stank in 2020?

You can win a WS by getting hot at the right time. All you do is get to the post season and see what happens.

I know many of you have been fans for 20/30/40 years. I've been a NYY fan for >50 years. If the NYY did what the Cubs seem destined to do this off season, I would say "screw this" and find something else to do with my fandom.

I get it, and I get if other people agree with you. I’d rather finish last than win 80 games.

 

[hawkifann]

I don't believe you do a major overhaul based on a shitty 60 game season. As an example... is mgmt convinced Baez is as bad as he was in 2020? Is Bryant a lost cause because he stank in 2020?

You can win a WS by getting hot at the right time. All you do is get to the post season and see what happens.

I know many of you have been fans for 20/30/40 years. I've been a NYY fan for >50 years. If the NYY did what the Cubs seem destined to do this off season, I would say "screw this" and find something else to do with my fandom.

We don’t even know what they’re going to do yet. If you look at career numbers, the core of Rizzo, KB, Javy, Contreras look like a solid offensive core. Happ had a good year last year and Hoerner has shown some things. There will be cheap bats available. The bullpen was solid by the end of the year last year and you roll it back, hope some of the young arms continue to develop in the pitching lab and add a couple more cheap arms. Rotation is in question - Hendricks, Davies, Mills, Alzolay? There will be other arms available via free agency. Maybe Marquez steps up this year. There are options.

You come sweeping in with the “white flag” stuff, but we don’t even know if that’s what they’re doing. The “Effectively Wild” podcast had a pretty good episode breaking down the trade and while the Cubs took criticism for the deal, one of the Fangraphs prospect wizards was on and had a really good breakdown of the trade. I’m not going to defend the trade, history will prove whether it was a winner, a loser or irrelevant. The main point is that the Cubs STILL have every opportunity to win this division. They’re setting up flexibility to give themselves options with extensions, future signings, etc. If they ultimately don’t use that flexibility, then I’ll jump in with both feet on the criticism.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I don't believe you do a major overhaul based on a shitty 60 game season. As an example... is mgmt convinced Baez is as bad as he was in 2020? Is Bryant a lost cause because he stank in 2020?

You can win a WS by getting hot at the right time. All you do is get to the post season and see what happens.

I know many of you have been fans for 20/30/40 years. I've been a NYY fan for >50 years. If the NYY did what the Cubs seem destined to do this off season, I would say "screw this" and find something else to do with my fandom.

What did you do in the 80’s with your fandom?

 

[lucas80]

I get it, and I get if other people agree with you. I’d rather finish last than win 80 games.

80 games wins the NL Central this year.
Then, you just gotta get hot in the playoffs and pull a Cardinals.

 

[MitchLL]

What did you do in the 80’s with your fandom?

Cheering for a franchise that has nearly 30 titles means the next great run is never far off. With the NYY, you just know there will ALWAYS be another great run. It's a bit different than cheering for a team with one WS title in it's history.

There's a reason the Cubs have been dubbed the "Loveable Losers".

 

[HawkRugged17]

Cheering for a franchise that has nearly 30 titles means the next great run is never far off. With the NYY, you just know there will ALWAYS be another great run. It's a bit different than cheering for a team with one WS title in it's history.

There's a reason the Cubs have been dubbed the "Loveable Losers".

The Cubs have 3 World Series titles. 1907, 1908, and 2016.

The Yankees didn't make the playoffs from 1982 to 1994 (strike season - they were in 1st place when strike happened). They (George) spent more than any team and couldn't win anything (see link for some of the fun transactions they tried). It happens. And you stayed a fan.

The 1980s were a Rough Decade for the Yankees - 1980s Baseball

Eric Kabakoff details his love for the New York Yankees despite a rocky start to his fanhood

www.80sbaseball.com

The Darvish trade doesn't necessarily mean the 'white flag' has been waved. Let's see what happens next.

 

[blhawk]

Cheering for a franchise that has nearly 30 titles means the next great run is never far off. With the NYY, you just know there will ALWAYS be another great run. It's a bit different than cheering for a team with one WS title in it's history.

There's a reason the Cubs have been dubbed the "Loveable Losers".

Yeah, it takes a real fan to root for the Yankees being from the midwest. Pathetic. The Cubs have 3 WS titles and same amount as the Skankees in the last 20 years. Loveable losers? Are you braska fan living 20 years ago? Cubs have won division 6x in last 20 years and made 4 NLCS and have made playoffs 5 of 6 yrs, go pick on another franchise....there are plenty who have taken the "loser" title over

 

[HawkRugged17]

Yeah, it takes a real fan to root for the Yankees being from the midwest. Pathetic. The Cubs have 3 WS titles and same amount as the Skankees in the last 20 years. Loveable losers? Are you braska fan living 20 years ago? Cubs have won division 6x in last 20 years and made 4 NLCS and have made playoffs 5 of 6 yrs, go pick on another franchise....there are plenty who have taken the "loser" title over

Have this picture hanging in my house. It's from 1948 (a mere 3 years since the Cubs had been in the '45 World Series). That Normal Rockwell was quite the character.

 

[MitchLL]

Yeah, it takes a real fan to root for the Yankees being from the midwest. Pathetic. The Cubs have 3 WS titles and same amount as the Skankees in the last 20 years. Loveable losers? Are you braska fan living 20 years ago? Cubs have won division 6x in last 20 years and made 4 NLCS and have made playoffs 5 of 6 yrs, go pick on another franchise....there are plenty who have taken the "loser" title over

You picking out a "20 year" time frame is funny. Obviously the only period you can make such a ridiculous comparison.

Try again. No objective MLB fan will ever be able to argue the fact that the Yankees and the Cardinals are the gold standard in baseball.

 

[cidhawkeye]

You picking out a "20 year" time frame is funny. Obviously the only period you can make such a ridiculous comparison.

Try again. No objective MLB fan will ever be able to argue the fact that the Yankees and the Cardinals are the gold standard in baseball.

They pick a 20 year time frame and you choose to discredit it.
Yet in your original post you pick ‘one off season’ to tell people to rethink their fandom.
Seems like a consistent approach....... to you.

 

[MitchLL]

They pick a 20 year time frame and you choose to discredit it.
Yet in your original post you pick ‘one off season’ to tell people to rethink their fandom.
Seems like a consistent approach....... to you.

One off season? Cubs mgmt has announced a "reboot". This ain't no quick fix with an organization that has basically no decent farm system.

Just remember the words of Jed Hoyer... "We want to be like the Yankees".

 

[MuscoHawk]

This is frustrating. Part of Theo’s plan was to remain competitive and not have to blow it up again. He really left a dumpster fire.

 

[lucas80]

This is frustrating. Part of Theo’s plan was to remain competitive and not have to blow it up again. He really left a dumpster fire.

Theo's biggest problem in my opinion was keeping Jason MacLeod for as long as he did. He sucked at his job.

 

[LuteHawk]

@MitchLL.....I have been a NY Yankee my entire life.
Their 27 World Series Championships are the envy of
every other MLB team. Hall of Famers like Ruth, Gehrig
DiMaggio, Mantle, Jeter bring awe and respect.

There is plenty of chatter today about the Chicago Cubs
not acting like a Big City Franchise. When compared to
the New York Yankees and L.A. Dodgers they are not willing
to spend money every year to win a World Series.

 

[chalupa81]

Why is everyone complaining? They got for Darvish what someone was willing to give them, plain and simple. You want them to trot the same team out there next year so we can complain about their offense again and another first round playoff exit like the previous couple years? If you follow along, the Cubs farm is starting to get a lot better. With these 4 added, they are saying by end of 2021 they could be in that 15 range. They get dinged in the rankings by not having the top tier MLB ready talent, but they have a lot of players (10+) that could start cracking the top 100 by end of next year. Sign a couple of players on 1 yr deals and try to flip them for more talent at the deadline which is how they got Arrieta, Strop, Caratini, etc. You can even do so for Davies if they aren’t contending in the bad central.

You reset for a year or two and then start get it going again.

 

[HawkeyesAndCubs1023]

Why is everyone complaining? They got for Darvish what someone was willing to give them, plain and simple. You want them to trot the same team out there next year so we can complain about their offense again and another first round playoff exit like the previous couple years? If you follow along, the Cubs farm is starting to get a lot better. With these 4 added, they are saying by end of 2021 they could be in that 15 range. They get dinged in the rankings by not having the top tier MLB ready talent, but they have a lot of players (10+) that could start cracking the top 100 by end of next year. Sign a couple of players on 1 yr deals and try to flip them for more talent at the deadline which is how they got Arrieta, Strop, Caratini, etc. You can even do so for Davies if they aren’t contending in the bad central.

You reset for a year or two and then start get it going again.

I agree. These hard decisions were always going to happen, because of the lousy job that the Cubs front office did from November 3, 2016 until the end of 2019 when Theo Epstein awoke from his slumber and revamped the scouting department.

It has been exacerbated due to COVID and the Ricketts being more heavily invested in real estate around the ballpark than other ownership groups (no fans = bigger losses), but a reset and slight teardown always needed to happen because unlike the Dodgers, the Cubs did not continue developing talent during their successful seasons.

At an overall level, you cannot be too mad at owners for not spending big dollars on free agents. Baseball's contract structure is broken, due to the fact that most players are late prime or even past prime by the time they hit free agency. There is little incentive for owners to spend big on free agents over the age of 30. Jon Lester's deal was great for the Cubs, and Max Scherzer's deal with Washington was an all-timer, but the majority of large free agent deals do not work out well for the franchise.

 

[MitchLL]

@MitchLL.....I have been a NY Yankee my entire life.
Their 27 World Series Championships are the envy of
every other MLB team. Hall of Famers like Ruth, Gehrig
DiMaggio, Mantle, Jeter bring awe and respect.

There is plenty of chatter today about the Chicago Cubs
not acting like a Big City Franchise. When compared to
the New York Yankees and L.A. Dodgers they are not willing
to spend money every year to win a World Series.

Cub mgmt has no motivation to consistently field a winning team. NYY/LAD are in entertainment hubs and are competing for the consumer spending habits. Fans won't show up in NY or LA if the product on the field isn't competitive.

The Ricketts know they will always have tix demand and can get their share of TV revenue. They don't don't need a winning team on the field. The WS title in 2016 was a fluke. Cub's fans know that. The Cubs are now falling back to being "meh".

You have to kind of marvel at Cub fans on this forum that hold out hope that this team can be in the mix for playoff contention. It appears there's a long dry spell developing.

 

[blhawk]

You picking out a "20 year" time frame is funny. Obviously the only period you can make such a ridiculous comparison.

Try again. No objective MLB fan will ever be able to argue the fact that the Yankees and the Cardinals are the gold standard in baseball.

Wasn't arguing they don't have the most titles but when they were racking up rings there were 16 teams in league.....there are almost twice that now and in the last 20 years the Yankees have won 1x so your original statement about the next great run never being far off is just bullshit and why the last 20 years is relevant.....there's real competition now. You losers haven't even won a pennant this last decade, I can see why you'd want to live in the past

You are a husker if you wanna be cocky as hell wile ignoring what has happened this century.....THE ONE MOST OF US REMEMBER! Baseball fans know yankees fans are in a league of their own with the ignorance/arrogance combo. Congrats on hammering that point home

Red Sox and Dodgers are the gold standard these days

 

[MitchLL]

Wasn't arguing they don't have the most titles but when they were racking up rings there were 16 teams in league.....there are almost twice that now and in the last 20 years the Yankees have won 1x so your original statement about the next great run never being far off is ignorant bullshit and why the last 20 years is relevant.....there's real competition now

You are a husker if you wanna be cocky as hell wile ignoring what has happened this century.....THE ONE MOST OF US REMEMBER! Baseball fans know yankees fans are in a league of their own with the ignorance/arrogance combo. Congrats on hammering that point home

Butthurt much? Even if you want to use the results of this century to compare the two franchises... I'll take the Yankees results every time.

BTW: The number of teams in MLB is not relevant to any argument. Not sure why you feel it is?

Prepare to be insignificant for the future.

 

[lucas80]

Why is everyone complaining? They got for Darvish what someone was willing to give them, plain and simple. You want them to trot the same team out there next year so we can complain about their offense again and another first round playoff exit like the previous couple years? If you follow along, the Cubs farm is starting to get a lot better. With these 4 added, they are saying by end of 2021 they could be in that 15 range. They get dinged in the rankings by not having the top tier MLB ready talent, but they have a lot of players (10+) that could start cracking the top 100 by end of next year. Sign a couple of players on 1 yr deals and try to flip them for more talent at the deadline which is how they got Arrieta, Strop, Caratini, etc. You can even do so for Davies if they aren’t contending in the bad central.

You reset for a year or two and then start get it going again.

Keep in mind that the guy complaining the most in this thread is a Yankees fan.

 

[dgordo]

Cub mgmt has no motivation to consistently field a winning team. NYY/LAD are in entertainment hubs and are competing for the consumer spending habits. Fans won't show up in NY or LA if the product on the field isn't competitive.

The Ricketts know they will always have tix demand and can get their share of TV revenue. They don't don't need a winning team on the field. The WS title in 2016 was a fluke. Cub's fans know that. The Cubs are now falling back to being "meh".

You have to kind of marvel at Cub fans on this forum that hold out hope that this team can be in the mix for playoff contention. It appears there's a long dry spell developing.

there was nothing fluky about that. That team core was very competitive for 6 seasons. Ownership wanted to win and was motivated to make it happen. They have Theo all he wanted and more, likely too much. Then a global pandemic happened and all that financial modeling they did that told them how much they could borrow didn’t anticipate that. Ownership has a different goal now.

 

[hawkifann]

Cub mgmt has no motivation to consistently field a winning team. NYY/LAD are in entertainment hubs and are competing for the consumer spending habits. Fans won't show up in NY or LA if the product on the field isn't competitive.

The Ricketts know they will always have tix demand and can get their share of TV revenue. They don't don't need a winning team on the field. The WS title in 2016 was a fluke. Cub's fans know that. The Cubs are now falling back to being "meh".

You have to kind of marvel at Cub fans on this forum that hold out hope that this team can be in the mix for playoff contention. It appears there's a long dry spell developing.

This is such a tired old BS argument. The Ricketts could have gone the way of the Marlins after 2016 and sold off the parts (probably pretty damn high, actually) and gone cheap. They didn’t. They’ve continued to be at or over the luxury tax threshold. I’ve been hearing this argument for my 40 years of fandom, but outside of a couple short windows, it’s just never been true. The Cubs almost always spend more than enough money to win - they just haven’t had the baseball infrastructure in place to develop and pump out ML talent consistently over time. If the Cubs have that in place, they’ll have plenty of windows to win.

 

[torbee]

I am resigned to treating Wrigley as nothing more than the world’s largest open-air bar again for at least the next 5 years. 🙁

 

[dgordo]

I am resigned to treating Wrigley as nothing more than the world’s largest open-air bar again for at least the next 5 years. 🙁

i don’t think it’s going to be 5 years. The spending will pick up when fans are back.

 

[torbee]

i don’t think it’s going to be 5 years. The spending will pick up when fans are back.

Hope so

 

[lucas80]

Mitch seems to be theorizing that the Cubs got lucky and won the WS in 2016, and were horrible and didn’t try in 2015, 2017....

 

[MuscoHawk]

The Ricketts know they will always have tix demand...

This isn’t really true anymore. I lived across the street from Wrigley during the rebuild and I could walk up to the stadium and buy a ticket an hour before a game, no problem. They weren’t selling out. These days, fans won’t go to the games if the product is garbage.

 

[MitchLL]

This isn’t really true anymore. I lived across the street from Wrigley during the rebuild and I could walk up to the stadium and buy a ticket an hour before a game, no problem. They weren’t selling out. These days, fans won’t go to the games if the product is garbage.

If the stadium is filled... does it make a difference if the sales are "walk up"?

Wrigley is a tiny ballpark. Similar to Fenway. Without researching it, I imagine the lion's share of owner revenue comes from TV and Cable deals. I'm not familiar with the area around Wrigley, do the Ricketts have any property in the area?

 

[MitchLL]

Mitch seems to be theorizing that the Cubs got lucky and won the WS in 2016, and were horrible and didn’t try in 2015, 2017....

My point is the farm system has been dogshit for awhile now, and by Hoyer's statement, he can't afford to keep this team together. Getting all those no names from the Padres is a crap shoot to developing the farm system. Unless Hoyer thinks he can turn those prospects into better offers from other teams.

There just doesn't seem like many of the bigger names will draw much interest before the trade deadline next summer. Of all the Cub starters, I think WC is the guy that brings the best return in a trade.