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Only For The Mature BB Fan - Freddie Brown

Is my memory playing tricks on me or did Fred's son play here briefly?

Yes...redshirted in 1992-93....but was pretty much guaranteed to not be eligible in 93-94 so I don't think he even practiced with the team once 2nd semester began.. He was not very intelligent and quite lazy, a terrible combination.
 
I was just reading about the 69-70 team recently, they averaged over 100 points per game in conference and went 14-0.

Scoring averages: John Johnson 27.9, Chad Calabria 19.1, Fred Brown 17.9, Glenn Vidnovic 17.3

Johnson's kid ended up playing at Stanford and Calabria's kid at UNC. Fun fact: Dante Calabria used to wear a wristband with the number 40 on it, he was friends with Chris Street.
 
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Yes...redshirted in 1992-93....but was pretty much guaranteed to not be eligible in 93-94 so I don't think he even practiced with the team once 2nd semester began.. He was not very intelligent and quite lazy, a terrible combination.

Found this online about Fred Jr
http://www.seattlebasketballservices.com/sbs-staff.html

Also found a Freddy Brown III who plays at Nathan Hale HS in Seattle. Class of '18, possibly his son?
 
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I was just reading about the 69-70 team recently, they averaged over 100 points per game in conference and went 14-0.

Scoring averages: John Johnson 27.9, Chad Calabria 19.1, Fred Brown 17.9, Glenn Vidnovic 17.3

Johnson's kid ended up playing at Stanford and Calabria's kid at UNC. Fun fact: Dante Calabria used to wear a wristband with the number 40 on it, he was friends with Chris Street.

And, no 3 point line. ;)
 
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Found this online about Fred Jr
http://www.seattlebasketballservices.com/sbs-staff.html

Also found a Freddy Brown III who plays at Nathan Hale HS in Seattle. Class of '18, possibly his son?
Found this online about Fred Jr
http://www.seattlebasketballservices.com/sbs-staff.html

Also found a Freddy Brown III who plays at Nathan Hale HS in Seattle. Class of '18, possibly his son?
So if I understand the first publication you noted, Fred Brown beat out both Chris Kingsbery and Andre Woolridge while he played at Iowa. Who knew?!? (Must have been while I was hanging around with my old friend Jack Daniels!)
 
I was just reading about the 69-70 team recently, they averaged over 100 points per game in conference and went 14-0.

Scoring averages: John Johnson 27.9, Chad Calabria 19.1, Fred Brown 17.9, Glenn Vidnovic 17.3

Johnson's kid ended up playing at Stanford and Calabria's kid at UNC. Fun fact: Dante Calabria used to wear a wristband with the number 40 on it, he was friends with Chris Street.
Imagine what those averages, (and the teams avg/gm), would have been with the three point shot? JJ and FB had really nice careers with the Sonics as well.
 
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Hey, old timers! I'm not that young, either. Give us some bullet points as to how basketball has changed, so that i can better understand.

I remember seeing names like Peth and Sky King in the paper before I became enlightened enough to fully embrace Hawkeye basketball as my favorite sports team. Lute's FF run was my beginning.
 
Hey, old timers! I'm not that young, either. Give us some bullet points as to how basketball has changed, so that i can better understand.

I remember seeing names like Peth and Sky King in the paper before I became enlightened enough to fully embrace Hawkeye basketball as my favorite sports team. Lute's FF run was my beginning.

Good beginning. Sounds like I'm only a few years ahead of you.

This is my opinion based on observation.

Physical defense arrived in the early seventies. A big reason, Bobby Knight. Here's a good example but you won't believe that was considered a physical game...but it was.



The second problem came with tv timeouts. Now massive bigs could get the rest they needed.

Eventually Keady at Purdue introduced modern maul ball and it's been around since. Here's a game from last year, just watch what they do to Jok, forget the rest.



For shooting, Fred Brown, Peter Jok...I'd like to see what Jok would have looked like in 1970. :)
 
Hey, old timers! I'm not that young, either. Give us some bullet points as to how basketball has changed, so that i can better understand.

I remember seeing names like Peth and Sky King in the paper before I became enlightened enough to fully embrace Hawkeye basketball as my favorite sports team. Lute's FF run was my beginning.
Dan's point is that the game has become way too physical to allow the offenses to flow. There have been some limited attempts to fix this issue by tweeking the rules, but officials seem to disregard the muggings and hand checking that go on by the MSU's and Wisconsins of the BIG. Hmmmm, makes you wonder about the pecking order in the BIG, if they actually enforced the rules as they are supposed to be called. The fact is that the athletes of today, are too big, strong, and quick for the floor their playing on. If their allowed to hand check or throw a hip into players coming off a screen, its very difficult to get open shots. That not the way the game was played in the 70's.
 
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team can't score like that even with the three point line these days. The physical nature of the game has robbed us of beauty.

This. Although this is a topic for another day I do think DanL53 is right on the money - many modern day "basketball" fans have no idea they arn't really watching basketball.

Have to disagree, fairly vehemently. Ralph Miller, whose bona fides in this conversation include coaching Freddy at Iowa, while nearing retirement at Oregon State in the late 80's, was quoted as saying coaching the game of basketball had not changed in 40 years. Having just finished an Iowa conference career and 3 years post grad in IC finding the right pickup games, I bristled and was pissed. C'mon, you're comparing set shots to the fast and quick and strong and above the rim ability required of today's game?

Yes, yes he was and I get it-I'd now say it 40 years in my memory and I believe Ralph that it is really 70. The beauty of the game is found in the fact that a team can be more than the sum of its parts, and watching collegiate men demonstrate the skills of the game is both a) aesthetically pleasing and b) the basis for incredibly entertaining competition. Part of that competition will always be which team is faster, quicker, stronger, bigger, gets higher, shoots better etc ietc etc etc, see a. But the rest of it doesn't change much at all, see b. And while the trend and base lines for size and strength and speed will always be up, tread real lightly in assuming guys like Freddie and JJ-who battled for more than a decade with the likes of Wilt and Kareem and Walton and Oscar and West and Baylor and Maravich and Magic--or anybody else who excelled in their era- wouldn't be every bit as great in today's game.

If you watched Miller's six pack, primarily 4 transcendent players (Fred Brown, John Johnson, Chad Calabria, and Glenn Vidnovic) with mad skillz around generally competent center play, and then watched GS, primarily 4 transcendent players with mad skillz around generally competent center play, won't see a lot of difference. I'd even suggest if you broke down the film you'd see, on an x and o in the open court basis, players on both teams making the exact same choices repeatedly when presented with similar circumstances.

For shooting, Fred Brown, Peter Jok...I'd like to see what Jok would have looked like in 1970. :)

Surprised you don't remember Freddie better, cause imo there is simply no comparison. Watch the NBA all-star game in 76 when Freddy scored 14 points in the 3rd quarter? The NBA finals in 78, when he had to be a one-man offense for long stretches and could not be stopped by the entire Bullet's team? Finals in 79 when he and JJ together were part of the core of the world's best team? '71 when he averaged 30 in the field house? Enjoy the 22 years he was the career scoring leader for an NBA franchise?

Pretty subjective of course. Put Freddie open anywhere, and I do mean anywhere (Bill Fitch was asked about the limit to Freddie's effective range, and he responded the popcorn stand), and I'll take him but Jok, Kingsbury, McCausland, and lots of other guys could really really really shoot it too. But Freddie didn't have to be open, he could get it off with multiple defenders, and he'd float and pump first if needed. Always ended with the magic that lived in his wrist, never seen anything like it.

One of my favorite Freddie moments was at Bobby Hanson's first alumni fundraiser game. Freddie was pretty long in the tooth, didn't really play long but he showed up and SURPRISE made multiple 3s. Announcer had a sideline interview with him after his short stint, gushing about his 3s and proving he can still shoot from deep, Freddie responded, "meh, feel pretty guilty taking 3 points for that" while gesturing to the top of the key.
 
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Here's another Freddie story, pure hearsay. Have a cousin that grew up in Burlington and attended some of his JC games. Swears vehemently to this day the coach and team had a well understood and accepted agreement about the game plan. Start of the game, Freddie shoots till he misses.
 
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I appreciate the post, @LifelongHawk, but I don't see much we disagree with. Did you even talk about how physical the game is these days? And, I was ten the last time Fred Brown played at Iowa.

If you watch much of the 76' game between Michigan and Indiana you will hear the announcers comment on Indiana's size as all five starters are over 200lbs. Wow...not much of a rarity these days. And the bigs? Even Kent Benson. Do they look muscle bound to you?

No, the game is much more physical today and the scores reflect it. That's why the shot clock, the three point line, and the NCAA constantly trying to get officials to call more fouls.

But like I said, I appreciate your post.
 
I've always thought Bill Musselman had a hand in making things more physical in the B10.

Might want to look for the MN/OSU Luke Witte brawl for a good idea. Those MN teams were very thuggish. Bunch of goons when it gets right down to it.
 
Did you even talk about how physical the game is these days?

Do you even remember how physical the game was those days? Do you really think the nature of the game changes much when your path to the lane is cut off by Wes Unseld at 6'8" or Kevin Durant at 6'11", Mike Gatens at 6'6" or Jack Nunge at 6'11", Jacob Jaakes at 6'8" or Reggie Evans or Houston Breedlove or Neil Fegabank or whoever at large man? You think the game is significantly more physical that when it led Isaiah to punch Krafcisn? You think it was a picnic to cross the lane vs Krafcisn Waite Gatens Tree Henry and Nate Robinson when you were college age? Noses broke.

And I'll add this personal caveat with regard to the physical nature of the game In YOUR era (I was 11 when Freddie graduated, that's why I don't mention his college career much, attended 2 games but didn't really understand what I was seeing....his pro career however unfolded while I was a teenage gym rat). For me at least, the game was physical enough that after the back surgery from being undercut that eliminated my last semester of ex-collegiate guy pick up games, I had to accept that the cost of all the playing I did was good health. Can point to about every square inch of my body and tell a story of a bball injury. Literally. Show scars and marks and demonstrate disability from a couple of em too. So you telling me I played in an era that was not physical? Sorry, rings false I have to disagree. I might even add that in those days you could get away with grabbing the point of a guys hip much more than today, and for me the nature of that physical act changed the game a lot more than a change in average height, weight, and bench press. Which of course makes the nature of the game somewhat less physical today as keeping that pri&^ off your hip is no longer an essential skill.

Based on personal experience then I'd put it this way. The physical nature of the game, then and now, requires every iota of physical energy available be invested without regard to fatigue, existing injury,or the potential for injury/long term ramifications. Maximum effort, maximum application of whatever size and speed and skills you have available is required to win the best games. That hasn't and isn't likely to ever change, even as the physics of size and speed change marginally. The beauty of the clash between size and speed and skills and luck and teamwork and bounces and zebras and coaches and shooters carries on largely unchanged.
 
Another Freddie memory, love em.

Scene: 1980, Sonics looking to repeat. Seattle v Milwaukee in the Western Semis for the right to be favorites against Kareem, the Lakers and their good but rookie point guard. Bucks were loaded, Bob Lanier and Sidney Moncrief and Brian Winters and Marquis Johnson, their time had come. Fantastic well played series, back and forth, goes to game 7. Close tough (and I might add, unbelievably physical) game. Then, voila, midway through the 3rd Freddie went off. Way off, 14 in 5 minutes or something like that. If you never had the pleasure, when that dude made a couple it was a truly amazing joy. Knowing he was gonna shoot again, knowing the defense knew he was gonna shoot again, but knowing he could get a shot and just might make this one. Again, and again, and again, and yet again. Go Hawks!

Anyway, it was Musberger* and some old has been named Bill Russell announcing. In the last minute, game decided, they started discussing MVP. Russell went into a spiel, would love to see a transcript. Something about great series, great players, great teams, best of nba competition, but the real difference in this game and this series was Fred Brown. Went on some from there about his ability and performance. Pretty heady bball stuff for the lil ole Hawkeyes.

*Musberger really loved him some John Johnson. Called him JJ, frequently made calls like "JJ rises up." Credited him (falsely no doubt) with inventing the whipped behind the back pass from the wing to a cutter. Musberger really loved him some JJ.
 
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In 1980 I was following the Bucks more closely than I do now. That series presented a dilemma for me: Freddie was a local kid that I had watched in HS and who had done well, returning to his hometown in the NBA playoffs; Sydney, a special player from the University of Alabama, was my favorite NBA player who happened to playfor my hometown NBA franchise. Despite mixed emotions, I was pulling for the Bucks. Their elimination by Seattle had, for me, a silver lining.

Sydney proved (sorry Dan) that there is a place for tenacious defense in basketball. Remarkably, he was outstanding offensively and defensively. If I were coaching basketball today, I would have my team watch some film of Sydney Moncrief.
 
I'm enjoying the conversations, whether we agree or not.

There are two complete games above. I feel pretty comfortable they show how much more physical the game is today. And please, if we are going to compare apples to apples stick to college ball.
 
In 1980 I was following the Bucks more closely than I do now. That series presented a dilemma for me: Freddie was a local kid that I had watched in HS and who had done well, returning to his hometown in the NBA playoffs; Sydney, a special player from the University of Alabama, was my favorite NBA player who happened to playfor my hometown NBA franchise. Despite mixed emotions, I was pulling for the Bucks. Their elimination by Seattle had, for me, a silver lining.

Sydney proved (sorry Dan) that there is a place for tenacious defense in basketball. Remarkably, he was outstanding offensively and defensively. If I were coaching basketball today, I would have my team watch some film of Sydney Moncrief.
Good story except Moncrief played his college ball at Arkansas. I too was a Bucks fan.
 
I wasn't a Hawk fan early enough to watch Freddie, JJ, etc at Iowa, but got to see Freddie light it up for over 50 points in an NBA game live in Cleveland. There was no 3-point shot, and he scored from almost anywhere on the court with a variety of shots. It was one of the most incredible shooting displays I have seen in over 50 years of watching BB. I believe he missed 1 shot and took less than 10 FTS, so he must have been something like 24 out of 25 from the field.

I believe that the lack of flow to offenses is the result of both more physical defensive play away from the basket (it was even rougher near the basket in the "old days") and players learning to play more one-on-one skills, instead of learning to pass and move without the ball. In the "old days" guys were taught to pass and move, and execution emphasized that the ball touch several hands with minimal dribbling. You see that more with Golden State than most teams. I am a Rocket fan, but Houston is the opposite extreme, and I hate watching that type of play...
 
I'm enjoying the conversations, whether we agree or not.

There are two complete games above. I feel pretty comfortable they show how much more physical the game is today. And please, if we are going to compare apples to apples stick to college ball.

Due respect, nothing but get off my lawnism. Linking one game from the 70s involving a Johnny Orr coached team proves nada. Link a John Thompson coached game from the early 80s maybe we can talk. Or a Gene Keady coached game from the 40s.

Not sure at what point in time you think this magical change in the nature of the game happened. Have to think we can agree that the game of basketball cannot be more physical than when you have either Jacob Jaakes or Reggie Evans in the lane. Hawkeyes so I rooted for them to win games, but absolute goons that the rules/zebras allowed to thrive. Disagree I’ll recalibrate, but you probably think it was before 2000.

In the late 70s and early 80s you had Purdue coming to town. Joe Barry Carroll, Russell Cross, Jim Rowinski (Mr. Beach) et al. Keady would bring those monsters in and play a sagging zone with no shot clock and the halftime score was routinely teens to teens. With the hand checking, arm bars, and outright grabbing that was allowed in those days, forget cutting across the lane with any quickness, simply not possible. Even freaking getting to the block during a dead ball was a challenge. I might add the rules about swinging elbows were different then too, the rule was you get your head around the ballhandlers shoulders at your own risk. Wanna see a 7 stitch scar?

Remember Michael Graham and his Georgetown brethren in 85? He played much like Reggie Evans, almost entirely within the rules of the game as applied in those days but essentially felonious conduct.

We could just stick to Hawkeye ball and fieldhouse pick up games. Remember Mike Gatens? Great guy, loved to play the game, probably could’ve played more in football but loved hoops. Raised perhaps the greatest Hawkeye ever in the sense of loyalty to the program. Never ever intentionally dirty at all, but a physical beast in the lane more than willing to make up a disadvantage in quickness or skills with physical stuff. Here’s a quote overheard multiple times in the fieldhouse….”OUCH! FU” “Sorry, just playing hard.” “Fing goon” “hee hee” Fights/punches would happen, but usually the hee hee was the end because of the shared knowledge and experience of the game's physicality. You talk about feeling comfortable in an opinion, here's a comfortable one.....you put a 22 year old Mike Gatens in today's game and his takeaway would not be gee the game has gotten physical.

We can agree to disagree, but I’ll continue to think your data set is flawed and you have no memory or understanding of just how physical the game of college basketball was when you were of college age.

I wasn't a Hawk fan early enough to watch Freddie, JJ, etc at Iowa, but got to see Freddie light it up for over 50 points in an NBA game live in Cleveland. There was no 3-point shot, and he scored from almost anywhere on the court with a variety of shots. It was one of the most incredible shooting displays I have seen in over 50 years of watching BB. I believe he missed 1 shot and took less than 10 FTS, so he must have been something like 24 out of 25 from the field.

I believe that the lack of flow to offenses is the result of both more physical defensive play away from the basket (it was even rougher near the basket in the "old days") and players learning to play more one-on-one skills, instead of learning to pass and move without the ball. In the "old days" guys were taught to pass and move, and execution emphasized that the ball touch several hands with minimal dribbling. You see that more with Golden State than most teams. I am a Rocket fan, but Houston is the opposite extreme, and I hate watching that type of play...

And gears shift totally to JEALOUSY! How cool is that story? You have your iphone with you to post a video, lol? You mention a variety of shots, that's really what I remember most about his nba play, especially that 78 finals loss when he was a one man offense for stretches. He'd be dribbling in a crowd, juke, fake, leave his feet, float, pump, and somehow someway at some point in his arc have an opening to release the magic.....

Agree with 2nd paragraph. One reason GS is so fun to watch for me is they are totally a throw back, every players first move is always look ahead and move it on if there is potential advantage ahead. Actually saw a glimpse of that collective attitude from the Hawks in their one streamed game in Germany during the big 3rd quarter run.

Finally agree wholeheartedly on the skills point. Watch espn or any highlight package, or watch a group of collegians messing around, and you'd think the only possible way to make points are the dunk or the 3.
 
Due respect, nothing but get off my lawnism. Linking one game from the 70s involving a Johnny Orr coached team proves nada. Link a John Thompson coached game from the early 80s maybe we can talk. Or a Gene Keady coached game from the 40s.

Not sure at what point in time you think this magical change in the nature of the game happened. Have to think we can agree that the game of basketball cannot be more physical than when you have either Jacob Jaakes or Reggie Evans in the lane. Hawkeyes so I rooted for them to win games, but absolute goons that the rules/zebras allowed to thrive. Disagree I’ll recalibrate, but you probably think it was before 2000.

In the late 70s and early 80s you had Purdue coming to town. Joe Barry Carroll, Russell Cross, Jim Rowinski (Mr. Beach) et al. Keady would bring those monsters in and play a sagging zone with no shot clock and the halftime score was routinely teens to teens. With the hand checking, arm bars, and outright grabbing that was allowed in those days, forget cutting across the lane with any quickness, simply not possible. Even freaking getting to the block during a dead ball was a challenge. I might add the rules about swinging elbows were different then too, the rule was you get your head around the ballhandlers shoulders at your own risk. Wanna see a 7 stitch scar?

Remember Michael Graham and his Georgetown brethren in 85? He played much like Reggie Evans, almost entirely within the rules of the game as applied in those days but essentially felonious conduct.

We could just stick to Hawkeye ball and fieldhouse pick up games. Remember Mike Gatens? Great guy, loved to play the game, probably could’ve played more in football but loved hoops. Raised perhaps the greatest Hawkeye ever in the sense of loyalty to the program. Never ever intentionally dirty at all, but a physical beast in the lane more than willing to make up a disadvantage in quickness or skills with physical stuff. Here’s a quote overheard multiple times in the fieldhouse….”OUCH! FU” “Sorry, just playing hard.” “Fing goon” “hee hee” Fights/punches would happen, but usually the hee hee was the end because of the shared knowledge and experience of the game's physicality. You talk about feeling comfortable in an opinion, here's a comfortable one.....you put a 22 year old Mike Gatens in today's game and his takeaway would not be gee the game has gotten physical.

We can agree to disagree, but I’ll continue to think your data set is flawed and you have no memory or understanding of just how physical the game of college basketball was when you were of college age.



And gears shift totally to JEALOUSY! How cool is that story? You have your iphone with you to post a video, lol? You mention a variety of shots, that's really what I remember most about his nba play, especially that 78 finals loss when he was a one man offense for stretches. He'd be dribbling in a crowd, juke, fake, leave his feet, float, pump, and somehow someway at some point in his arc have an opening to release the magic.....

Agree with 2nd paragraph. One reason GS is so fun to watch for me is they are totally a throw back, every players first move is always look ahead and move it on if there is potential advantage ahead. Actually saw a glimpse of that collective attitude from the Hawks in their one streamed game in Germany during the big 3rd quarter run.

Finally agree wholeheartedly on the skills point. Watch espn or any highlight package, or watch a group of collegians messing around, and you'd think the only possible way to make points are the dunk or the 3.

My time frame for when basketball began to get physical was stated in the first post on the subject. Everything you mention is after that and indeed one of your comments (about Gene Keady) was something I said in the first place.

Iowa 1970:

Fred Brown: 6'3" 182lbs. Is last on the right, second row:
AR-160129903.jpg&MaxH=500&MaxW=798


Wow, doesn't he show all of his 182 lbs. I'm not gong to find everyone's weight, unless I get lucky. As to height:

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/s...-to-unbeaten-big-ten-season-in-69-70-20160124

John Johnson was listed at 200lbs.

You put these guys on the court today...you'll see what physical basketball has done to the beauty of the game.
 
My time frame for when basketball began to get physical was stated in the first post

No its not. Here it is

A team can't score like that even with the three point line these days. The physical nature of the game has robbed us of beauty.

OK, see a later post you talk about the early 70s, and state you don't remember the six pack as they were before your time.

So you’re saying the game for the entire period of your existence as an aware fan hasn’t changed (I agree, from personal experience). Hope you recognize that you therefore are waxing about the beauty of something you never experienced or understood, and are holding this thing you don’t know or remember as some ideal of “beauty” gone awry. Fake news heritage :)

And on that topic I just say that I have no personal experience or recollection but bball people I respect, like Ralph Miller and Bill Russell, disagree.

But here’s where you really really really go off the rails:

You put these guys on the court today...you'll see what physical basketball has done to the beauty of the game

Put Freddie on the court today and you will see the beauty of the game. Period*. Put JJ on the court today and you'll see where the term point forward came from, a talented strong baller with unbelievable hand eye coordination, anticipation, timing, and innate understanding of movement.

This isn’t an everybody gets to have their opinion deal, there’s evidence. While Freddie and JJ as 1970 players are pretty much before either of our times, the exact same Freddie and JJ showed what they could do in the NBA for a dozen years or so right during our time. It is a FACT that they both thrived, and together won a championship, against Kareem, Walton, Lanier, Unseld, Marvin Barnes, Lonnie Shelton, Willis Reed, Dan Issel, Dave Cowens, M.L. Carr, and Maurice fricking Lucas to name just a few of the physical beasts they vanquished. Pretty sure if a few years removed from Iowa City they could best that lineup their 1970 selves could handle today's college game.

*ever hear a story of more beautiful basketball than Freddie's 50+ missing one shot?
 
No its not. Here it is



OK, see a later post you talk about the early 70s, and state you don't remember the six pack as they were before your time.

So you’re saying the game for the entire period of your existence as an aware fan hasn’t changed (I agree, from personal experience). Hope you recognize that you therefore are waxing about the beauty of something you never experienced or understood, and are holding this thing you don’t know or remember as some ideal of “beauty” gone awry. Fake news heritage :)

And on that topic I just say that I have no personal experience or recollection but bball people I respect, like Ralph Miller and Bill Russell, disagree.

But here’s where you really really really go off the rails:



Put Freddie on the court today and you will see the beauty of the game. Period*. Put JJ on the court today and you'll see where the term point forward came from, a talented strong baller with unbelievable hand eye coordination, anticipation, timing, and innate understanding of movement.

This isn’t an everybody gets to have their opinion deal, there’s evidence. While Freddie and JJ as 1970 players are pretty much before either of our times, the exact same Freddie and JJ showed what they could do in the NBA for a dozen years or so right during our time. It is a FACT that they both thrived, and together won a championship, against Kareem, Walton, Lanier, Unseld, Marvin Barnes, Lonnie Shelton, Willis Reed, Dan Issel, Dave Cowens, M.L. Carr, and Maurice fricking Lucas to name just a few of the physical beasts they vanquished. Pretty sure if a few years removed from Iowa City they could best that lineup their 1970 selves could handle today's college game.

*ever hear a story of more beautiful basketball than Freddie's 50+ missing one shot?

I don't remember them, but I have watched many, many games from the 70's and going back into the 50's, before I was born. There's this magic thing called You Tube and you can see lot's of games.

How's the scoring going by the way? Shot clocks, three point lines, emphasis on freedom of movement....how is it going? You talk about evidence?

Please don't point to the NBA as evidence of college basketball anything.
 
Was a student at UofI when the JJ & Freddie played. Went to most practices & never missed a game. Have followed the Hawks BB faithfully ever since & even before (loved watching Super Sam Williams in the old fieldhouse). I'll cast my vote for Dan in this little dust-up. The game has become much more physical - especially on the perimeter - since the 70's in my opinion. Much more pushing & shoving away from the basket that is tolerated by the officials.
 
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Everyone has an opinion but I don't like to argue or bicker back and forth about facts or old games on tv but without a doubt in my opinion the game has gotten much rougher. Just the high screen alone by the center on a point guard just about knees them every time. Then has a 25 foot full head of steam to the block to pound on somebody else . No beauty in that at all. I'll side with DanL on this one. Loved watching Freddie Brown by the way.
 
Was a student at UofI when the JJ & Freddie played. Went to most practices & never missed a game. Have followed the Hawks BB faithfully ever since & even before (loved watching Super Sam Williams in the old fieldhouse). I'll cast my vote for Dan in this little dust-up. The game has become much more physical - especially on the perimeter - since the 70's in my opinion. Much more pushing & shoving away from the basket that is tolerated by the officials.

Just to be clear, agree about off ball activity, and would personally add the speed and frequency of help defense is off the charts different and better today.

But fundamentally different game? Nope.

Freddie and JJ wouldn't have beautiful collegiate games today? F nope.
 
Everyone has an opinion but I don't like to argue or bicker back and forth about facts or old games on tv but without a doubt in my opinion the game has gotten much rougher. Just the high screen alone by the center on a point guard just about knees them every time. Then has a 25 foot full head of steam to the block to pound on somebody else . No beauty in that at all. I'll side with DanL on this one. Loved watching Freddie Brown by the way.

Fair enough. Start with nutrition and strength and conditioning coaches and programs. Add in progress in average height and weight.* Bigger faster on average for sure, looks different to the eye.

*OK, here’s an aside. Size of feet. No comparison. Went to pick up a kid from Hawk’s hs camp couple years ago and just watched the young’uns walk past. Over size 12 looked average or below in that group, was fairly rare in my time.

But the game imo hasn’t changed. You mention high screens, my Ia conference team occasionally ran a 1/3/1 - I’ll put a clip of the 300 pound fat frick William Penn had playing Center and the zebras letting his blubber shift around the key (talk about moving screen, it was really more of a morphing screen) and lay all over our poor beleaguered 1 at the top (aaaarrrrggghhhh) against any physical play clip you care to find from today. Clips only in my head though, so hard to top-plus at circa early 80s its modern times if you ascribe to the game changed in the early 70s theory.
 
Lifelong, this is what you been arguing with:

"This is my opinion based on observation.

Physical defense arrived in the early seventies. A big reason, Bobby Knight. Here's a good example but you won't believe that was considered a physical game...but it was.

The second problem came with tv timeouts. Now massive bigs could get the rest they needed.

Eventually Keady at Purdue introduced modern maul ball and it's been around since. Here's a game from last year, just watch what they do to Jok, forget the rest.
"

Now that we are at the point where you are narrowing it down to early 80's, not early 70's, I guess we are mostly in agreement.

As to Brown and the rest of the Six-Pack, including a guy called "Stick" at power forward, I suppose if they were college players in 2017 they would have the strength and conditioning training, and the nutrients available to build muscle. And they would be excellent basketball players in today's game. But they would look nothing like that 1970 team...that team, given it's size...would get murdered today. I'm not talking score, though they would never average 100 + points. I'm talking physically shoved around.

I appreciate the conversation but as I stated, "This is my opinion.....", at some point you are just going to have to decide that DanL53 must be an idiot and leave it at that. My gosh, you sort of remind me of my Dad who used to recall his 1930's high school basketball team as having two seven foot players. A small school. Trying to figure out the odds of that.......:confused:

...until one day I heard him refer to himself as 6'0", when he was 5'8" at most.

Now, I love you man...you are a great Iowa fan and bless you and all that. No worries. But let me explain the problem a different way. Before and after:

atlasbig.jpg


Basketball changing the early 1970's. Too bad Joe lost 10% off his shooting percentage.
 
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I wasn't a Hawk fan early enough to watch Freddie, JJ, etc at Iowa, but got to see Freddie light it up for over 50 points in an NBA game live in Cleveland. There was no 3-point shot, and he scored from almost anywhere on the court with a variety of shots. It was one of the most incredible shooting displays I have seen in over 50 years of watching BB. I believe he missed 1 shot and took less than 10 FTS, so he must have been something like 24 out of 25 from the field.
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Freddie scored over 50 points once in an NBA game...on March 23rd, 1974 he scored 58 points against Golden State.at Golden State.
 
It is, I think, impossible for an objective observer of the college game in the 1960's to make a valid claim that the modern day game has not morphed into a much more phyiscal game. Simple comparisons in the style of 50 years ago and that which is vouge today would would reveal the obvious.

BTW - Leave the NBA out of this when talking about the college game...it has always been a rougher version of what was once thought of as a no-contact sport...and, in fact, is responsable for most of the techniques that have infected the college game.
 
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Burlington CC gameplan:

Fred shoots from 35-40' and in (sometimes dependent on how much cough syrup had been ingested that day).

Dick Gibbs gets in fights with the other team.

Pretty solid formula.
 
Freddie scored over 50 points once in an NBA game...on March 23rd, 1974 he scored 58 points against Golden State.at Golden State.
Before your post, I actually went back after I posted and searched for the game I was recalling. Best I found was one game where he scored over 40 (edit--42 on 12/30/76) and missed a few shots. That must have been the game I saw, and it was still an incredible shooting display. He usually didn't score a lot against Cleveland over the years, probably because he had to match with Jim Cleamons during some of those games. I guess everyone's memories get embellished (not intentional by me) as decades pass. Ronnie Lester could also walk on water:)
 
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Before your post, I actually went back after I posted and searched for the game I was recalling. Best I found was one game where he scored over 40 (edit--42 on 12/30/76) and missed a few shots. That must have been the game I saw, and it was still an incredible shooting display. He usually didn't score a lot against Cleveland over the years, probably because he had to match with Jim Cleamons during some of those games. I guess everyone's memories get embellished (not intentional by me) as decades pass. Ronnie Lester could also walk on water:)

Ronnie could walk on water and he's one guy I don't think we could embellish. Absolutely incredible player.
 
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