Mark T. Esper, who served Donald Trump as defense secretary, alleges in a new book that he witnessed the former president in the Oval Office suggesting that members of the military should shoot protesters “in the legs or something.” Esper suggests others were present during that meeting.
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Trump denies it. He says those witnesses present would back him up.
As it turns out, this is something that Congress might investigate and try to settle, one way or the other. Will Democrats act?
The key revelation, which Esper detailed in an interview on CBS News on Sunday, supposedly took place during an Oval Office meeting about protests against police brutality in early June 2020. Trump ranted at aides, said they were all “f---ing losers” and suggested deploying 10,000 troops to the streets of Washington, D.C.
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According to Esper, Trump said of the protesters, “Can’t you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something.”
The only individual Esper names as being in attendance is Vice President Mike Pence. But others seem to have been there as well, since Trump was ranting at numerous people present. CBS reports that Esper sent parts of his book to numerous members of the military establishment, and CBS claims to have verified some parts (it’s unclear which ones) with those witnesses.
And yet, asked for comment by CBS, Trump replied: “This is a complete lie, and 10 witnesses can back it up.”
So: Esper says senior people overheard Trump suggest having the military shoot Americans exercising their right to free speech, and Trump says 10 people will say it didn’t happen.
It shouldn’t be hard to settle the question. Given that the country deserves to know whether the former president suggested something so depraved and sociopathically autocratic — especially since he’s also the current leader of the GOP and will likely run for president again — this would seem to be something the House Armed Services Committee might want to probe.
“We need to flesh it out,” Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), a member of that committee, told us. “It goes against every principle of our nation for a president of the United States to threaten force against unarmed American citizens who are engaged in the right to protest.”
Democrats could begin by asking Esper which other officials were present. They could also ask Trump which 10 officials would back up his version of events; we all know he wouldn’t name them, but at least they could ask.
Then they could hold a hearing and invite Esper and the other officials to relate what they heard. The whole thing could be wrapped up in an afternoon, and we’d have a much better idea of if the president of the United States ordered a military assault on American civilians.
That’s not all. An investigation such as this could be designed to determine if this episode reveals the need for institutional reforms.
For instance, Khanna pointed out, Congress could examine if additional transparency safeguards and checks on a president’s authority in such situations are needed. For instance, perhaps top military officials should be required to notify Congress in situations where something appears seriously amiss.
Such a reform effort, Khanna said, “should be something that people on both sides can agree on.” Khanna suggested this could be pursued almost as a fact-finding effort, to determine “what are the checks on presidential power against American citizens.”
These revelations might also shed light on another poorly understood, but extremely consequential, moment during the Trump presidency.
You might recall that at around that time — on June 1, 2020 — Esper and Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, accompanied Trump on his walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op in which the president held up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church. This was just after peaceful protesters had been forcibly removed from the area.
Esper and Milley were properly humiliated for participating in that charade. Each man put out highly unusual statements: Esper declared that using “active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a last resort.” Milley reminded members of the military that their first loyalty is to “defend the Constitution.”
It was an intense moment in the country’s history, and alarms were being raised from many directions. Yet it was not uncommon at the time to hear people saying liberals’ response to the photo op was overblown.
What Esper has revealed is that behind the scenes, officials were trying to contain a president who had gone off the rails. In other words, the alarmist reading of that day appears to have been correct.
We need to know more about this episode. Democrats in Congress should get to the bottom of it.
When Republicans were in charge of Congress under Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, there was no fake scandal too ridiculous for them to hold any number of hearings about. So why shouldn’t Democrats hold just one hearing about something legitimately scandalous that Trump appears to have done?
Sign up for a weekly roundup of thought-provoking ideas and debates
Trump denies it. He says those witnesses present would back him up.
As it turns out, this is something that Congress might investigate and try to settle, one way or the other. Will Democrats act?
The key revelation, which Esper detailed in an interview on CBS News on Sunday, supposedly took place during an Oval Office meeting about protests against police brutality in early June 2020. Trump ranted at aides, said they were all “f---ing losers” and suggested deploying 10,000 troops to the streets of Washington, D.C.
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According to Esper, Trump said of the protesters, “Can’t you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something.”
The only individual Esper names as being in attendance is Vice President Mike Pence. But others seem to have been there as well, since Trump was ranting at numerous people present. CBS reports that Esper sent parts of his book to numerous members of the military establishment, and CBS claims to have verified some parts (it’s unclear which ones) with those witnesses.
And yet, asked for comment by CBS, Trump replied: “This is a complete lie, and 10 witnesses can back it up.”
So: Esper says senior people overheard Trump suggest having the military shoot Americans exercising their right to free speech, and Trump says 10 people will say it didn’t happen.
It shouldn’t be hard to settle the question. Given that the country deserves to know whether the former president suggested something so depraved and sociopathically autocratic — especially since he’s also the current leader of the GOP and will likely run for president again — this would seem to be something the House Armed Services Committee might want to probe.
“We need to flesh it out,” Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), a member of that committee, told us. “It goes against every principle of our nation for a president of the United States to threaten force against unarmed American citizens who are engaged in the right to protest.”
Democrats could begin by asking Esper which other officials were present. They could also ask Trump which 10 officials would back up his version of events; we all know he wouldn’t name them, but at least they could ask.
Then they could hold a hearing and invite Esper and the other officials to relate what they heard. The whole thing could be wrapped up in an afternoon, and we’d have a much better idea of if the president of the United States ordered a military assault on American civilians.
That’s not all. An investigation such as this could be designed to determine if this episode reveals the need for institutional reforms.
For instance, Khanna pointed out, Congress could examine if additional transparency safeguards and checks on a president’s authority in such situations are needed. For instance, perhaps top military officials should be required to notify Congress in situations where something appears seriously amiss.
Such a reform effort, Khanna said, “should be something that people on both sides can agree on.” Khanna suggested this could be pursued almost as a fact-finding effort, to determine “what are the checks on presidential power against American citizens.”
These revelations might also shed light on another poorly understood, but extremely consequential, moment during the Trump presidency.
You might recall that at around that time — on June 1, 2020 — Esper and Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, accompanied Trump on his walk across Lafayette Square for a photo op in which the president held up a Bible in front of St. John’s Church. This was just after peaceful protesters had been forcibly removed from the area.
Esper and Milley were properly humiliated for participating in that charade. Each man put out highly unusual statements: Esper declared that using “active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a last resort.” Milley reminded members of the military that their first loyalty is to “defend the Constitution.”
It was an intense moment in the country’s history, and alarms were being raised from many directions. Yet it was not uncommon at the time to hear people saying liberals’ response to the photo op was overblown.
What Esper has revealed is that behind the scenes, officials were trying to contain a president who had gone off the rails. In other words, the alarmist reading of that day appears to have been correct.
We need to know more about this episode. Democrats in Congress should get to the bottom of it.
When Republicans were in charge of Congress under Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, there was no fake scandal too ridiculous for them to hold any number of hearings about. So why shouldn’t Democrats hold just one hearing about something legitimately scandalous that Trump appears to have done?
