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Opinion: Florida’s vile ‘groomer’ law may soon blow up in DeSantis’s face

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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One of the more repulsive features of Florida’s new law restricting classroom discussion of sex and gender is its vagueness. This might be a feature, not a bug: It could encourage conservative parents to sniff out violators around every classroom corner, contributing to the atmosphere of moral panic it appears designed to stoke.
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But, in an example of how the worst-intentioned legislating can backfire on bad actors, the law’s vagueness might end up handing opponents a hidden weapon against it.
The Florida law that Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis signed last month empowers parents to take actions against offending school boards. But lawyers challenging it now tell me they think liberal parents might use this same tool to wage guerrilla legal resistance designed to expose its true intentions, making it more legally vulnerable.






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If so, it could help expose the epic bad faith at the core of this whole project, which employs such legislation to foment parents’ fear of an army of deviants out to pervert or indoctrinate their kids.


This week, the Florida legislature enters a special session, and a big question is how DeSantis will handle the backlash to the law amid Disney’s opposition. Some on the right — including DeSantis’s spokesperson — have slimed Disney and other critics as “groomers” out to prep kids for sex. Republicans might retaliate by revoking Disney’s tax breaks.
Kate Cohen: ‘Don’t say gay’ says ‘don’t say straight,’ too. Let’s exploit it.
But at the same time, a mode of resistance might be developing on the other side.
The Florida law bans any “instruction” on “sexual orientation or gender identity” in lower grades, and in higher grades requires such instruction to be age or developmentally “appropriate.” It also empowers parents to seek “damages” from school districts.







The glaring problems here are pointed out in a lawsuit challenging the measure brought by Florida residents and LGBTQ groups. The statutory terms are vague, which along with its parental enforcement scheme appears designed to chill discussion of anything that might arbitrarily be deemed a violation by parents stretching those terms to cover all manner of exchanges.
For instance, the lawsuit notes, couldn’t parents object to a teacher letting a student talk about her gay parents or letting a transgender student discuss her experiences? Couldn’t parents object to a teacher’s handling of the bullying of such students?
The tension here is that the law does not directly ban discussion of particular sexual orientations or gender identities. Drafters deliberately didn’t define its language, apparently to maintain superficial neutrality.







But as the lawsuit notes, the measure’s intent to target supposed transgressions involving LGBTQ people is plain from statements made by its chief sponsors and other circumstances.
So the lawsuit argues that the measure’s vagueness and discriminatory effects violate constitutional requirements of due process, equal protection of the law, and freedom of speech and expression, among other things.
We’ll see how that plays out in court. But for now, buried in this tension you can find a road map for resistance.
As the suit notes, the law plainly isn’t intended to ban discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity related to “non-LGBTQ people.” It doesn’t intend to ban a teacher from presuming “the normalcy of opposite-sex attraction while teaching literature,” or to ban “run of the mill references” to people’s heterosexuality.



So the suit argues that under the measure, “anyone who discusses or acknowledges any aspect of LGBTQ identity must fear running afoul of the law,” while it’s “taken for granted that discussing heterosexuality or cisgender identity in school settings is perfectly fine.”
Joshua Matz, an attorney for the plaintiffs, notes that for all these reasons, the law is “guaranteed to be a lawsuit factory” that will unleash “conflict and discord for years to come.”
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“Given the breadth and vagueness of the statute, parents across the state will inevitably file suit over a huge range of classroom activities,” Matz told me. Even now, he said, teachers and schools are quelling self-expression about LGBTQ families in advance of the law taking effect this summer.

So what’s to stop parents from bringing actions against school boards from the other side — against references to heterosexuality or cisgenderism that can be deemed “instruction” in “sexual orientation or gender identity”?






“If a teacher can’t assign a story about a young girl who comes home after school to her two mommies,” Matz told me, “that teacher also can’t assign a book about a young girl who comes home to her mommy and daddy.” Taking the law at face value, Matz said, both “equally instruct” on “sexual orientation.”
Such actions from the left might be rooted in a desire to lay bare the law’s actual intent. If the law’s sponsors object to such actions while supporting ones brought against invocation of LGBT matters, doesn’t that give away the game?

“It will be extremely revealing to see which forms of classroom instruction its sponsors actually believe have been prohibited,” Matz told me.
The vagueness of the law is the point. It appears designed to stoke teacher fears of transgressing lines that aren’t at all clear, and to encourage conservative parents to zealously hunt for those transgressions wherever possible.
To be clear, nobody wants to see such a huge legal crap-fest unfold. But if it does, DeSantis and the law’s drafters are the ones to blame.

 
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It’s almost like this was a POS law crafted and crammed through to score political points, and not well crafted legislation thoughtfully produced in order to address a need.
Have you read it? If so, please enlighten us on what, specifically, you object to.
 
I actually agree that some of the stuff is too far….but when you make a political law that is way too broad and will now overly target marginalized groups….I would LOVE to see the outcome of this being banning books that mention any notion of families (Hetro or LGBTQ).

The absurdity of this all needs to come to light. If Little Jane Doe can’t talk about her two moms , then John Doe should not be allowed to bring up his mom and dad either. Because alas, why should these kids be exposed to anything like that at this age right?

meanwhile, teachers everywhere are job hunting ha! I feel for them, they are the ones who are bearing the brunt of all this. I know an Iowa teacher who has decided to retire in advance of the new Iowa laws….basically said they’re too old to spend their days cataloging all their books and then publicly posting every single lesson plan change at least five days in advance. And deal with all of the drama that comes from all of that.
 
Have you read it? If so, please enlighten us on what, specifically, you object to.
The original post discusses this very thing. Did you read that? By the letter of the law, a teacher cannot discuss really any parental relationship. The law specifically states there can be no discussion of sexual identity or identification. If you cannot discuss male/male relationships you cannot discuss male/female relationships.

If I were an activist homosexual couple, and you know they are out there, I would absolutely object to any story read told presented in the classroom that described a male/female couple. You can’t have those discussions under this law.
 
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I actually agree that some of the stuff is too far….but when you make a political law that is way too broad and will now overly target marginalized groups….I would LOVE to see the outcome of this being banning books that mention any notion of families (Hetro or LGBTQ).

The absurdity of this all needs to come to light. If Little Jane Doe can’t talk about her two moms , then John Doe should not be allowed to bring up his mom and dad either. Because alas, why should these kids be exposed to anything like that at this age right?

meanwhile, teachers everywhere are job hunting ha! I feel for them, they are the ones who are bearing the brunt of all this. I know an Iowa teacher who has decided to retire in advance of the new Iowa laws….basically said they’re too old to spend their days cataloging all their books and then publicly posting every single lesson plan change at least five days in advance. And deal with all of the drama that comes from all of that.
Please point out what section of the law targets a group.
 
The original post discusses this very thing. Did you read that? By the letter of the law, a teacher cannot discuss really any parental relationship. The law specifically states there can be no discussion of sexual identity or identification. If you cannot discuss male/male relationships you cannot discuss male/female relationships.

If I were an activist homosexual couple, and you know they are out there, I would absolutely object to any story read told presented in the classroom that described a male/female couple. You can’t have those discussions under this law.
No, the letter of the law doesn't say that. Try again.
 
To be clear, nobody wants to see such a huge legal crap-fest unfold. But if it does, DeSantis and the law’s drafters are the ones to blame.

That's EXACTLY what I want to see!

Lawmakers passing vague, over-reaching laws deserve to spend all their time wrapped up in defending their dumb laws and eating shit when example after example of unintended consequences gets thrown into their faces.

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Let's make it so that no one can tell any useful stories, or assign any insightful books, and the only things left are benign and banal.
 
I wonder if the middle ground Republicans in Florida will tire of DeSantis and his non-stop grievance agenda? It has to be so exhausting to be constantly deluged with fights and spats. We are suffering through this on a smaller scale in Iowa. Our governor is just a go along dullard, and doesn't want to be POTUS.
I just have to wonder at what point do you guys down there get tired of constantly having to fight tooth and nail to defend useless laws and social wars? This law has no point but to bolster the odds of DeSantis leaving Florida in his wake by activating the super woke members of the electorate.
 
Have you read it? If so, please enlighten us on what, specifically, you object to.
I don't think I have an answer that would satisfy your schtick that you are totally an independent, then tip over backwards always defending and enabling the lowest common denominator trends in the GOP. It's in the article. It's poorly written, and it's a very loud solution in search of a problem.
What was the urgent need of this law, and what does it accomplish that existing laws didn't cover. Or, what was stopping DeSantis from pulling some people together and looking at the issues then deciding what needs to be addressed? Now he's on a non stop WOKE war against Disney.
Have fun with all of the grievances.
 
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Have you read it? If so, please enlighten us on what, specifically, you object to.

Yes I have read it. I object to the part where they specify no discussion on sexual orientation and gender identity. That's the part that draws the "don't say gay" label.
 
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Please point out what section of the law targets a group.

Don't say gay bill

Under section 1, subsection 8, item 3.

3. A school district may not encourage classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in primary grade levels or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students.
 
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