Pac 12 eliminating Divisions - will the big ten follow?

Feb 25, 2008
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The majority of East teams have won a championship(in the east west era), zero west teams. It's not just an OSU difference. But yes they're clearly the best b1g team the past decade or so
Tbf, we would've won if the refs weren't sackless pieces of sh** that decided to look the other way on obvious holding penalties in the two biggest plays of MSU's final drive, so I don't hold that one against us (or the West)....................................just sayin. :D


And while it's good and all that 4 of the East teams have won titles, we know that they're done as far as "new" champs goes. Maryland, Rutgers and Indiana are sol in the current state of college football.

At least in the West, Illinois is about the only team, right now anyway because the jury is still out on Sideshow Bert, that you couldn't see a path for them to reach the Big Ten CG (and Nebraska but that's moreso because of their own failures and lulz ;).......but expectations-wise, they still believe they should be competing for the West).

I also didn't include Purdue, because some people seem to think they're a favorite to win the division this coming year.......

But the problem starts and ends with Ohio State being too good. Let's get through a few more years of OSU not even playing in the CCG and then we'll revisit this.
 
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Clownhater

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I can solve this problem if I am commissioner for a day. Rutgers, Maryland, you are out. Take Nebraska with you, Maryland you can come back for basketball season, but you are out for football. Bielema you need to step it up if you want to stay.
 

PlutoDroid

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Miss me with the "two best teams" talk. Best does not mean deserving.

If they were really the best, they wouldn't lose the games that would get them in the championship.
Well if that is the case then you shouldn't worry about cancelling divisions. All teams will know what they have to do to get to their goal. Iowa will have to win more games than Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan to get one of the two spots in the conference championship game. What you are talking about is giving teams a mulligan. It doesn't matter if you couldn't win in varsity, the jv league winner will still get a ticket. That's not deserving, that's charity.
 
Feb 25, 2008
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Well if that is the case then you shouldn't worry about cancelling divisions. All teams will know what they have to do to get to their goal. Iowa will have to win more games than Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan to get one of the two spots in the conference championship game. What you are talking about is giving teams a mulligan. It doesn't matter if you couldn't win in varsity, the jv league winner will still get a ticket. That's not deserving, that's charity.
Are you saying you want to make it harder for Iowa to win a national championship?...............



Puau.gif
 

MeetTheFerentz

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As often, which is what I was implying. The rotation was super scuffed because of 2 quick rounds of realignment + the original 2020 schedule being thrown out the window.

We didn't play Illinois from 2008 to 2014 for the same reasons.
My point is that I want to see an Iowa B1G schedule in which in any given year, the chance of playing OSU, MI and MSU are equal to the chance of playing NW, IL and PU. Those are the games I want to see played. Some of the B1G regular seasons Iowa has had since 2014 have been absolutely horrible, and some of the ones coming up are even worse now that Rutgers is a regular. Time to start from scratch...
 

Frosty7130

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My point is that I want to see an Iowa B1G schedule in which in any given year, the chance of playing OSU, MI and MSU are equal to the chance of playing NW, IL and PU. Those are the games I want to see played. Some of the B1G regular seasons Iowa has had since 2014 have been absolutely horrible, and some of the ones coming up are even worse now that Rutgers is a regular. Time to start from scratch...
And I say again, all blowing up divisions will do is reset that clock. Iowa and other teams will have a variety of conference slates from now until the end of college athletics, regardless of it being through divisions, pods, or semi-round robin, while there is still 14 teams in a 9-game conference season, which isn't changing any time soon.

Sounds like your issue is more to do with how the rotations have been handled thus far, which is totally understandable. It's both poor planning by the B1G, as well as just unfortunate circumstances. Iowa's original 2020 slate was pretty damned good until they pulled the plug on it.
 

Frosty7130

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Well if that is the case then you shouldn't worry about cancelling divisions. All teams will know what they have to do to get to their goal. Iowa will have to win more games than Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan to get one of the two spots in the conference championship game. What you are talking about is giving teams a mulligan. It doesn't matter if you couldn't win in varsity, the jv league winner will still get a ticket. That's not deserving, that's charity.
That's all fine in dandy in a truly equal conference. I'd be a lot less wary if the B1G hadn't already proven it's willingness to bend the rules for teams like OSU in 2020.
 
Feb 25, 2008
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Btw, I mentioned this earlier, but what would you all think of a split between the FBS division, with the top 70 or 74 teams forming a P5 (12-team conf.) or P6 (14-team conf.) respectively as the "upper" or "major" division and the remaining teams rounding out the lower half of the FBS, allowing them to have their own CFP and make it more accessible to FCS programs ready and willing to move up to the next level?

Regardless of how likely (or not) this is, how receptive would you be to such a change IF it happened?
 

Big Hawk D-Port

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No divisions, everyone has 3 protected rivalry games that are played every year.

Iowa - Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska
Wisconsin- Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska
Minnesota - Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan
Nebraska - Iowa, Northwestern, Wisconsin
Illinois - Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue
Northwestern - Illinois, Nebraska, Michigan State
Michigan- OSU, MSU, Minnesota
MSU - Michigan, Northwestern, Penn State
OSU - Michigan, Penn State, Rutgers
Indiana - Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers
Purdue - Indiana, Illinois, Maryland
Penn State - OSU, MSU, Maryland
Maryland - Penn State, Rutgers, Purdue
Rutgers - Maryland, OSU, Indiana

Special rule that Iowa never plays Purdue or Northwestern ever again.
 

wolve1972

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I would much rather see the Big Ten add 2 teams and then go to 4 divisions.
unless the Big Ten is going to a 13 game conference schedule... I don't like the idea of removing divisions.. at all.
The problem is obvious, the divisions aren't even as I believe I read that the East has won all 8 of the conference championship games since the divisions started and before anyone brings up OSU's powerful teams during this era, it's just not OSU as Michigan, MSU and PSU have all won conference championship - none from the West.

If the two best teams should play for the B1G championship then make it happen - not one from a loaded division playing another from a weaker division
 

wolve1972

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Big Ten West has played Big Ten East to a draw in the regular season.
OSU is the 600lb gorilla in the league, period.
you're probably right about OSU being the 600 lb gorilla over an extended time period but the problem is that they haven't always played the 2nd best team in the B1G championship game which was usually another East team
 

Big Hawk D-Port

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you're probably right about OSU being the 600 lb gorilla over an extended time period but the problem is that they haven't always played the 2nd best team in the B1G championship game which was usually another East team
Which is why our TV ratings for the CCG are not as high as they could be, which is what this is all about.
 

onlyTheObvious

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When the playoff gets expanded we would be better off if the conferences got smaller.

true round robin and the winner goes into the 12-16 team playoff.
 

F5n5

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The problem is obvious, the divisions aren't even as I believe I read that the East has won all 8 of the conference championship games since the divisions started and before anyone brings up OSU's powerful teams during this era, it's just not OSU as Michigan, MSU and PSU have all won conference championship - none from the West.

If the two best teams should play for the B1G championship then make it happen - not one from a loaded division playing another from a weaker division
No no.. that is dumber than dog Doo...
That's like the NFL wiping out divisions and making it a 32 team division..
It's stupid

Divisions keep parity.
And parity is good.
 

wolve1972

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No no.. that is dumber than dog Doo...
That's like the NFL wiping out divisions and making it a 32 team division..
It's stupid

Divisions keep parity.
And parity is good.
Has any team from an NFL conference or division won 8 straight championships like the B1G East has ? That's the problem. If you're going to keep divisions then even them out at the top

The B1G West is made up of a bunch of solid teams and do well during the season but don't have the heavy home run hitters like OSU, Michigan, and PSU which are the three bluebloods in the conference. And a case could be made for MSU being the 4th right behind those 3 as they're the team that has given OSU fits over the last decade and even won a B1G championship. Everybody feasts on the other East teams - Indiana, Rutgers, and Maryland.
 

Big Hawk D-Port

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No no.. that is dumber than dog Doo...
That's like the NFL wiping out divisions and making it a 32 team division..
It's stupid

Divisions keep parity.
And parity is good.
In the NFL all of the teams have a somewhat level playing field to compete from. Michigan and OSU are not the same as Iowa and Wisconsin and they never will be.
 

rrdd2021

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No no.. that is dumber than dog Doo...
That's like the NFL wiping out divisions and making it a 32 team division..
It's stupid

Divisions keep parity.
And parity is good.
In theory, you're division - parity sounds good. But let's swap out Iowa and MSU - two teams pretty much equal in football the last decade or so. In other words, put Iowa in the East with OSU, Michigan and PSU. Would you still want this division makeup ? That's the problem even if you refuse to see it. C'mon man, do you honestly think Northwestern would have made it to the B1G championship game a couple of years ago if it had to go through the top-heavy East gauntlet ? Take your blinders off
 

rrdd2021

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Meh. The Pac 12 is more desperate than the Big Ten.

In all honesty, how often was the Big Ten truly deprived of having the "two best teams" in its title game?.........

Regardless of the answer, it's not enough to warrant getting rid of divisions simply because others are experimenting with it, or suggest that it's a good idea (which it's not).
Well, since the East has won all 8 since the divisions started, I'd say quite a bit. Ane some of those point margins were convincing. I'll even go back to just last year.....tell me that OSU wasn't better than Iowa even with that putrid / horrible defense they fielded (caused the whole staff - minus Larry Johnson - to be fired)
 

Frosty7130

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Well, since the East has won all 8 since the divisions started, I'd say quite a bit. Ane some of those point margins were convincing. I'll even go back to just last year.....tell me that OSU wasn't better than Iowa even with that putrid / horrible defense they fielded (caused the whole staff - minus Larry Johnson - to be fired)
So you'd rather Michigan and OSU play in back to back weeks, which will inevitably lead to teams placing far more importance on the 2nd matchup.

People keep throwing that 8-0 around, which is stupid, because again, teams not named OSU have only won 3 of those, and 1 since 2016.

If the rest of the East was regularly pulling their weight, I'd consider that a fair argument, but they're not
 

Frosty7130

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The SEC East has won 1 championship game since 2008. Teams not named Alabama from the West have won 4

Nobody argues their division is weak.

If you want to argue B1G parity is imbalanced based on overall results and record, whatever, the numbers and analytics don't back that up, but it's not unreasonable. Basing it on the championship game alone is a stupid, reactionary argument.
 
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wolve1972

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So you'd rather Michigan and OSU play in back to back weeks, which will inevitably lead to teams placing far more importance on the 2nd matchup.

People keep throwing that 8-0 around, which is stupid, because again, teams not named OSU have only won 3 of those, and 1 since 2016.

If the rest of the East was regularly pulling their weight, I'd consider that a fair argument, but they're not
I think the argument is that even the non-OSU teams have won the B1G championship including last year's total waxing of Iowa by Michigan. If you're going to have divisions, even them out more - not all of the Bluebloods in one division.

8-0 isn't stupid - the record speaks for itself. You mentioned "teams not named OSU have won only 3 titles" but the bottom line is they WON.

I'll ask you - would you be pointing all of this out if Iowa and MSU swapped out divisions ? Put Iowa in the East and MSU in the West ? It's a heck of a lot easier to get a shot at a conference championship going through the like of Wisky, NU, etc....than OSU, Michigan and PSU
 

onlyTheObvious

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Ohio State on one side. Michigan and Penn State on other.

revisit it every 4-6 years.

even without divisions there will be divisions. You will still look and see who you do and don’t play.
 

Frosty7130

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I think the argument is that even the non-OSU teams have won the B1G championship including last year's total waxing of Iowa by Michigan. If you're going to have divisions, even them out more - not all of the Bluebloods in one division.

8-0 isn't stupid - the record speaks for itself. You mentioned "teams not named OSU have won only 3 titles" but the bottom line is they WON.

I'll ask you - would you be pointing all of this out if Iowa and MSU swapped out divisions ? Put Iowa in the East and MSU in the West ? It's a heck of a lot easier to get a shot at a conference championship going through the like of Wisky, NU, etc....than OSU, Michigan and PSU
Yes, I would.

Someone already pointed out the interdivisional record is even, if not even slightly favoring the West. That takes into account both OSU's great record, as well as Rutgers' terrible one.

"Just even them out" sounds like a good idea for short term, but what happens if/when Michigan or other East teams start to fall off? At that point, why not just rearrange them every year based on perceived strength?

All of this is simply looking for a problem. Quit listening to the TV analysts because it's quite literally their job to look for stupid narratives like this in order to generate revenue.
 

rrdd2021

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You make some good points but the real problem is all 3 perennial powers / bluebloods were put in the same division and while they might have occasional down periods, they'll be back.

Well, let me rephrase that. All will have occasional down periods except OSU. I read that they've had only 2 losing seasons since the mid 1960s which is totally mind-boggling. And one of them was 2011 when they went 6-7 due to the Tressel sanctions (Tattoo-gate). They went 11-2 last year - won the Rose Bowl - but yet most of their followers consider 2021 to be a total disaster.

Which brings me to my point. Who wants in the same division with those guys? You really have to have an outstanding, national top 3 or 4 team to make it past OSU - unlike the current B1G West
 

rrdd2021

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Miss me with the "two best teams" talk. Best does not mean deserving.

If they were really the best, they wouldn't lose the games that would get them in the championship.
So you would just ignore "strength of schedule" ? Running through a bunch of cream puffs instead of more highly rated teams gets you a B1G championship spot ? OK !
 

Frosty7130

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So you would just ignore "strength of schedule" ? Running through a bunch of cream puffs instead of more highly rated teams gets you a B1G championship spot ? OK !
Massey and Sagarin, two very respected analytics outlets, had the B1GW as the 3rd toughest division in football last season, behind only the SECW and the B1GE.

Listen less to the talking heads.
 
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Big Hawk D-Port

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Massey and Sagarin, two very respected analytics outlets, had the B1GW as the 3rd toughest division in football last season, behind only the SECW and the B1GE.

Listen less to the talking heads.
What the PAC12 and the B1G are trying to do is have the highest rated TV property that they can sell. So the numbers you need to look at are Nielson instead of Sagarin.
 

rrdd2021

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Massey and Sagarin, two very respected analytics outlets, had the B1GW as the 3rd toughest division in football last season, behind only the SECW and the B1GE.

Listen less to the talking heads.
Two opinions. What you're missing is that the East is top heavy which is why they're in the Playoffs every year. Let me put it this way, I'll take the East winner in 2022 (probably OSU) against the West winner right now. How about you? The point is that they need to shift a few teams around to make it more balanced at the top of each division and make the B1G championship more competitive. Granted, the bottom teams in the East suck but no comparison of the top 3 or 4 teams of each division
 

Frosty7130

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Two opinions. What you're missing is that the East is top heavy which is why they're in the Playoffs every year. Let me put it this way, I'll take the East winner in 2022 (probably OSU) against the West winner right now. How about you? The point is that they need to shift a few teams around to make it more balanced at the top of each division and make the B1G championship more competitive. Granted, the bottom teams in the East suck but no comparison of the top 3 or 4 teams of each division
Are they in the playoffs because they're in the B1G East? Or are they in the playoffs because they won the B1G?

It's absolutely the latter, and would have been so for several West champions had they won the CCG.

You're putting the cart before the horse.
 

Frosty7130

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What the PAC12 and the B1G are trying to do is have the highest rated TV property that they can sell. So the numbers you need to look at are Nielson instead of Sagarin.
That's not going to save them. They could have 3 CCG each, they'll still languish behind the B1G and SEC.

Again, as one of the top dog conferences, we should absolutely not be using the Pac 12 and Big 12 as a role model, especially when the latter's days as a power conference are numbered.

EDIT: Also, of course those two conferences are basing it on TV numbers, because theirs are already DWARFED by the numbers of the SEC and B1G. The lopsided B1GCCG that everyone keeps lamenting still had almost 3x as many viewers as the Pac 12 CCG, and almost 4 million more than the Big 12 CCG.
 
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rrdd2021

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Are they in the playoffs because they're in the B1G East? Or are they in the playoffs because they won the B1G?

It's absolutely the latter, and would have been so for several West champions had they won the CCG.

You're putting the cart before the horse.
But the point is that the West hasn't won the CCG - a fact - and probably won't in the future as long as the divisions stay the same. You refuse to acknowledge that the stronger / upper level teams reside in the East. Think about it - 8 in a row. Jesus, what more do you need ?
 

Frosty7130

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But the point is that the West hasn't won the CCG - a fact - and probably won't in the future as long as the divisions stay the same. You refuse to acknowledge that the stronger / upper level teams reside in the East. Think about it - 8 in a row. Jesus, what more do you need ?
Patience is what I need. Panicking at the first sign of trouble is a fun pastime for CFB fans who don't know any better, but it's also leading to all of the major issues in the sport.

I refuse to acknowledge the idea that the B1GE is much better "just because". As has been stated several times in this thread, the West currently owns the H2H record. If the level of difference was truly as so many claim, that would not be the case.

The SEC West was 1-7 in the first 8 SEC CCG. The SEC East is 1-12 since 2008. They did not elect to "rebalance" the divisions. They didn't decide to blow everything up based on 2 outlier games in the span of 8 years.
 

rrdd2021

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Patience is what I need. Panicking at the first sign of trouble is a fun pastime for CFB fans who don't know any better, but it's also leading to all of the major issues in the sport.

I refuse to acknowledge the idea that the B1GE is much better "just because". As has been stated several times in this thread, the West currently owns the H2H record. If the level of difference was truly as so many claim, that would not be the case.

The SEC West was 1-7 in the first 8 SEC CCG. The SEC East is 1-12 since 2008. They did not elect to "rebalance" the divisions. They didn't decide to blow everything up based on 2 outlier games in the span of 8 years.
You're missing the point. The B1G East is heavy at the top and it's much harder to make the CCG than being in the West thus the 8-0 record. The bottom 3 teams in the East suck. I'll ask this one more time - do you think teams like Iowa (last year), Northwestern and even Wisconsin would have played in the CCG if they were in the East ?
 

Frosty7130

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You're missing the point. The B1G East is heavy at the top and it's much harder to make the CCG than being in the West thus the 8-0 record. The bottom 3 teams in the East suck. I'll ask this one more time - do you think teams like Iowa (last year), Northwestern and even Wisconsin would have played in the CCG if they were in the East ?
I'm not missing it at all. I'm saying it's not a point I agree with.

No, Iowa probably wouldn't have made it last year. But you can make the argument for several teams across several years that they would have. Playing hypothetical musical chairs is nonsense.

I'll say this again: blowing up our current system in favor of one just as flawed, just in different ways, is nonsensical. Screw what the Big 12 and Pac 12 are doing. They're getting left behind no matter what.
 
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Big Hawk D-Port

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That's not going to save them. They could have 3 CCG each, they'll still languish behind the B1G and SEC.

Again, as one of the top dog conferences, we should absolutely not be using the Pac 12 and Big 12 as a role model, especially when the latter's days as a power conference are numbered.

EDIT: Also, of course those two conferences are basing it on TV numbers, because theirs are already DWARFED by the numbers of the SEC and B1G. The lopsided B1GCCG that everyone keeps lamenting still had almost 3x as many viewers as the Pac 12 CCG, and almost 4 million more than the Big 12 CCG.
Nobody said anything about the Big 12. I mentioned the B1G and the PAC12 because they are the ones talking about getting rid of divisions. The SEC is talking about a pod model by the way. They have a similar problem (about to get worse with TX and OK) but at least have Florida and Georgia in the East.
 

Frosty7130

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Nobody said anything about the Big 12. I mentioned the B1G and the PAC12 because they are the ones talking about getting rid of divisions. The SEC is talking about a pod model by the way. They have a similar problem (about to get worse with TX and OK) but at least have Florida and Georgia in the East.
Others in this thread have mentioned them which is why I brought them up.

Not a fan of a pod model either. Not a fan of super conferences. CFB is best as a regional sport, when we get into super-conferences or even a P5 league, it's basically NFL-lite, and at that point I'm out.
 

Big Hawk D-Port

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Others in this thread have mentioned them which is why I brought them up.

Not a fan of a pod model either. Not a fan of super conferences. CFB is best as a regional sport, when we get into super-conferences or even a P5 league, it's basically NFL-lite, and at that point I'm out.
Ah gotcha.

You and I would probably agree on a lot, but the reality is that college football is never going back to what it was. It makes me sad but it is what it is.
 

Frosty7130

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Ah gotcha.

You and I would probably agree on a lot, but the reality is that college football is never going back to what it was. It makes me sad but it is what it is.
It is, and it makes me sad. But it's also why I try and speak out because if there's even a sliver of hope we can save or revert back to what makes CFB so great, I want to at least attempt it.

Hopefully, it causes a lot of people to open their eyes to small-school football, like the DIII, DII, and NAIA levels. Tons of good football is being played across the country at a lot of places that get overlooked because the athletes don't have the prototypical measurements or were even overlooked due to competition or isolation.
 
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Bulldogs1974

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The B1G West hasn't really been carrying its weight so it would not surprise me. Would suck for Iowa. Schedule got a lot easier once East, West divisions formed. Plus I like playing Wisconsin, Nebraska, Northwestern and Minnesota every year. Don't really care about Rutgers, Maryland and Indiana. So the fact we could play those teams just as much as our border rivals would stink.
this is only true in the big ten title game otherwise the divisions are a wash.
 

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