Participatory Socialism - Thomas Piketty

May 17, 2021
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Any HROT posters brave enough to ask real questions and consider massive amounts of data and see the world economic system as it is, how it fails catastrophically, and how it works best?

Piketty has arguably written the most important works in economics in decades. And he shows what the neoliberal Chicago school has worked sooooo hard to ignore or deny or just treat as inevitable. Which it isn’t.

we create myths about the origins of money and debt and economy and then make those myths into justifications for what we then tell ourselves is inevitable.

Duped and deluded we are. Corrupted and cynical we have become. Said Yoda.

we allowed the powerful to force their ideologies upon us. Destructive and even genocidal ideas - capitalism and totalitarian socialism both. The worst possible outcome is to make myth into fact like fundamentalists and cultists do, and deny ourselves the power of critical thinking and critical action.

little that we see and take for granted in society today is sustainable and won’t last long.


 

seminole97

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Jun 14, 2005
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We already have ‘universal inheritance’, it’s just the debt from the garbage politicians passed to get re-elected when they realized they could bill the future.


As of June 1, 2022, the U.S. Treasury’s official figure for the debt of the federal government is $30.4 trillion, or more precisely, $30,440,978,089,257.
This equates to $91,490 for every person living in the U.S.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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EZRA KLEIN: ... there’s another book about moments in time when inequality really changed, “The Great Leveler.” And I would say the takeaway of that book is the only force is stronger than those protecting great inequality of wealth are wars, plagues and total societal collapse.
 
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May 17, 2021
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EZRA KLEIN: ... there’s another book about moments in time when inequality really changed, “The Great Leveler.” And I would say the takeaway of that book is the only force is stronger than those protecting great inequality of wealth are wars, plagues and total societal collapse.
Militaries and wars - and police - are ALL ABOUT creating maintaining and increasing wealth inequality. What is protecting private property or returning it (whether runaway slaves or a stolen rolls royce) other than maintaining wealth inequality, outside of rule of law? (Much of legal system also exists to make the business of America as an expropriative and elite dominated business)

money itself mainly developed as a way for aristocrats to feed and maintain mercenary or standing armies. It arose in most every documented place simultaneous to armies being organized.
 
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May 17, 2021
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Yep. Two consequential dates in US history are first when the federal reserve bank was created and that gave the banks full authority to manipulate the government and people, and second, the gloves came off in 1971, and all of that was cheered wildly by Friedman and the Chicago School.

We’ve been dominated by that ideology for a century, with the exception of a couple decades of supply side Keynesian new deal economics to tamp down what would’ve been a full-blown revolution.

It’s always been almost entirely about profits over people, and for the most part a sham democracy here. It seem to work for a little while while we could exploit slave labor or cheap labor abroad and rape natural resources etc.. It is not sustainable. It will fall apart. We need to educate ourselves and each other on how to pick up the pieces and put them back together in such a way that we can survive. There isn’t anywhere to run and hide. Whether we like it or not or like each other or not, we are all in this together.
 
Dec 25, 2020
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Militaries and wars - and police - are ALL ABOUT creating maintaining and increasing wealth inequality. What is protecting private property or returning it (whether runaway slaves or a stolen rolls royce) other than maintaining wealth inequality, outside of rule of law? (Much of legal system also exists to make the business of America as an expropriative and elite dominated business)

money itself mainly developed as a way for aristocrats to feed and maintain mercenary or standing armies. It arose in most every documented place simultaneous to armies being organized.
Eh oh! This is from "Debt". Im too dumb to understand that book unfortunately.
 

seminole97

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Axial age (appx 500 BCE) dominated by slavery and war and mercenary armies to enforce it and coinage arose in those places. To pay soldiers and create economies to support the exploitative empires.

Money arose to make civilization possible.
It simply isn’t possible without it.
You simply can’t coordinate the wants and needs of hundreds, thousands or millions on direct barter.

Sovereigns inject themselves into the process of minting money not because they’re needed, but because seigniorage is an easier way to take from the people than taxes.

 
May 17, 2021
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Im mostly kidding but the book is dense. It really helped me think about money and exchange in a different way. I should probably try to read it again
Agreed. Tons and tons of info and evidence. Extremely well sourced and researched. Seminal work of scholarship. I listened to it twice over the span of a few months. Good while driving or working out or cooking. Had to relisten to sections sometimes several times. Didn’t want to miss anything. Still learning.
 
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May 17, 2021
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Money arose to make civilization possible.
It simply isn’t possible without it.
You simply can’t coordinate the wants and needs of hundreds, thousands or millions on direct barter.

Sovereigns inject themselves into the process of minting money not because they’re needed, but because seigniorage is an easier way to take from the people than taxes.

I’m sorry but the reams of evidence simply do not agree with your belief here.

there were hundreds of highly complex civilizations before there was money.

you need to read Graeber and Wengrow’s‘s the dawn of everything, published after Graber died. International bestseller. A masterpiece.

among the stunning things that I learned from them was that of the appx 430 archaeological sites with human remains, only a handful have ANY sign of violence (cut marks, bashed skulls).
By and large, if we actually look at the evidence, prehistorical societies were NOT the total bullshit postulated by Hobbes to retroactively justify the slavery based genocidal imperialist capitalist system he so loved. So called “civilized” societies were so much more violent, systematically and later industrially so, like the holocaust killing 6M Jewish people and 6M more political prisoners, Romani (lost 80% of global population, relative to 50% of global pop of Jewish people), lgbtq, etc.

"No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." So said Thomas Hobbes in his Leviathan.

almost totally wrong. He just made it up. Like Adam smith postulating money arising from barter. Pulled that notion out of his ass. And we accept it as dogma. As I did for two decades until I re-examined the bullshit I was taught in a bunch of Econ and finance classes.

 
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seminole97

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there were hundreds of highly complex civilizations before there was money.
I have a feeling our conversation may flounder on definitions.
What to you is an example of a ‘highly complex civilization’ that didn’t have money?
What do you consider money? Is it a universal medium of exchange, or only bits with the sovereign’s blessing upon it?
 

seminole97

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Fascinating stuff.

But do you think all these worsening trends are a result of going off the gold standard? And do you think the ship would right itself if we returned to the gold standard?
There is good reason the States were forbidden by the Constitution from ‘emitting bills of credit’ (what today we call printing money). Bitter experience with the MMTers of the day.

I have been long since fully convinced of the necessaty of Granting to Congress more ample and extensive powers than they at present possess; the want of power an[d] energy in that Body has been severely felt in every part of the United States. The disturbances in new England, The declining state of our Commerce—and the general languor which seems to pervade the Union are in a great measure (if not entirely) owing to the want of proper Authority in the surpreme Council. The extreeme jealousy that is observed in vesting Congress with adequate powers has a tendency rather to distroy than confim our liberty’s the wisest resolutions cannot produce any good unless they are supported with energy—they are only applauded, but never followed.

Paper money has had the effect in your State that it ever will have, to ruin commerce—oppress the honest, and open a door to every species of fraud and injustice.

-
George Washington letter to Jabez Bowen, January 9, 1787
 
Mar 11, 2020
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If there is one username on this site I would actually be willing to bet is a bot or paid troll it would be OP. Dude is anti democracy at every turn and consistently brings up ways our American way is wrong.


Socialism.... yupp, yhat will get them..... every other country that has tried it has sunk themselves but we Americans, we would figure it out.....

Dumbass.
 
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WheresWaldorf

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Im mostly kidding but the book is dense. It really helped me think about money and exchange in a different way. I should probably try to read it again
It is a fantastic read. Everything makes much more sense now. Basically we are slaves to the system and everything is based on violence. Pretty crazy that this grand scheme goes largely ignored by MAGA types.
 

WheresWaldorf

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Apr 29, 2022
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If there is one username on this site I would actually be willing to bet is a bot or paid troll it would be OP. Dude is anti democracy at every turn and consistently brings up ways our American way is wrong.


Socialism.... yupp, yhat will get them..... every other country that has tried it has sunk themselves but we Americans, we would figure it out.....

Dumbass.
I suggest you read the book and decide for yourself. Everything we do is designed to feed violence abroad in order to fund the rich. Without wealth redistribution, we are all slaves.
 
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Nov 28, 2010
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Im mostly kidding but the book is dense.
If you are referring to the Graeber book, I strongly recommend listening to the audiobook version. Very easy to assimilate in that format.

If you are referring to the Piketty book, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, yeah, that's a killer. I gave up early. He has a new book out, A Brief History of Equality, that I'm hoping is more accessible.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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If there is one username on this site I would actually be willing to bet is a bot or paid troll it would be OP. Dude is anti democracy at every turn and consistently brings up ways our American way is wrong.
Might be that new sentient bot from Google.

Seriously, though, you are more likely to be the bot if you think OP is anti democracy. Wingnut bots sling "socialism" around at a high frequency. Just like you.
 
Mar 11, 2020
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Might be that new sentient bot from Google.

Seriously, though, you are more likely to be the bot if you think OP is anti democracy. Wingnut bots sling "socialism" around at a high frequency. Just like you.
^ This is what happens when you convince yourself you are intelligent. Yupp, the guy constantly sewing dissension is cool as a cucumber but the guy who uses the word socialist, that's who we need to be on thr look out for.



This board is a constant reinforcement of:

"If democrats are so ****ing smart how come they lose so god-damn always?"
 
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seminole97

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It is a fantastic read. Everything makes much more sense now. Basically we are slaves to the system and everything is based on violence. Pretty crazy that this grand scheme goes largely ignored by MAGA types.
images
 
Mar 11, 2020
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I’m not a lawyer and neither are you. Don’t swing on someone if you can’t take it back son. Now scurry away to your leader.
Whoaaaa... what was all that "I took out 140k student loan to get my JD and got it all wiped away as a public servant working for the government" bullshit?


Did you forget what account you posted your shower of shit under? You wouldn't know how to throw a punch if I taught you how to make a fist, run away pisspants.
 
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seminole97

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Jun 14, 2005
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Whoaaaa... what was all that "I took out 140k student loan to get my JF and got it all wiped away as a public servant working for the government" bullshit?


Did you forget what account you posted your shower of shit under? You wouldn't know how to throw a punch if I taught you how to make a fist, run away pisspants.
Ignore this guy.
I want to know more about the ‘highly complex civilizations’ that didn’t have money.
 

WheresWaldorf

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Whoaaaa... what was all that "I took out 140k student loan to get my JD and got it all wiped away as a public servant working for the government" bullshit?


Did you forget what account you posted your shower of shit under? You wouldn't know how to throw a punch if I taught you how to make a fist, run away pisspants.
I never said JD. You’re getting your hit list victims mixed up. I have a masters in public administration. I would love to see you try making a fist. I’m an absolute animal in this life, if there’s a god, you’re talking to him.
 
Mar 11, 2020
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I never said JD. You’re getting your hit list victims mixed up. I have a masters in public administration. I would love to see you try making a fist. I’m an absolute animal in this life, if there’s a god, you’re talking to him.
You paid 140k for a masters in public administration? Hahaha, you are ****ing dumber than I thought. Couldn't get into a masters of social work program?





God wouldn't need to skimp out on a debt he took, you sound like a scared little boy.
 
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seminole97

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What are you even talking about? David? He’s an excellent academic and the poster living like him is fantastic.
I asked OP, but anyone can chime in:


there were hundreds of highly complex civilizations before there was money.
I have a feeling our conversation may flounder on definitions.
What to you is an example of a ‘highly complex civilization’ that didn’t have money?
What do you consider money? Is it a universal medium of exchange, or only bits with the sovereign’s blessing upon it?
 

WheresWaldorf

Team MVP
Apr 29, 2022
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You paid 140k for a masters in public administration? Hahaha, you are ****ing dumber than I thought. Couldn't get into a masters of social work program?





God wouldn't need to skimp out on a debt he took, you sound like a scared little boy.
I haven’t been scared as an adult male in my life.
Me

God

nc5

trump

you