Play both Murrays together.

Lighting Hawk

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OP is spot on. Fran has spoken multiple times about positionless basketball. If so then Kris needs to be on the floor. If he’s going to sit him behind his son Patrick and play him only situationally he’s making a huge mistake. Play them together.

Agree but apparently during the press conference, Fran said he’s been banged up. So maybe that changes moving forward? Kris and pat both played well, but I think we’d be better off starting both Murray’s in the post and having Rebraca come off to alleviate or come in for foul issues.
 

DodgerHawki

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Agree but apparently during the press conference, Fran said he’s been banged up. So maybe that changes moving forward? Kris and pat both played well, but I think we’d be better off starting both Murray’s in the post and having Rebraca come off to alleviate or come in for foul issues.
Who starts isn't terribly important to me. Who plays most minutes is. The mileage on the advanced stats may vary, but the BPM and WS/40 (Box Plus/Minus and Win Shares per 40 minutes) stats have the Murray twins as the best Iowa players by a wide margin. If you throw out Luke Laketa's 17 minutes played, here's how it goes.

PlayerPERWS/40BPM
Keegan Murray43.2.37216.0
Kr. Murray31.6.28810.6
Perkins21.5.1986.3
Bohannon16.6.1614.5
P. McCaffery19.0.1595.4
Toussaint17.1.1473.0
Sandfordt17.1.146-0.2
Rebraca14.5.1390.5
Ulis14.7.1362.6
Ogundele16.3.1183.1
C. McCaffery7.9.0891.3

Source: College Basketball Reference.

PER -- Player Efficiency Rating
WS/40
▼ -- Win Shares Per 40 Minutes; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 40 minutes (average is approximately .100).
BPM -- Box Plus/Minus
A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.
 

Lighting Hawk

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Who starts isn't terribly important to me. Who plays most minutes is. The mileage on the advanced stats may vary, but the BPM and WS/40 (Box Plus/Minus and Win Shares per 40 minutes) stats have the Murray twins as the best Iowa players by a wide margin. If you throw out Luke Laketa's 17 minutes played, here's how it goes.

PlayerPERWS/40BPM
Keegan Murray43.2.37216.0
Kr. Murray31.6.28810.6
Perkins21.5.1986.3
Bohannon16.6.1614.5
P. McCaffery19.0.1595.4
Toussaint17.1.1473.0
Sandfordt17.1.146-0.2
Rebraca14.5.1390.5
Ulis14.7.1362.6
Ogundele16.3.1183.1
C. McCaffery7.9.0891.3

Source: College Basketball Reference.

PER -- Player Efficiency Rating
WS/40
▼ -- Win Shares Per 40 Minutes; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 40 minutes (average is approximately .100).
BPM -- Box Plus/Minus
A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.
Thanks @DodgerHawki I broke these down in another thread a week or so ago, I agree with everything you just stated. Those two stats jumped off the advanced analytics to me, and it's impossible to ignore the production of both Murrays, especially on the floor together. I don't care who starts, I do think keeping them on the floor together is a no-brainer, but the minute distribution needs to be tweaked in crucial stretches IMO.
 
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SDHawkDoc

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Thanks @DodgerHawki I broke these down in another thread a week or so ago, I agree with everything you just stated. Those two stats jumped off the advanced analytics to me, and it's impossible to ignore the production of both Murrays, especially on the floor together. I don't care who starts, I do think keeping them on the floor together is a no-brainer, but the minute distribution needs to be tweaked in crucial stretches IMO.
But some on here think that is THE critical decision. I'm with you; I think the whole starter/reserve designation is overblown. The minutes distribution and optimal situational substitution is more important to the game outcome.
One of Fran's game management issues is that he does stick with starters too long. So while there should not theoretically be an issue with a bench player getting significantly more minutes than a starter it might not play out as well on the court depending on the coach.
Whatever needs to happen for Kris to see more minutes is the answer.
If we're looking from a minutes distribution perspective Keegan is the obvious #1 and he should get as many as he can go in a game, 35+. Kris should be 25+.
 
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RocknRollface

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Thanks @DodgerHawki I broke these down in another thread a week or so ago, I agree with everything you just stated. Those two stats jumped off the advanced analytics to me, and it's impossible to ignore the production of both Murrays, especially on the floor together. I don't care who starts, I do think keeping them on the floor together is a no-brainer, but the minute distribution needs to be tweaked in crucial stretches IMO.
You're underestimating Frans ability to ignore the obvious.

Hes got some thick blinders for certain players.
 

RocknRollface

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But some on here think that is THE critical decision. I'm with you; I think the whole starter/reserve designation is overblown. The minutes distribution and optimal situational substitution is more important to the game outcome.
One of Fran's game management issues is that he does stick with starters too long. So while there should not theoretically be an issue with a bench player getting significantly more minutes than a starter it might not play out as well on the court depending on the coach.
Whatever needs to happen for Kris to see more minutes is the answer.
If we're looking from a minutes distribution perspective Keegan is the obvious #1 and he should get as many as he can go in a game, 35+. Kris should be 25+.
Yeah, starting doesn't matter technically but I think Fran views the starting 5 as his best players.

Thats a problem when its nearly backwards besides Keegan being the obvious best.

The second and third best players are obviously Kris and TP and the team runs better with Ulis at pg on both ends.
 
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HawkLogic

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Who starts isn't terribly important to me. Who plays most minutes is. The mileage on the advanced stats may vary, but the BPM and WS/40 (Box Plus/Minus and Win Shares per 40 minutes) stats have the Murray twins as the best Iowa players by a wide margin. If you throw out Luke Laketa's 17 minutes played, here's how it goes.

PlayerPERWS/40BPM
Keegan Murray43.2.37216.0
Kr. Murray31.6.28810.6
Perkins21.5.1986.3
Bohannon16.6.1614.5
P. McCaffery19.0.1595.4
Toussaint17.1.1473.0
Sandfordt17.1.146-0.2
Rebraca14.5.1390.5
Ulis14.7.1362.6
Ogundele16.3.1183.1
C. McCaffery7.9.0891.3

Source: College Basketball Reference.

PER -- Player Efficiency Rating
WS/40
▼ -- Win Shares Per 40 Minutes; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 40 minutes (average is approximately .100).
BPM -- Box Plus/Minus
A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.

owenhawk and Fran see things beyong PER that stats don't capture.
 
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HawkLogic

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Yeah, starting doesn't matter technically but I think Fran views the starting 5 as his best players.

Thats a problem when its nearly backwards besides Keegan being the obvious best.

The second and third best players are obviously Kris and TP and the team runs better with Ulis at pg on both ends.

yes, the "I don't care who starts" ignores the fact that Fran starting 5 usually are top 5 in minutes. The other issue is Fran is fully committed to playing 10 deep with CMAC as babysittyer for 2nd unit.
I do think Rebracca minutes will be going down because he isn't living up to hopes---he's a solid player, but
far from a star. That will open up more KrisM minutes.

In idea world Mulvey would RS, but looks like he will have to play this year. Fran was not finding enough minutes for Josh based on what we need in B1G and there had been near zero allocated to Mulvey. At least Mulvey can block some shots and rebound---I think he's played okay for Freshman in limited minutes.
 

RocknRollface

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I have come to that realization and have generally stopped letting that fact make me upset when watching Hawk games. Makes me enjoy the game more.
Yeah, you just have to accept that Fran is setting a lower ceiling for this team than it would otherwise have and its not going to change.

Same formula he used to underachieve last year.
 

StarHawk

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Can people stop the Conner charade...please...anyone with any Basketball sense can see that he is just ballast out there...no juice. I'll give you the calm thing...flow goes to a steady slow movement of the ball...stare down the guy you are throwing to and pose no threat to score.

He does do a good job of getting he easy defensive rebounds...those that are unopposed and would otherwise land into any other Hawk near it.

Last night he was out there waaayyyyy too long (stat padding?) Ogundele should have got minutes much sooner...he needs to get more time to get better...which he can, he's got some raw strengths....size is one which is much needed sometimes (remember Illinois?)

Althought Kris had an off night to start last night, he's real close to getting to his brother's level.
 

RocknRollface

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Can people stop the Conner charade...please...anyone with any Basketball sense can see that he is just ballast out there...no juice. I'll give you the calm thing...flow goes to a steady slow movement of the ball...stare down the guy you are throwing to and pose no threat to score.

He does do a good job of getting he easy defensive rebounds...those that are unopposed and would otherwise land into any other Hawk near it.

Last night he was out there waaayyyyy too long (stat padding?) Ogundele should have got minutes much sooner...he needs to get more time to get better...which he can, he's got some raw strengths....size is one which is much needed sometimes (remember Illinois?)

Althought Kris had an off night to start last night, he's real close to getting to his brother's level.
Its a dead horse at this point.

Frans going to play his sons. Period.

One can't shoot, the other can't stop taking bad shots and doesn't defend.
 

littlez

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At this point it's comical that Josh O isn't getting 15-20 minutes in a game like that. If he can play like he did against the best team in the big Ten at Purdue, there's no reason for him to be playing 2 minutes in a 30 pt blowout. Obviously kids get better by practicing, and clearly I'm not at practice. However, he has shown pretty darn good skills and toughness in the minutes he has played. Conor has a bad back, bad hips, can't shoot and at this point is not any part of the future of this program. He's just taking developmental minutes from players like Josh, Sandfort, even Perkins and Ulis.
 

Ronman

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Someone is really going to have to explain to me how Connor hurt the team last night. Made his only shot attempt, a three pointer, had EIGHT rebounds, and two assists, one of which was a nice post pass to Keegan, who got a dunk.
Some of you guys just hate all of the McCafferys'. Just admit it and you'll feel better for it. Maybe then you can quit the vitriol in every post.
 

littlez

HR Heisman
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Someone is really going to have to explain to me how Connor hurt the team last night. Made his only shot attempt, a three pointer, had EIGHT rebounds, and two assists, one of which was a nice post pass to Keegan, who got a dunk.
Some of you guys just hate all of the McCafferys'. Just admit it and you'll feel better for it. Maybe then you can quit the vitriol in every post.
Not it at all. What is probably the biggest weakness on this team? Interior defense and rebounding? Does it not make sense to try and get your 6-10 bench post man some good minutes in a game like last night? How else are we going to know what we have even for next year? Would you rather have Kris Murray out there or Conor? All analytics point out he’s one of the weakest players we have. We have a potential 1st round pick out there now who sat behind him last year. Who knows what we are missing by not giving Kris more minutes.
 

SDHawkDoc

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I don't care what his last name is or who he's related to. Playing a guy who's hurt with already limited athletic ability and no offense AND who is not going to develop further instead of players with more raw ability and potential is dumb. Especially in a game that's well in hand when you have a chance to develop players who might help your program going forward.
 

littlez

HR Heisman
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I don't care what his last name is or who he's related to. Playing a guy who's hurt with already limited athletic ability and no offense AND who is not going to develop further instead of players with more raw ability and potential is dumb. Especially in a game that's well in hand when you have a chance to develop players who might help your program going forward.
Exactly. Makes zero sense. And while JBo has been a great hawkeye, the same can be said for him. He's taking minutes from Perkins or Ulis or even Kris Murray at the 2. He's had his time. Fran should have told him he's had a great career but it was time to move on.
 

jonesy5960

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Kris was having an off game. Connor wasn't. It happens.
I'm not going to insert myself into the McCaffery family and friends vs the only reason Pat and Cmac aren't playing at Toledo is because of their dad crowd but these kinds of comments are what drives the debate around minutes into the ditch. Kris played a total of 10 minutes. He barely saw the floor enough to get into a rhythm.

Kris is already the second best player on the team and will only get better with minutes. Use whatever you want to judge that statement. Virtually every empirical metric backs it up. Full stop. It has nothing to do with Connor or Patrick or anyone else for that matter. He should be starting or at a minimum getting 25 minutes per game. The fact that he is averaging 15 minutes per game over the last 4 games makes zero sense. The fact that he played 10 minutes last night when Keegan was out for much of the first half makes even less sense. On Kris' worst day he likely brings more than Connor today and that's not CMac bashing. That's just a fact and Kris, assuming he's healthy, should be getting the minutes. If he's not healthy, then Fran should say something.
 
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RocknRollface

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Someone is really going to have to explain to me how Connor hurt the team last night. Made his only shot attempt, a three pointer, had EIGHT rebounds, and two assists, one of which was a nice post pass to Keegan, who got a dunk.
Some of you guys just hate all of the McCafferys'. Just admit it and you'll feel better for it. Maybe then you can quit the vitriol in every post.
It's so weird to me that some of you guys can't understand the difference between personal and basketball.

It must be that you don't understand the basketball conversation. Otherwise what purpose is there on attempting to force nonsense like this into the conversation?

Just keep it to basketball.

The point about Connors game last night is valid. The personal stuff isn't.
 

jonesy5960

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It's so weird to me that some of you guys can't understand the difference between personal and basketball.

It must be that you don't understand the basketball conversation. Otherwise what purpose is there on attempting to force nonsense like this into the conversation?

Just keep it to basketball.

The point about Connors game last night is valid. The personal stuff isn't.
In all fairness, there are some posters on here that take their opinions too far in regards the McCafferys. The hyperbole around their abilities, or lack thereof can be unfair and unjustified so some feel compelled to defend them. I get that. With that said, I am convinced that a handful of posters on here are friends and family. There is really no other way to explain the personal nature in how they react to any posts that might possibly reflect negatively on the family.
 
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BBHawk

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In all fairness, there are some posters on here that take their opinions too far in regards the McCafferys. The hyperbole around their abilities, or lack thereof can be unfair and unjustified so some feel compelled to defend them. I get that. With that said, I am convinced that a handful of posters on here are friends and family. There is really no other way to explain the personal nature in how they react to any posts that might possibly reflect negatively on the family.
Same could be said about the Murrays. The fact is that both sets of brothers are good for the Hawks. Both deserve minutes. The best 2 should be starting and they are.
 

jonesy5960

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Same could be said about the Murrays. The fact is that both sets of brothers are good for the Hawks. Both deserve minutes. The best 2 should be starting and they are.
Sometimes I can't tell whether you, Perry and Owen are serious or not. This has nothing to do with who the best "brother" is. Leave this emotional attachment that you have out of it. The question is who the best players are and who gives the best chance for the Hawks to have success this season. They should be playing the most minutes. If you have any objectivity whatsoever, focus on the metrics and the metrics are telling you that Kris is the second most effective player on the team this year. The fact that he isn't getting the minutes is a mystery but efficiency and production aren't the reasons because every number tells you otherwise. Maybe Kris is hurt? If so that would explain it but his lack of minutes can't be based on production because his numbers are far superior to everyone not named Keegan.
 

BBHawk

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Sometimes I can't tell whether you, Perry and Owen are serious or not. This has nothing to do with who the best "brother" is. Leave this emotional attachment that you have out of it. The question is who the best players are and who gives the best chance for the Hawks to have success this season. They should be playing the most minutes. If you have any objectivity whatsoever, focus on the metrics and the metrics are telling you that Kris is the second most effective player on the team this year. The fact that he isn't getting the minutes is a mystery but efficiency and production aren't the reasons because every number tells you otherwise. Maybe Kris is hurt? If so that would explain it but his lack of minutes can't be based on production because his numbers are far superior to everyone not named Keegan.
I have no "emotional attachment" to any of these players. PMac is good. Very good. If you can't see that then I am not even going to discuss it with you.
 
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jonesy5960

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I have no "emotional attachment" to any of these players. PMac is good. Very good. If you can't see that then I am not even going to discuss it with you.
LOL. And there you go. I never said anything about Patrick. Seriously what's the connection?
 

RocknRollface

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Analytics do not take into account when the scoring or rebounding occurs. PMac's stats occur in crunch time.
Thats such a ridiculous response.

Pat is talented but he doesn't perform on the court better than Kris.

Pat needs to do better at defense and rebounding for being a 6'9 guy with good hops.

Iowa can't afford to not have him be rebounding better.
 

jonesy5960

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You and RnR face should get together.
Nah. Youre a funny guy (or girl). I'm just an analytical observer speaking truth. Seriously though. What's your relationship with the McCaffery clan? You're not very good at hiding it. Whatever it is..
 

BBHawk

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Nah. Youre a funny guy (or girl). I'm just an analytical observer speaking truth. Seriously though. What's your relationship with the McCaffery clan? You're not very good at hiding it. Whatever it is..
I have no ties to them personally, but Ithink Iam a pretty good judge of talent. I am an Iowa fan, been posting on here for several years (a little longer than you or your buddy) and I was a season ticket holder for about 50 years until the pandemic knocked me out of going. I am a loyal fan, too, so I don't turn on players depending on how they did in the last game. I know that both Kris and PMac deserve minutes but I think PMac is just a little more comfortable on both ends than Kris is currently. Will that always be the case? I don't know, but I trust the staff on that one. I guess you two don't.
 

jonesy5960

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I have no ties to them personally, but Ithink Iam a pretty good judge of talent. I am an Iowa fan, been posting on here for several years (a little longer than you or your buddy) and I was a season ticket holder for about 50 years until the pandemic knocked me out of going. I am a loyal fan, too, so I don't turn on players depending on how they did in the last game. I know that both Kris and PMac deserve minutes but I think PMac is just a little more comfortable on both ends than Kris is currently. Will that always be the case? I don't know, but I trust the staff on that one. I guess you two don't.
You know the funny thing is that I don't "turn on" or bash players. I simply express opinions that are backed up by empirical data. You'll notice that my comments regarding Kris seldom if ever mention Pat. You won't find a post of mine bashing Pat as I believe he's a fine player and worthy of minutes. I also have an appreciation for what he's been through to get there. You, Perry and Owen are the ones bringing up Patrick at every opportunity as though you now feel the need to defend him even when he's not being mentioned in a comment. Only a relative or close friend would typically react in this manner so I find it odd that you're not.

With respect to minutes, it makes no sense for people to get angry with a particular player. It's wrong. It's Fran's decision who plays so if someone has a problem with it their angst should be directed at him, not the player. Connor and JBo catch a lot of flack that should be directed at Fran. Fran's going to play his sons whereas someone else might favor another player. Like I've said before it's one of the perks of the job and if it were my kids I'd probably be doing the same so who am I to bitch about it.

I think Kris is a better player than anyone except Keegan. I think he's a better player than Patrick today. I say that not because he's a McCaffery, but because the numbers back that up. When he's been in there he's been a better shooter, rebounder and defender. You can't say he hasn't because the numbers say he has been and the numbers aren't close. Last I checked those 3 skills are pretty important elements of the game. If you can find some empirical evidence to support your argument that Patrick has been a more efficient and productive player then you should share it and we can discuss. Just telling someone that Patrick is better on both ends without any numerical evidence to back it up doesn't carry much weight and not worth discussing.

FWIW I don't expect anything to change, at least in the short term as Fran has shown how he wants the minutes allocated going forward. Injuries/health aside, Fran is likely going to continue playing Patrick and Jbo 23-26 per game with Tony, Ulis, Joe and Rebraca getting 18-22. Kris and Cmac will continue in the 15-17 range with Sandfort at around 10-12. . It is what it is.
 

Lighting Hawk

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Last game it seriously just felt like either Kris was sick/injured, cuz he played so little and when he did he wasn’t great. He’s my favorite player on the team because I think his ceiling is as high as Keegan’s, I don’t get why Fran literally yanked him after like 3 minutes in the first half. Then he benched him in the second after 2-3 mins, and put him back in for a little bit with less than 7 minutes left then when hw got a foul, took him out with like 4 mins left. I’m maybe a little biased but when you know you have a guy that can get you double digits easily and is our best rebounder per/40 probably our best or second best defender, why would you never let him get in rhythm? Only thing I can think of is that he was banged up a bit and we were easily winning so he didn’t want to risk anything especially on an off night against a lesser opponent. Idk
 
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