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Post-vaccination behavior

Melmacian

HR All-State
Dec 9, 2003
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A question that is going to come up more and more is how much can we relax our behavior once we as individuals are vaccinated. It is a complicated question and I have seen varying opinions from smart people, but I will take a stab at answering the question here. There will be people at either extreme who won't change their behavior, but this is for those in the middle who are looking for some guidance. This might get a bit long, but it is a nuanced discussion - consider yourself warned.

The CDC has put out some messaging recently that could be confusing. While they are continuing to recommend people not change their behavior after vaccination, they recently said that people who are fully vaccinated don't have to quarantine. When taken at face value, these recommendations seem to contradict each other, and the first recommendation might dissuade people from getting vaccinated. So does getting vaccinated decrease your risk of COVID enough to warrant a change in behavior? That answer to that question requires many variables.

The variables that come into play are similar to those before vaccination, but vaccination changes some of the values. These include:
1. Community transmission - this factors into the risk that any one person you will come in contact with has COVID - The closer this gets to 0, the less the other factors matter
2. The overall riskiness of the gathering - how large is it? what will you be doing? are those you are gathering with vaccinated?
3. The prior behaviors of those you are gathering with
4. The effectiveness of the vaccine - does it prevent severe disease? mild disease? asymptomatic disease? transmission?
5. Your personal risk tolerance

What we know about the vaccine - Based on research studies and a recent 'real-life' study from Israel, these vaccines are very effective at preventing severe disease and symptomatic disease. They are 95% effective at preventing symptomatic disease and there have been very few severe COVID cases in those vaccinated. I think the Israel study showed for over 600,000 vaccinated individuals, only 608 were infected and 0 died.

We we don't know but can presume - The vaccine will likely decrease the rate of transmission. We know asymptomatic individuals are less likely to transmit the infection and we know that the vaccine significantly decreases symptomatic COVID, so it would stand to reason that this will decrease transmission to some extent, but the exact level is not known. My personal guess is that it will significantly decrease the risk of transmission, but we can't yet say that for certain.



So what is the real-life application of this once you are vaccinated? It depends on the scenario. Here are my thoughts:

A small group of fully vaccinated friends - It is highly unlikely that there would be any transmission among the group, especially if any other mitigation efforts take place. The risk of a fully vaccinated person having asymptomatic infection and passing it along to another fully vaccinated person would be exceedingly low. The risk of that 2nd vaccinated person having a serious case of COVID would have to be approaching 0.

The common question: 2 unvaccinated parents with 2 kids in daycare/school, wanting to know about visiting their vaccinated parents/grandparents. If you look at the numbers, the risk of the grandparents getting severe COVID is low. I think the following math is correct. At the current cases/100K rate in Iowa, assuming we detect 1/2 of cases, the risk that any one randomly selected unvaccinated person has COVID is ~0.25% (rough estimate), making the total risk of 1 of those 4 having it being 1%. Risk of transmission to household contacts from prior studies is up to 15% (usually lower - could be much higher with new variants). Now assume 95% decrease in risk of getting COVID due to the vaccination, and the risk of each individual grandparent getting symptomatic COVID would be 1% * 15% * .05% x 2 (accounting for the fact that either grandparent could get it). My math shows a risk of 0.015% for one of the grandparents getting symptomatic COVID, or 1.5 in 10,000. The risk of getting severe COVID is likely much lower based on the low number of severe cases seen in the trials and replicated in Israel.

Now if you flip that question on it's head and ask what is the risk of the grandparents having asymptomatic infection and transmitting it to their children or grandchildren, we have to make an assumption of how much the vaccine will decrease risk of transmission. If we conservatively say 50% decrease in transmission (which is likely way too low) and no effect on decreasing asymptomatic infection (likely not true), the risk would still be in the 10-20/10,000 range. If the vaccine does better than that with decreasing transmission and decreasing asymptomatic infections, those numbers would be much lower. If we are talking otherwise young and healthy people, their risk of severe disease would be extremely low as well.

My personal question: 2 vaccinated adults with 2 unvaccinated young children visiting vaccinated parents. The main risk here is the unvaccinated kids (who are at daycare) transmitting it to their vaccinated grandparents. However, using the assumptions above, the risk of the grandparents getting symptomatic COVID from their unvaccinated grandchildren would be 7.5 in 100,000 (0.5% that either kid has it, 15% household transmission risk, 95% reduction in risk for the grandparents from being vaccinated). Again, that is just the risk for any symptoms, and the risk of severe disease is significantly lower than that.

What not to do: All of the above examples are small gatherings, and therefore the minuscule risk of transmission wouldn't likely contribute to many downstream infections that could affect additional (potentially unvaccinated or high risk) people. I would still avoid large gatherings, gatherings with high-risk unvaccinated individuals, or high risk activities, etc until we see a significant decrease in community transmission, but small, low-risk gatherings with vaccinated people are reasonable to consider depending on your risk tolerance.

Anyone who has been following my intermittent posts throughout all of this knows that I have been on the risk-averse side of these discussions. However, COVID risk isn't going to be 0 anytime soon, and as vaccination rates continue to increase and data of effectiveness start to accumulate, we need to start thinking about how to move forward with the next stage of the pandemic. These numbers take a lot of assumptions into account, but at least provide a sense of what risk we are talking about. Changes that could affect these calculations include new data that will come in regarding transmission after vaccination, an overall change in community transmission rates, the emergence of variants (increasing transmissability or decreasing vaccine effectiveness), etc.

Cue tl;dr and 'i was told there would be no math'. Thanks to all of those who made it this far for listening.
 
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I have been a strong proponent of (and adherent to) all of the covid precautions. I wear masks, socially distance, I have not seen my father or siblings families in many many months and I have yet to eat in a restaurant.

When it is my turn to get the vaccine I will wait the recommended period from CDC, but then I am turning my life back on again. Travel, visiting family and friends, and going to live sports and concerts will feature prominently. The Israeli study suggests there is very limited risk once vaccinated and I am going to live my life to the fullest.
 
I have been a strong proponent of (and adherent to) all of the covid precautions. I wear masks, socially distance, I have not seen my father or siblings families in many many months and I have yet to eat in a restaurant.

When it is my turn to get the vaccine I will wait the recommended period from CDC, but then I am turning my life back on again. Travel, visiting family and friends, and going to live sports and concerts will feature prominently. The Israeli study suggests there is very limited risk once vaccinated and I am going to live my life to the fullest.
Well stated and I'm in agreement with you.
 
I have been a strong proponent of (and adherent to) all of the covid precautions. I wear masks, socially distance, I have not seen my father or siblings families in many many months and I have yet to eat in a restaurant.

When it is my turn to get the vaccine I will wait the recommended period from CDC, but then I am turning my life back on again. Travel, visiting family and friends, and going to live sports and concerts will feature prominently. The Israeli study suggests there is very limited risk once vaccinated and I am going to live my life to the fullest.

Yep, this "we must remain under full COVID precaution even after vaccination" creates a perverse incentive against vaccination. This must end immediately. We need to promise a return to normal for those that have vaccinated, not endless lockdown.

Israel is once again doing it right on this:

 
I have been a strong proponent of (and adherent to) all of the covid precautions. I wear masks, socially distance, I have not seen my father or siblings families in many many months and I have yet to eat in a restaurant.

When it is my turn to get the vaccine I will wait the recommended period from CDC, but then I am turning my life back on again. Travel, visiting family and friends, and going to live sports and concerts will feature prominently. The Israeli study suggests there is very limited risk once vaccinated and I am going to live my life to the fullest.

I don't think that is unreasonable, and I appreciate your diligence up to this point. Hopefully by then the community rates will have continued to trend down. The only missing piece is knowing how well these vaccines will decrease transmission, but I would be absolutely shocked if they don't decrease it significantly. I too am anxious to get back to live sports, it was a pretty big component of my social life before all of this.
 
Yep, this "we must remain under full COVID precaution even after vaccination" creates a perverse incentive against vaccination. This must end immediately. We need to promise a return to normal for those that have vaccinated, not endless lockdown.

Israel is once again doing it right on this:


I agree, that was what I was trying to get across in my overly lengthy post. I think that messaging, while I understand the sentiment, is counterproductive and probably unnecessary. I expect that messaging to change in the next month or so as we learn more about the effect on transmission. I also wonder how much of it is a concern for creating inequalities in accepted behaviors before the vaccine is widely available. I imagine it would have poor optics if all of the healthcare workers started living life as before when they were the only ones able to get vaccines up front.
 
As some who was 2 weeks past my second shot on Monday it sucks because there isn't going to be any more big changes until a lot more people are vaccinated. So the going back to living "normal" life again won't be for a long time until others get vaccinated.

I'm not complaining and it will still be mask and hand sanitizer for me.
 
Both of you have this backwards. If everyone stopped wearing a mask then it is like a big sign that you would be wearing on your face saying you are not vaccinated. It will very quickly go to no one wearing masks at all, because not very many people to sit in a room with others and be the 9nly one wearing a mask.

Wearing a mask is more of a symbol than for actual protection though after being vaccinated. It tells everyone that you are concerned for everyones safety.

Stopping wearing a mask now is like giving up with 10 meters left at the end of a race. Sure 8ts possible you might still win, but chances go up significantly that you lose.

I propose everyone continue to wear a mask until June first. I think most people will be vaccinated by then and numbers will be way down still.


Yep, this "we must remain under full COVID precaution even after vaccination" creates a perverse incentive against vaccination. This must end immediately. We need to promise a return to normal for those that have vaccinated, not endless lockdown.

Israel is once again doing it right on this:

If we want to encourage people to be vaccinated, telling them they’d need to continue avoiding society is not a winning message.
As finally acknowledged above, the risk is never going to be zero.
 
2 weeks after a person is fully vaccinated the gloves are off. This madness has to end.
I am curious if you think that non-vaccinated people should be allowed into large group settings as we are still rolling out the vaccine or say end of '21 when most have had the opportunity to vaccinate.

I wouldn't say "the gloves are off" cause there are still folks who can't get the vaccine, but we should be mostly returned to normalcy.
 
I am curious if you think that non-vaccinated people should be allowed into large group settings as we are still rolling out the vaccine or say end of '21 when most have had the opportunity to vaccinate.

I wouldn't say "the gloves are off" cause there are still folks who can't get the vaccine, but we should be mostly returned to normalcy.

Yes people who aren’t vaccinated should be allowed to do as they please including joining large groups.
 
Both of you have this backwards. If everyone stopped wearing a mask then it is like a big sign that you would be wearing on your face saying you are not vaccinated. It will very quickly go to no one wearing masks at all, because not very many people to sit in a room with others and be the 9nly one wearing a mask.

Wearing a mask is more of a symbol than for actual protection though after being vaccinated. It tells everyone that you are concerned for everyones safety.

Stopping wearing a mask now is like giving up with 10 meters left at the end of a race. Sure 8ts possible you might still win, but chances go up significantly that you lose.

I propose everyone continue to wear a mask until June first. I think most people will be vaccinated by then and numbers will be way down still.

Yeah, I didn't really get around to how this should affect behavior in public, and agree with your thoughts for the most part. I think small gatherings with vaccinated (or mostly vaccinated) people can safely be done as outlined in my OP. However, we should continue to take similar precautions in public until the community transmission rate is lower, for a few reasons. We don't have firm data on the decrease in transmission, so what can be low risk in a gathering of 2 families is not as low risk when a large group is involved. In a large group you also don't know if someone else around is high risk, whereas that information is more available in a get together with family or another close friend. Also, as you mentioned, there is the behavioral aspect of things, and the difficulty for businesses to enforce mask mandates depending on vaccination status.
 
You can't just say continue to take precautions until transmission is 'lower'.
Because that isn't an actionable goal. It will never be 'low enough' for many people.
And, high risk individuals should not be in large groups. It's up to them to protect themselves. Not to ask low risk individuals to change their behavior because a high risk person won't change theirs.
 
You can't just say continue to take precautions until transmission is 'lower'.
Because that isn't an actionable goal. It will never be 'low enough' for many people.
And, high risk individuals should not be in large groups. It's up to them to protect themselves. Not to ask low risk individuals to change their behavior because a high risk person won't change theirs.

That level of detail is out of my level of expertise, so I would defer to the CDC and other experts to guide that. If you want my opinion on something discreet and actionable, I will spitball. Something like <1 new infection per day per 100K population would be a start, but it would likely need to be combined with continued monitoring for future local outbreaks, with a willingness to intensify mitigation efforts if those are seen (such as recommending masks, etc). If it turns out the vaccine truly does turn this into a risk similar to influenza or even less, then even that might not be necessary.

The other variable is we should wait until vaccines are readily available so that anyone who wants one can get one.
 
That level of detail is out of my level of expertise, so I would defer to the CDC and other experts to guide that. If you want my opinion on something discreet and actionable, I will spitball. Something like <1 new infection per day per 100K population would be a start, but it would likely need to be combined with continued monitoring for future local outbreaks, with a willingness to intensify mitigation efforts if those are seen (such as recommending masks, etc). If it turns out the vaccine truly does turn this into a risk similar to influenza or even less, then even that might not be necessary.

The other variable is we should wait until vaccines are readily available so that anyone who wants one can get one.

I think you are mostly reasonable, and you've admitted that you are risk averse. The CDC has flopped around so much, they don't have much credibility left with anyone who's been paying attention. Now some will say they just change as they learn more. That may be true for some things, but they shouldn't be making pronouncements when they don't know they answer, or worse, lying because they have other motives. Some will say they are just acting out of an abundance of caution. That may be true too, but they should say that, so when they get new information, they won't look like fools.
 
When I say everyone should be encouraged to go back to living their life immediately post-vaccine, I'm not talking about once the vaccine is readily available to all that want it. I agree that it's not great optics for health care workers to start partying.

But there's speculation that by April or May it could be available to anyone that wants it. At that point, if people refuse, it's on them, but the idea being promoted that we stay locked down and distanced for the rest of the year and beyond because COVID will still exist can get bent.

As for the small amount of people that CAN'T get they vaccine, then it will be THEIR responsibility to stay out of bars and movie theaters, but we can't stay shut down because they won't stay out of danger.
 
I think you are mostly reasonable, and you've admitted that you are risk averse. The CDC has flopped around so much, they don't have much credibility left with anyone who's been paying attention. Now some will say they just change as they learn more. That may be true for some things, but they shouldn't be making pronouncements when they don't know they answer, or worse, lying because they have other motives. Some will say they are just acting out of an abundance of caution. That may be true too, but they should say that, so when they get new information, they won't look like fools.

Yeah, the reputation of the CDC has taken a big hit in the past year. I used to rely on their guidance a lot for my job and always had confidence in what they said or recommended. However, it seemed like some of their statements and recommendations in the last year weren’t always based on science or data and more driven by politics or trying to manipulate the behavior of the population.

For example, I said at the onset that their statement that masks weren’t helpful was misleading. In the hospital we wore masks (with eye protection) in patient rooms with COVID and didn’t have hospital outbreaks. I knew what they were trying to say, but how they said it was inaccurate and misleading.

That being said, I think we will see that things will be different with their new leadership. From all I have seen, she is highly respected, highly regarded, and not politically driven. I might end up being wrong, but I am willing to give the ‘new’ CDC a chance.
 
If these quotes are legit, here is Fauci’s take regarding these interactions. He also makes the distinction between what can be done privately and publicly, until vaccinations are widespread

 
I get my shot this afternoon and I will be following the CDC guidelines as well as using my own judgement as I have the past year and that is to follow the basic rules for the foreseeable future. I can only be responsible for me.
 
You can't just say continue to take precautions until transmission is 'lower'.
Because that isn't an actionable goal. It will never be 'low enough' for many people.
And, high risk individuals should not be in large groups. It's up to them to protect themselves. Not to ask low risk individuals to change their behavior because a high risk person won't change theirs.
This is correct. SARS-Cov-2 will always be here. The chances of eradicating it are so close to zero it’s impractical to talk about. The CDC needs to establish a baseline numbers of Covid infections to determine what constitutes an epidemic, similar to how influenza epidemics are determined. I expect this to happen by the end of 2021.
 
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I get my 2nd shot on March 4th. More importantly, my 65+ dad who is overweight and has other issues gets his 2nd shot the same day. He will be excited to see his 2 grandsons and watch some Iowa basketball with me.
 
And a few threads from one of the epidemiologists at the VA that has been very outspoken about the lax restrictions (and a response from another epidemiologist who used to be the chief quality and safety officer at UIHC and is now the CMO at West Virginia).



 
My thought is that we should back to business as usual once everyone* has had a chance to be vaccinated. *Everyone being adults for which the vaccine is recommended.

Unvaccinated -> Unvaccinated = highest risk of spread (must wear a mask)
Unvaccinated -> Vaccinated = moderate risk of spread, small risk of bad outcome (should wear a mask)
Vaccinated -> Unvaccinated = small risk of spread, moderate risk of bad outcome (should wear a mask)
Vaccinated -> Vaccinated = smallest risk of spread, smallest risk of bad outcome (mask no longer necessary)
 
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Wife has had both doses and I had Covid in December (runny nose for 24 hours and that was it). We have dined out a couple times since we are clear for a while but still wear masks all the time.
 
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