PPP "Biggest Fraud in a Generation"

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Many who participated in what prosecutors are calling the largest fraud in U.S. history — the theft of hundreds of billions of dollars in taxpayer money intended to help those harmed by the coronavirus pandemic — couldn’t resist purchasing luxury automobiles. Also mansions, private jet flights and swanky vacations.

They came into their riches by participating in what experts say is the theft of as much as $80 billion — or about 10 percent — of the $800 billion handed out in a Covid relief plan known as the Paycheck Protection Program, or PPP. That’s on top of the $90 billion to $400 billion believed to have been stolen from the $900 billion Covid unemployment relief program — at least half taken by international fraudsters — as NBC News reported last year. And another $80 billion potentially pilfered from a separate Covid disaster relief program.

Theft from the Covid relief plan known as PPP was even worse than we thought

The official in charge of Covid relief tells NBC News' Lester Holt that programs like PPP were structured in ways that were "an invitation" to fraudsters.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[red/green hawk]

What?!? Come on OP, this just isn't possible. Are you sure your source is reputable?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Between PPP and Unemployment fraud....possibly $400B +


Mind bottling....

 

[anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r]

A hasty give away of billions by the Trump administration led to the biggest fraud in American history? Par for the course.

I would believe it though, I don’t know how many stories in the press I read about people buying cars, expensive farm ground and ranches. PPP was the biggest joke in American history. Should have just cut every single American massive checks and let the market decide what businesses survived.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Who couldn’t see this coming?

Here’s the part I don’t get:

Most of the losses are considered unrecoverable, but there is still a chance to stanch the bleeding, because federal officials say $600 billion is still waiting to go out the door.

What?!? Why?

 

[Drake__Mallard]

Seen it first hand in companies that werent affected by the pandemic. Led to some nice bonuses to upper management while keeping that secretary at $13 dollars an hour. Gotta love it!

 

[gohawks50]

I wonder if this had anything to do with fraud being easily committed,

Inspectors general warn that Trump administration is blocking scrutiny of coronavirus rescue programs​

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

I wonder if this had anything to do with fraud being easily committed,

Inspectors general warn that Trump administration is blocking scrutiny of coronavirus rescue programs​

Probably...boondoggle.

 

[thewop]

I remember people locally telling me this program was getting abused because there weren't verifications for much of anything.

I figured it was a few individuals saying they were out of work when they weren't and double dipping. I also figured they'd get caught come tax time.

If you want to put Trump in jail for something, this should be it. Let it cut deep too. The house and senate leaders, committee heads that drew it up too. Bring the hammer down on all of them.

Or use their connections to get the money back without harming the taxpayer (yeah right).

 

[millah_22]

I assume for every business that frauded the system there were an equal or greater number of businesses that this program saved from going under. It's a shame because I can see this being used as an excuse to never help small businesses like this again.

 

[noleclone2]

Yep. Saw some local law firms here take it who had no reason to. Heck, some of them had record years. The list was a eye opener. Not a lot of thought went into it.

I feel the same way with the three stimulus payments they rolled out. There was zero true effort made to figure out how to do it, just “everyone gets a car” unless you make too much. Sure, I may be bitter because I did not qualify due to income, but holy hell, I know so many families that lost not one dime of income, including numerous coworkers, that were doing pretty well that racked in thousands and thousands and thousands ….that they did not ask for or need, but they were more than happy to have it.

Now think of all the businesses that really did suffer and employees who got laid off and how much those combined programs could have kept literally everyone of them afloat and employees fully compensated. They just needed to put some effort into thinking how to best do it. I blame both parties. Lazy ****ers.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Shocked that a group that claims "business expense" on personal spending would do such a thing.

 

[Drake__Mallard]

I assume for every business that frauded the system there were an equal or greater number of businesses that this program saved from going under. It's a shame because I can see this being used as an excuse to never help small businesses like this again.

Probably more businesses, but more money went to big companies that didnt need it. Im just guessing of course. Could be wrong.

 

[Funky Bunch]

Between PPP and Unemployment fraud....possibly $400B +


Mind bottling....

Is this just the amount that was obtained using fraudulent information?

 

[UncannyNanny]

You mean people were taking advantage of free money being handed out?

 

[hawkeyez]

Meanwhile, I personally received $0.00 in COVID money. Yet I'm certainly paying for it on the back end with all of this inflation.

 

[Tom Paris]

Many who participated in what prosecutors are calling the largest fraud in U.S. history — the theft of hundreds of billions of dollars in taxpayer money intended to help those harmed by the coronavirus pandemic — couldn’t resist purchasing luxury automobiles. Also mansions, private jet flights and swanky vacations.

They came into their riches by participating in what experts say is the theft of as much as $80 billion — or about 10 percent — of the $800 billion handed out in a Covid relief plan known as the Paycheck Protection Program, or PPP. That’s on top of the $90 billion to $400 billion believed to have been stolen from the $900 billion Covid unemployment relief program — at least half taken by international fraudsters — as NBC News reported last year. And another $80 billion potentially pilfered from a separate Covid disaster relief program.

Theft from the Covid relief plan known as PPP was even worse than we thought

The official in charge of Covid relief tells NBC News' Lester Holt that programs like PPP were structured in ways that were "an invitation" to fraudsters.

www.nbcnews.com

Of course the wealthy stole money from the taxpayers. Mnuchin was overseeing the whole thing. We knew this was going to happen at the time. It was obvious when entities like Ruth Chris and the LA Lakers were applying for that money. It's disgusting.

 

[Tom Paris]

I remember people locally telling me this program was getting abused because there weren't verifications for much of anything.

I figured it was a few individuals saying they were out of work when they weren't and double dipping. I also figured they'd get caught come tax time.

If you want to put Trump in jail for something, this should be it. Let it cut deep too. The house and senate leaders, committee heads that drew it up too. Bring the hammer down on all of them.

Or use their connections to get the money back without harming the taxpayer (yeah right).

I actually LOL'd when Trump was asked who was going to oversee the distribution of these monies and he said he would. We everyday Americans just get screwed constantly by rich people.

 

[BioHawk]

Many who participated in what prosecutors are calling the largest fraud in U.S. history — the theft of hundreds of billions of dollars in taxpayer money intended to help those harmed by the coronavirus pandemic — couldn’t resist purchasing luxury automobiles. Also mansions, private jet flights and swanky vacations.

They came into their riches by participating in what experts say is the theft of as much as $80 billion — or about 10 percent — of the $800 billion handed out in a Covid relief plan known as the Paycheck Protection Program, or PPP. That’s on top of the $90 billion to $400 billion believed to have been stolen from the $900 billion Covid unemployment relief program — at least half taken by international fraudsters — as NBC News reported last year. And another $80 billion potentially pilfered from a separate Covid disaster relief program.

Theft from the Covid relief plan known as PPP was even worse than we thought

The official in charge of Covid relief tells NBC News' Lester Holt that programs like PPP were structured in ways that were "an invitation" to fraudsters.

www.nbcnews.com

Gee, all the oversight included in the bill was line-item vetoed (something that is unconstitutional) and people are surprised that a bunch of fraud happened? Wasn't Mnuchin and Jared responsible for overseeing distribution of funds? Sounds like they need their asses hauled in front Congress and answer some questions. They shouldn't have to worry much though. Garland doesn't seem interested in holding anyone from the previous administration accountable for anything.

Not that we needed another one, but this is what happens when you fail to enforce any rules. Especially at the government level.

 

[Brian_Fantana]

IMO, the concept of it was good; but it was a shitshow, that is for sure. Not sure how it could have been governed better as Lender's were in such a rush to get money out the door, it almost seemed as if they were the ones trying to defraud the government. Hell, my dad and uncle have run a tiling business (field drainage tile) for 40 years and have one employee and his Accountant was trying to get him to request money (he didn't because Covid didn't stop him working for 1 min). Many of the small businesses truly needed the money to keep employees paid and something needed to happen fast; but it was clear from the start there would be a ton of fraud here. The underwriting process was a joke with very little verifications being done, if any. Certainly not defending the administration; but there is a lot of blame on the lenders giving the cash as well. And let's not forget a little personal responsibility from the folks that actually committed the fraud.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I assume for every business that frauded the system there were an equal or greater number of businesses that this program saved from going under. It's a shame because I can see this being used as an excuse to never help small businesses like this again.

Correct. ^^ I can tell you for a fact that this program legitimately helped/saved multiple businesses AND was also used, even abused, by others. Both things are true, but the focus in the media now seems to be only on the abuse.

The unprecedented and massive plan was put together and executed in a very, very short amount of time, which absolutely contributed to the "misses", but I agree, let's not forget the good that came out of it too and not focus only on the downsides.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Is this just the amount that was obtained using fraudulent information?

Reading the article it's fraudulent info and spending on fraudulent things....basically a smorgasbord of fraud

 

[HawkeyeShawn]

Banks made $2k for each PPP forgivable loan they processed. Our local banker was encouraging small business owners to take out the loans. Nobody was going to check and make sure the money was spent approximately. He talked my Dad into a loan. I tried to talk him out of it as my fathers business was not hurt 1 penny from COVID. His 2020 tax bill was $60k and he looked at PPP as a way to get 50% of that back. At $2k a pop, no wonder the banks encouraged this.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

... The underwriting process was a joke with very little verifications being done, if any. ...

FWIW, this was not my personal experience when applying for the PPP, at all. I had to produce volumes of data, and loads of supporting documentation. It was then reviewed in a very detailed way with my banker and so forth.

Now then, I gather that my experience was not the same as everyone else's, but I think you should be careful in making such broad statements. What is true for one, need not be true for another. I am going to assume that my bank operated to a different standard than did some others.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Of course the wealthy stole money from the taxpayers. Mnuchin was overseeing the whole thing. We knew this was going to happen at the time. It was obvious when entities like Ruth Chris and the LA Lakers were applying for that money. It's disgusting.

On the unemployment benefit apparently a lot of the fraud was foreign which is mind bowing as well...

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Gee, all the oversight included in the bill was line-item vetoed (something that is unconstitutional) and people are surprised that a bunch of fraud happened? Wasn't Mnuchin and Jared responsible for overseeing distribution of funds? Sounds like they need their asses hauled in front Congress and answer some questions. They shouldn't have to worry much though. Garland doesn't seem interested in holding anyone from the previous administration accountable for anything.

Not that we needed another one, but this is what happens when you fail to enforce any rules. Especially at the government level.

Link to the line item veto? Haven't seen that....

 

[BioHawk]

Link to the line item veto? Haven't seen that....

They didn't call it this and it was done indirectly, of course, but that's what it was in practice.

Trump removes independent watchdog for coronavirus funds, upending oversight panel

The move comes as Trump makes a broad push against inspectors general scrutinizing his actions.

www.politico.com

 

[jasonrann]

I know someone (allegedly) that consistently pulls in $20 million net income off a $220 million revenue business. He applied for and received PPP dollars. His exact words, "it's free money, dude".

 

[Titanhawk2]

A hasty give away of billions by the Trump administration led to the biggest fraud in American history? Par for the course.

I would believe it though, I don’t know how many stories in the press I read about people buying cars, expensive farm ground and ranches. PPP was the biggest joke in American history. Should have just cut every single American massive checks and let the market decide what businesses survived.

Created by a Dem Congress. You do know how appropriating government money works, don't you?

 

[IsaacHarrison]

FWIW, this was not my personal experience when applying for the PPP, at all. I had to produce volumes of data, and loads of supporting documentation. It was then reviewed in a very detailed way with my banker and so forth.

Now then, I gather that my experience was not the same as everyone else's, but I think you should be careful in making such broad statements. What is true for one, need not be true for another. I am going to assume that my bank operated to a different standard than did some others.

Same here. Seems like alot of people act like they know the process, yet havent even looked at the application or forgiveness requirements. Im assuming this article talks about people producing fraudulent docs, not actual businesses.

 

[Funky Bunch]

Reading the article it's fraudulent info and spending on fraudulent things....basically a smorgasbord of fraud

Yeah, I feel like most of the posts here are referring to people that got it legally but didn't really need it. That was my first thought too. But that's not what the article is about.

 

[IsaacHarrison]

I know someone (allegedly) that consistently pulls in $20 million net income off a $220 million revenue business. He applied for and received PPP dollars. His exact words, "it's free money, dude".

While this may be true, there are alot very successful businesses that applied not knowing what the future would hold. Mine was shut down for 2 months and I received the first PPP during this time. Its kinda hard to blame them for applying while the entire world was at one of the most unprecedented times in US history. But yes, alot of businesses were unaffected yet received the PPP. Kinda how alot of gov programs go.

 

[whatsup13579er]

Independent contractors in my neck of the woods came out of PPP with 10s of thousands in extra money. Pretty simple ruse, they just didn't send out invoices for a few months to show their lost revenue even though they were working the whole time. I assume this was the same among many industries.

 

[Mayland]

The retail ag sector and farmers made off like bandits. Completely unaffected by the pandemic but many farmers received checks between 40,000-80,000.

 

[Saint Louis Attorney]

Independent contractors in my neck of the woods came out of PPP with 10s of thousands in extra money. Pretty simple ruse, they just didn't send out invoices for a few months to show their lost revenue even though they were working the whole time. I assume this was the same among many industries.

There was no requirement to show a loss of revenues so delaying invoices makes no sense.

 

[West Duval Nole]

Government sets up a quick plan to hand out money and there is fraud. So shocking!

 

[Finance85]

I assume for every business that frauded the system there were an equal or greater number of businesses that this program saved from going under. It's a shame because I can see this being used as an excuse to never help small businesses like this again.

It would be better if state and local politicians wouldn't shut businesses down.

 

[red/green hawk]

A hasty give away of billions by the Trump administration led to the biggest fraud in American history? Par for the course.

I would believe it though, I don’t know how many stories in the press I read about people buying cars, expensive farm ground and ranches. PPP was the biggest joke in American history. Should have just cut every single American massive checks and let the market decide what businesses survived.

To pin this solely on Trump is incorrect. This was a bipartisan cluster eff. There should be finger pointing at both parties. Government's entire response to Covid was/is a joke. The PPP just elevates it to absolute absurdity.

 

[bunsen82]

So as an aside, the majority of the PPP money was used correctly, all of my clients it appears was used in appropriate manner, whether business owners farmers ect. Its not to say there was some abuse, but I would guess 95-98% was used correctly. However we can also see there was clear abuse, but more abuse was created with just trying to get the money out as quickly as possible in a shotgun approach. I think overall it was fairly affective in its objectives, but now that its over we can be subjective in what would need to improve if we would ever use this as method to assist business in a time of need again. For most of my businesses and farmers they didn't need the money. However there were 5-10 that would have gone bankrupt had they not received the PPP.

 

[bhawk24bob]

It was amazing from a banking perspective how a 3rd party market popped up overnight to vette the applications, how these 3rd parties knew all of the particulars needed to get the loans approved, and how banks were to disregard all fraud/aml safeguards because the 3rd parties were to have controls in place