They both probably lead to nowhere. That said, mine isn't an entirely materialist (or physicalist) worldview. It simply isn't theist.
Question for atheists
- Thread starter Hock-I
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By-product, sure; not the objective. The objective, as you say, is to reduce unwanted pregnancies. Abortion is a perfectly reasonable way to do that. There are other ways - occurring earlier in the process - that are arguably better although, as I suggested, sometimes no less risky or problematic.
Abortion is always the result of a woman being placed in a difficult position, and always requires a difficult choice. Reducing abortion by reducing the number of women who are placed in this position (through better education and access to birth control) is, I believe, the goal people have in mind when they say they want to reduce abortions.
I have no idea why God didn't create us perfect. I think God wants us to strive to be perfect. I don't think it's reasonable to compare heaven to our current state.
I just received an e-mail from my boy Howard Storm (the NDE survivor) I thought it was interesting regarding heaven. I had a client that was an Atheist college film professor and we talked about religion, God and the afterlife. My client said he thought "heaven would be boring because we'd be there forever. The thought of being anywhere forever troubles me."
I posed this to Howard Storm.
His response:
Brian,
Everything that is good that ever was or will be in heaven. Heaven is vast and infinitely varied. The professor is profoundly ignorant of the wonders of heaven.
Howard Storm sounds like an asshat.
He became a self described "zealot" after his experience. I'm sure it rubs some people the wrong way
Then they should say that clearly. Saying you want to reduce abortions without that understanding creates - through well-understood processes of cognitive dissonance - the belief that abortions are bad.
There are, of course, plenty of folks who believe that abortions are bad because of their religious beliefs. Fine. Their right. But we should not concede that ground in the public sphere.
Abortions are not inherently bad. An abortion is merely a tool, a process, that should be available whenever it is the pragmatic choice. Such as whenever the options to prevent fertilization haven't worked and the pregnancy is unwanted by the mother. Even when the pregnant woman changes her mind about a previously wanted pregnancy.
He became a self described "zealot" after his experience. I'm sure it rubs some people the wrong way
Someone who knows nothing about a subject, then smugly tells others that they are ignorant, is an asshat. An asshats rub people the wrong way.
Abortions aren't inherently bad according to you. That's just your opinion.
He's not the only one. What I don't get is the need to lie about others in defense of your beliefs. Is that a characteristic of zealotry?
Storm is a very educated guy. I wouldn't call him ignorant. That's my opinion of him.
Prove me wrong.
You can't - without resorting to religion or the supernatural.
It's just a medical procedure. It can be badly performed, it can be a relatively worse procedure than others in some cases, but it isn't inherently bad. Not even the purpose it's put to - to terminate a pregnancy - is inherently bad.
Here, let me pose these questions for religious folk who oppose abortion:
1) If God told you to perform, have or permit an abortion, would you? Would it still be bad?
2) Suppose a woman were pregnant with the Antichrist. Would an abortion still be bad?
Abortion is the killing of an innocent life. Many people without religion think it's wrong.
Your opinion isn't fact.
There are far, far more spontaneous abortions every year than surgical ones. Why does God provide so many abortions?
I don't know. I do know there is a difference between accidental and deliberate.
Or the difference can be described as different expressions of natural forces.
So your version of God isn't omnipotent and omniscient? 'Cause if he is, every one of those spontaneous abortions is deliberate.
I don't disagree with you. But I am responding to the world in which we live. Had humans remained religioun-less, simply living by the laws and within the constraints of nature…
There is agreement on that. If there's a god, he's one clumsy SOB.
Ok what? God isn't all-powerful or God is the greatest abortionist of all?
I believe God allows bad things to happen but also prevents them. The "why" of it all is a mystery.
Why have all Gods down through the ages always been unseen beings? Why does God have to remain invisible? What purpose does that serve?
So an all-powerful God practices abortions for "His" mysterious purposes and that's ok. But someone who does it for their purposes is condemned to Hell. That about it?
No. You're missing the point, as you often do. God may allow a miscarriage, but he doesn't cause it. For more detailed explanation, you'll have to ask a professional theologian.
Although one could argue that God can do whatever He wants...because He's God.
Almost nobody thinks killing innocent life is wrong. Except maybe Buddhists.
We all blithely kill insects without conscious thought and actively and even happily kill bacteria, cancer cells, insects, rodents, various vermin, and predators.
So it isn't innocent life that we think it's wrong to extinguish.
Abortion reduces crime, death, poverty and abuse. Something that does that much good can't be called inherently bad.
Fetuses are all superior to those life forms.
If given a choice, would you shoot a 12 year old kid or a deer?
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