Question RE: End of Life

LuteHawk

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Nov 30, 2011
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Today, most folks have a Living Will which says that
the person does not wish to be keep alive by artificial
or mechanical means. The real question is this:
Is the person actually living or is a machine living for them?
With no brain activity or heart activity the person is
not really alive and the family can respectfully pull the plug.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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But what if your doctor is pro-life and has decided that because of their personal religious beliefs, they know better than you — and thus they have decided to keep you alive, contrary to your and your family’s wishes?

Nice strawman

Pro-life people understand terminating life support on a person who has no chance at a future life not attached to heavy life support.

What we don't accept is "terminating life support" on people who have a very good chance at a future life not attached to any life support.
 

RileyHawk

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Nice strawman

Pro-life people understand terminating life support on a person who has no chance at a future life not attached to heavy life support.

What we don't accept is "terminating life support" on people who have a very good chance at a future life not attached to any life support.
So terminating a pregnancy that has been medically determined not to have a future life is OK?
 

St. Louis Hawk

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What we don't accept is "terminating life support" on people who have a very good chance at a future life not attached to any life support.

Maybe you because you are a reasonable poster and consistent in your personal beliefs.

But many states have trigger laws and others will pass total bans on essentially all abortions.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Maybe you because you are a reasonable poster and consistent in your personal beliefs.

But many states have trigger laws and others will pass total bans on essentially all abortions.

Name one that doesn't allow exceptions to protect the mother's life? Because all of the ones I've seen that the left is having meltdowns about leave exceptions to protect the mother's life.
 
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THE_DEVIL

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It's not taking a life. The "life" isn't capable of living. A person in this condition can't breathe on their own, they can't maintain their nutrition, they can't protect their airway, they likey can't regulate their body temperature. It is perfectly appropriate and ethical to withdrawal care in this situation
So like a fetus
 

Mike Zierath

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If this ever becomes an issue for you in the future, I will be sure to bump this thread for you. Many doctors and lawyers consider HROT posts to be binding, so your wishes would be carried out.
If Mrs Z doesn’t get me first, she knows what to do! Pull the plug, burn me, spread them.
 
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SoFla-Hawkeye

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Nov 12, 2001
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It's not taking a life. The "life" isn't capable of living. A person in this condition can't breathe on their own, they can't maintain their nutrition, they can't protect their airway, they likey can't regulate their body temperature. It is perfectly appropriate and ethical to withdrawal care in this situation
The real question in this and the abortion debate is, “what’s the definition of life?”
 

RileyHawk

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The real question in this and the abortion debate is, “what’s the definition of life?”
I look at it a bit differently. I think this one is when does life end for a human and the other is when does life become a human. For me, it's brain function and the viability to live on your own.
 

Herky T Hawk

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I'm a pull the plug person in cases where there is no chance of recovery, which is what this hypothetical is supposed to be describing.

Honest answer is that my wife's parents are still alive so I'd consult with them before making a decision. I'm going to need their help with explaining the situation to my young kids and then raising them no matter what the decision is. But I'd likely be influencing them towards agreeing with me on the pull the plug.

I'd be interested to see if there are studies on the effects of children having a vegetable parent long-term as opposed to those who had a parent die. My HS girlfriend had her mom die of cancer when she was a freshman and it messed her up a bit like it would to anyone at that age. She definitely wasn't past it when we were dating two years later, but she did still participate in school activities in HS before moving on to college and had some semblance of moving on. I have to think she would have been even more messed up if her mom was still "alive" in a hospital somewhere because she would have been constantly visiting her vegetable mom instead of living her life as a teenager.
 

Derekd3408

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392678db-bbf3-4fc8-9151-a31e5376d3df_text.gif
 

Herky T Hawk

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I look at it a bit differently. I think this one is when does life end for a human and the other is when does life become a human. For me, it's brain function and the viability to live on your own.
You probably need to work on that definition of "live on your own" a bit more. Two year olds can't live on their own but nobody is advocating for killing them off.

I get what you are saying, but this exactly describes the issue at hand. These definitions have to be exact with no gray area.
 

RileyHawk

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You probably need to work on that definition of "live on your own" a bit more. Two year olds can't live on their own but nobody is advocating for killing them off.

I get what you are saying, but this exactly describes the issue at hand. These definitions have to be exact with no gray area.
It's easy to define that more specifically. I figured people on here would get it - but maybe not.

I'll say viability - I believe that's 22 weeks at the earliest. But I'm OK with first breath as well. Much easier definition.
 

hawkbirch

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Mr. Birch has enough life insurance that this is an easy decision. HA!!

We've never discussed this in any detail which is an oversight we should fix. I want no part of existing attached to a machine that is necessary in order for me to continue to "live". If there isn't a really good chance for me to recover, it's time to donate any organ or tissue I have left that could help someone else and let me go. I'm not really interested in suffering through a terminal illness either so I'm open to assisted suicide if the circumstances were right. My kids are too young right now for that option but later in my life, I could be all in.
 

THE_DEVIL

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Mr. Birch has enough life insurance that this is an easy decision. HA!!

We've never discussed this in any detail which is an oversight we should fix. I want no part of existing attached to a machine that is necessary in order for me to continue to "live". If there isn't a really good chance for me to recover, it's time to donate any organ or tissue I have left that could help someone else and let me go. I'm not really interested in suffering through a terminal illness either so I'm open to assisted suicide if the circumstances were right. My kids are too young right now for that option but later in my life, I could be all in.
+28 points.
 

SoFla-Hawkeye

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I look at it a bit differently. I think this one is when does life end for a human and the other is when does life become a human. For me, it's brain function and the viability to live on your own.
I agree. And I believe, with the exception of pro death penalty and a few anti choice zealots, so do the majority of us.
 

Fan In Black

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der der der dert, der der der dert, der, der, der, dert, der, der, DER-DER

darkness imprisoning me
all that I see absolute horror
I cannot live, I cannot die
trapped in myself, body my holding cell
 
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Hawk_82

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Let’s say your significant other suffered a catastrophic accident. They are in the ICU on a ventilator and tests show no brain activity, besides some primitive brain stem function. You’ve had multiple opinions from different doctors and the consensus is they will be reliant on a ventilator and feeding tube until something (pneumonia or another cause of sepsis, probably) kills them with no hope of meaningful recovery. That may take weeks, months, or even years for natural causes to stop their heart and result in true death. They are young and don’t have a living will and never explicitly told you their wishes for a situation like this.

Despite insurance, it’s going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep them going. Maybe even millions. Your entire life is going to change keeping them on that ventilator. Financially, emotionally, psychologically.

Should we, as a society, allow people to withdraw care? They still have a heart beat and are alive. Isn’t it murder to take the patient off the ventilator? Shouldn’t we not force the patient to remain alive as long as possible? Obviously we aren’t paying for it financially as a society. Or are there situations where “pulling the plug” is ok?
I haven't read the rest of the thread, but no, it is not murder to "pull the plug".

By doing so, you are allowing
Thanks for the definition, nurse. They still have a heart beat. Isn’t it worth keeping them alive as long as possible? What if a cure for brain dead is just years away?
Lots of mis information so far, brain dead can mean different things to different people.

It happens fairly frequently that a young person with a brain injury can have a very poor prognosis and be assumed to be brain dead. However, young brains have a remarkable ability to regain some brain function after the brain swelling goes down.

Having said that, if a person has an extremely poor prognosis, it is unlikely they will regain significant function. They will likely require a trach, feeding tube, and significant cares.

My personal feeling is that is more humane to allow the patient to die during the acute injury rather than traching and pegging the patient and then watching them die a long, slow death from infection and bedsores
 

St. Louis Hawk

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plan B in Missouri Hospital system because of prosecution concerns.

The pill will be next.

Good job Supreme Court.