Recruit / Develope?

[r448chlpo]

I come in good faith as a relatively new fan of Iowa wrestling... football bowl game results has caused me to “move on during winter months”
, j know the team has got some high profile recruits but others seem just ok. How far am I off target in that assessment? And, has iowa’s sucess in the Brands coaching era been primary a function of getting great talent or developing it? Who are the two or three most talented and who has made the most “development” in his time on the team? ( Sincere question from someone with lesser knowledge than most of you!)

 

[pablow]

I come in good faith as a relatively new fan of Iowa wrestling... football bowl game results has caused me to “move on during winter months”
, j know the team has got some high profile recruits but others seem just ok. How far am I off target in that assessment? And, has iowa’s sucess in the Brands coaching era been primary a function of getting great talent or developing it? Who are the two or three most talented and who has made the most “development” in his time on the team? ( Sincere question from someone with lesser knowledge than most of you!)

Tom and Terry are tops at developing the lighter weights. However, wrestlers are now so experienced coming out of high school that recruiting has become the name of the game. Tom and Terry stumbled a bit here, but they're on track now.

I suggest you become a full time fan and contribute a little cash to the Hawkeye Wrestling Club. It's better than watching football and basketball.

 

[burk11]

r448chlpo

An opinion of a longtime University of Iowa wrestling fan/follower. All major wrestling programs must recruit talented wrestlers if they expect to be competitive. And those wrestlers must (be) develop in the wrestling room and during the off-season (there is no off-season, wrestling is year round). On occasion will you find that wrestler who has the unique qualities to be a champion. That wrestler must have talent, commitment/dedication and most importantly the mental attitude/mental toughness to be a champion. Once a wrestler develops the necessary skills, much of wrestling is “mental’.

I’m certain that long-time readers/posters on this board have heard the Iowa wrestling staff express their coaching philosophy; “if this young wrestler is willing to do the necessary work, we can teach him all he needs to know”. The University of Iowa staff are knowledgeable coaches (maybe the best), great teachers and individuals of great character. To be among the elite requires hard work. Remember Bruce Kinseth, maybe not the greatest athlete when he enrolled at Iowa, but without question the hardest worker.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

r448chlpo

An opinion of a longtime University of Iowa wrestling fan/follower. All major wrestling programs must recruit talented wrestlers if they expect to be competitive. And those wrestlers must (be) develop in the wrestling room and during the off-season (there is no off-season, wrestling is year round). On occasion will you find that wrestler who has the unique qualities to be a champion. That wrestler must have talent, commitment/dedication and most importantly the mental attitude/mental toughness to be a champion. Once a wrestler develops the necessary skills, much of wrestling is “mental’.

I’m certain that long-time readers/posters on this board have heard the Iowa wrestling staff express their coaching philosophy; “if this young wrestler is willing to do the necessary work, we can teach him all he needs to know”. The University of Iowa staff are knowledgeable coaches (maybe the best), great teachers and individuals of great character. To be among the elite requires hard work. Remember Bruce Kinseth, maybe not the greatest athlete when he enrolled at Iowa, but without question the hardest worker.

Not sure I understand the pic. Is that a picture of you or Bruce Kinseth or the OP? Liked the post, just not sure what the pic is all about.

 

[bbwretler]

Not sure I understand the pic. Is that a picture of you or Bruce Kinseth or the OP? Liked the post, just not sure what the pic is all about.

Photo of Bruce in his office, I would say 20-25 years ago.

 

[YoungGun07]

Great questions, and welcome to the board!

It takes great talent and development to win titles and the success that Iowa has had under Brands has been developing really good recruits into top performers. Examples of this would include Matt McDonough, Derek St. John, Thomas Gilman, Cory Clark, Brandon Sorenson etc.

In wrestling the top 10 guys are typically far and away better than recruits in the 30-100 range, and the previous philosophy was getting several of guys in the 50-100 range vs 1 guy in the 1-10 range.

The top recruit Brands got other than current guys was Brent Metcalf. The top "development" story was Daniel Dennis, who never won a state title, and went on to become an Olympian.

The current elite recruits on the team include Alex Marinelli, Michael Kemerer, Jacob Warner and Spencer Lee. These are the type of recruits that Penn State fills their entire roster with, and has led to their dominance.

To win NCAA titles, Iowa will need a lot of the elite recruits, paired with lower ranked guys that are coached up to be mid to high All Americans.

 

[rossel 33]

YoungGun is spot on.

In recent years, it's clear that top 10 p4p guys are much more likely to score lots of points for the team at ncaa over their careers than guys ranked 11-20, who in turn score more than the 21-30 decile, and so on.

The real cream of the crop - multi-time AA's and champs- Taylor, Ruth, Rethorford, Nolf, Imar, Cox, Dake, Snyder, Steiber, Varner, Metcalf - all came from the top 10.

Iowa has had a drought when it comes to top 10 recruits. None in a 4 year span 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Kemerer (#8) ended the drought when he arrived with the class of 2015. He's a star, and took 3rd as a RS Fr.

In that same 4 years, PSU pulled in 7 top 10 guys - McIntosh, Megaludis, Gulibon, Retherford, Nolf, Nevills, and Nickal. Nevills is just a jr, but all others except Gulibon yielded outstanding results

Iowa's best in the last 5 years has been Cory Clark, who was not a top 10 guy (#23). He was beaten pretty handily by Gulibon at the end of HS. Sorenson was #27, and he's on track to be a high AA x4. So clearly development happens with the excellent coaching of Brands et all. But also clearly, top 10 or top 20 is where the money is.

Following Kemerer, Iowa got top 10's recently - Marinelli in 2016, and Lee and Warner in 2017.

Looking at 2018, Iowa has no one in top 20. Cassiopi is their top guy #23, then Brands at #73.

Meanwhile in 2018, PSU is (somehow) getting #4 Beard, #9 Teasdale, #13 RBY, and #20 J Lee. They also had, until just recently #2 Wittlake.

Looking ahead, Iowa needs more blue chip recruits.

 

[UWMilwaukhawk]

YoungGun is spot on.

In recent years, it's clear that top 10 p4p guys are much more likely to score lots of points for the team at ncaa over their careers than guys ranked 11-20, who in turn score more than the 21-30 decile, and so on.

The real cream of the crop - multi-time AA's and champs- Taylor, Ruth, Rethorford, Nolf, Imar, Cox, Dake, Snyder, Steiber, Varner, Metcalf - all came from the top 10.

Iowa has had a drought when it comes to top 10 recruits. None in a 4 year span 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Kemerer (#8) ended the drought when he arrived with the class of 2015. He's a star, and took 3rd as a RS Fr.

In that same 4 years, PSU pulled in 7 top 10 guys - McIntosh, Megaludis, Gulibon, Retherford, Nolf, Nevills, and Nickal. Nevills is just a jr, but all others except Gulibon yielded outstanding results

Iowa's best in the last 5 years has been Cory Clark, who was not a top 10 guy (#23). He was beaten pretty handily by Gulibon at the end of HS. Sorenson was #27, and he's on track to be a high AA x4. So clearly development happens with the excellent coaching of Brands et all. But also clearly, top 10 or top 20 is where the money is.

Following Kemerer, Iowa got top 10's recently - Marinelli in 2016, and Lee and Warner in 2017.

Looking at 2018, Iowa has no one in top 20. Cassiopi is their top guy #23, then Brands at #73.

Meanwhile in 2018, PSU is (somehow) getting #4 Beard, #9 Teasdale, #13 RBY, and #20 J Lee. They also had, until just recently #2 Wittlake.

Looking ahead, Iowa needs more blue chip recruits.

I'm just a lurker on the wrestling board, but just wanted to say this is a very insightful post and its greatly appreciated. I feel caught up on the recruiting stuff now.

Follow up question, how the hell is PSU raking in top 10 kids every year with limited money?

 

[MVPFAN]

I'm just a lurker on the wrestling board, but just wanted to say this is a very insightful post and its greatly appreciated. I feel caught up on the recruiting stuff now.

Follow up question, how the hell is PSU raking in top 10 kids every year with limited money?

A lot of rich uncles.

 

[JustWrestle133]

I'm just a lurker on the wrestling board, but just wanted to say this is a very insightful post and its greatly appreciated. I feel caught up on the recruiting stuff now.

Follow up question, how the hell is PSU raking in top 10 kids every year with limited money?

Better check again. Everyone keeps telling me how this Penn State recruiting class is the greatest in the history of College wrestling and I understand that it was at one point when they had 7 of the top 12 pound for pound guys committed, but things have changed. After the wave of guys dropping and guys switching their commitments.

Penn State doesn't have a single top 10 P4P guy in their class anymore.

Honestly, their class may not even end up ranked as the top class this season. Ohio State's looks better right now to some experts. Michigan's looks very close and by the end might pass them as well. ASU, Okie St. and now with Lee signing with Minnesota yesterday, even Minnesota could make an argument that they have a fairly close and some might even say a better recruiting class (Minnesota now has 3 p4p guys in Stevenson, Lee, and McGee. Plus two more top 100 guys).

Michigan has 3 p4p guys (Silva, Lewan, and Parris).

Ohio State have 2 top 10 p4p guys (Hoffman and Sasso) plus 4 guys in the top 35 (Jaden Mattox, Malik Heinselman, Rocky Jordan, and Quinn Kinner) and then 1 more top 100 guy that is weight class ranked (Keaton).

In all likelihood PSU's class will still end up being #1 overall, but really it isn't a complete blowout like it looked like a couple months ago, having Wittake flip to Okie St and then in State studs, thought to be interested in PSU at various points in Karoly, Sasso, and Hoffman committed to other programs. All of whom were p4p guys at one point. I realize PSU never had any of those three committed, but they were recruits that were in State and top 10 p4p guys are some point and linked to PSU to various degrees by recruiting pundits along the process. However, RBY, Teasdale, Beard, Lee, and Nevills are all still on board, although none of whom are in the top 10 p4p anymore.

Edit: I changed the words to attempt to be more clear as to what I was saying.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I'm just a lurker on the wrestling board, but just wanted to say this is a very insightful post and its greatly appreciated. I feel caught up on the recruiting stuff now.

Follow up question, how the hell is PSU raking in top 10 kids every year with limited money?

Excellent question, my friend. You’re not the only one puzzled by math that doesn’t add up. Jeff Sessions may be appointing a special counsel to get to the bottom of it. Stay tuned.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

A lot of rich uncles.

A brief review of the 2016 US Census shows 10 times the national average of rich uncles per capita in western PA. It’s just a crazy fluke of population distribution. Go figure.

 

[Jaybird319]

WWDM..remember population doesn’t matter in Pennsylvania wrestling. “Only” tradition and coaching matters in their state.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Excellent question, my friend. You’re not the only one puzzled by math that doesn’t add up. Jeff Sessions May be appointing a special counsel to get to the bottom of it. Stay tuned.

Insinuating that we may be somehow associated with politicians is below the belt sir. We are honest thieves.

 

[Pennstate1985]

In all likelihood PSU's class will still end up being #1 overall, but really it isn't a complete blowout like it looked like a couple months ago. Losing Karoly and Wittake, to p4p guys at one point, were obviously the big blows. However, RBY, Teasdale, Beard, and Nevills are all still on board, although none of whom are in the top 10 p4p anymore.

what?

 

[slushhead]

Great questions, and welcome to the board!

It takes great talent and development to win titles and the success that Iowa has had under Brands has been developing really good recruits into top performers. Examples of this would include Matt McDonough, Derek St. John, Thomas Gilman, Cory Clark, Brandon Sorenson etc.

In wrestling the top 10 guys are typically far and away better than recruits in the 30-100 range, and the previous philosophy was getting several of guys in the 50-100 range vs 1 guy in the 1-10 range.

The top recruit Brands got other than current guys was Brent Metcalf. The top "development" story was Daniel Dennis, who never won a state title, and went on to become an Olympian.

The current elite recruits on the team include Alex Marinelli, Michael Kemerer, Jacob Warner and Spencer Lee. These are the type of recruits that Penn State fills their entire roster with, and has led to their dominance.

To win NCAA titles, Iowa will need a lot of the elite recruits, paired with lower ranked guys that are coached up to be mid to high All Americans.

I like your post, with the exception that the following statement is an exaggeration:

"These are the type of recruits that Penn State fills their entire roster with, and has led to their dominance."

While I agree that loading up on elite recruits has led to PSU's dominance, the 'entire roster' is by no means filled with them. Currently, there is a glaring weakness at 125, and some are of the opinion that 133 and 141 are 'holes' in the lineup (discussed in another thread here yesterday). PSU does have a good guy waiting in the wings at 141, but overall, a team like tOSU has a more thoroughly stacked lineup. It's just that PSU would seem to have an edge in the number of guys who can rack up bonus points at Nationals. Historically, PSU's championship teams have always had a few weak weights, often times failing
to even qualify for Nationals.

Anyway, just a small point of clarification.

 

[pablow]

I never knew Penn State had it so tough - no top ten P4Ps in this year's recruiting class . Maybe a hole in the lineup. You guys need to petition the NCAA for some hardship scholarships - this so wrong. Maybe a gofundme page would help in the short run. T & Ps.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I never knew Penn State had it so tough - no top ten P4Ps in this year's recruiting class . Maybe a hole in the lineup. You guys need to petition the NCAA for some hardship scholarships - this so wrong. Maybe a gofundme page would help in the short run. T & Ps.

We finally get to see if Cael can coach these scrubs up.

 

[JustWrestle133]

what?

When Karoly decommitted from Northwestern everyone thought he was going to jump to PSU with Beard.

He was committed to Northwestern, along with Beard, Cassioppi, Jessen, and including Karoly that was a good class. Karoly surprised people, maybe just me, by not choosing PSU after decommitting.

And of the current PSU recruits, none of them are current top 10 p4p guys anymore. RBY, Teasdale, Beard, Lee and Nevills all were at some point during the recruiting process, but again as of yesterday, none of them are.

What part are you confused about?

 

[MVPFAN]

3 of the 4 lost at who's #1 so that is why they dropped a bit for now.

 

[JustWrestle133]

3 of the 4 lost at who's #1 so that is why they dropped a bit for now.

Actually all four of their recruits at WNO lost, when you add in Joe Lee. Although, I don't think that was really a fair matchup. I think Carr is significantly better than Lee, despite his one win over Carr. They are now 5-1 I believe.

I left Joe Lee off my original post. I added him. That's the only reason you missed him.

 

[Pennstate1985]

What part are you confused about?

I guess I was confused when we lost Karoly who we never had.

 

[JustWrestle133]

I guess I was confused when we lost Karoly who we never had.

I went to Northwestern. So, perhaps that skewed my thoughts, but I and other Northwestern people thought he was joining Beard, Teasdale, Verkleeren, and Manville by jumping on the PSU train after a decommitment.

 

[smalls103]

Karoly was never going to PSU.

New big board came out on flo today. Still 1 in the top 10 (Beard @ #8)

 

[rossel 33]

I never knew Penn State had it so tough - no top ten P4Ps in this year's recruiting class . Maybe a hole in the lineup. You guys need to petition the NCAA for some hardship scholarships - this so wrong. Maybe a gofundme page would help in the short run. T & Ps.

Indeed.

PSU has "only one" top 10 p4p, since losing Wittlake, and dropping Teasdale and RBY to the lowly #12 and 13 positions following WNO. With Joe Lee at #20, PSU has 4 guys in the top 20, more than any other school.

Clearly PSU is having a down year.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Rossel, you have been very careful to talk about only TOP 10 recruits as the ones that don't require development and can't miss despite a lot of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure a major reason is because Iowa has had a number of misses in the 11-30 range. Now I sense you are changing your tune and trying to include that group as can't miss also, well at least in the case of PSU. Iowa has had three number 1 classes in the past several years that looked similar to Penn State's current class as far as rankings.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Just Flo helping Cael to show how he can coach up guys like Teasdale,RBY and Beard/
Anyone in right mind know them guys are top ten maybe even top 5.

 

[B1S3K3SC]

BREAKING: Teams need to recruit the best wrestlers. Top 10 p4p wrestlers are better than 50-100 p4p wrestlers.

I can't believe I never thought of this before!

 

[funnyfletcher]

Karoly commited to UNC didn't he?

 

[TarpHawk]

BREAKING: Teams need to recruit the best wrestlers. Top 10 p4p wrestlers are better than 50-100 p4p wrestlers.

I can't believe I never thought of this before!

But we've got THREE 141-pounders ranked #25-50. If we wrestle all three at once they can beat anybody PSU puts out there.

 

[B1S3K3SC]

But we've got THREE 141-pounders ranked #25-50. If we wrestle all three at once they can beat anybody PSU puts out there.

HAHAHA

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Let me get this right. PSU had 3 guys in the top 10 p4p all who recently lost really close matches at a summer tournament against the most elite opponent at their weight class so now all of the sudden PSU doesn't have a top recruiting class?

And wittlake decommits who will most likely be filled in with Brooks in a year.

And slush is here arguing semantics....."PSU isn't a team with top 10 p4p guys at every weight" oh ok lol technically you're right. Just several more guys than every other team in college wrestling.

 

[pumpdog20]

Did Teasdale sign yet?

 

[rossel 33]

Rossel, you have been very careful to talk about only TOP 10 recruits as the ones that don't require development and can't miss despite a lot of evidence to the contrary. I'm sure a major reason is because Iowa has had a number of misses in the 11-30 range. Now I sense you are changing your tune and trying to include that group as can't miss also, well at least in the case of PSU. Iowa has had three number 1 classes in the past several years that looked similar to Penn State's current class as far as rankings.

That paragraph is loaded with garbage, even excessive for you FT.

"top 10 recruits don't require development" - never said that
top 10 recruits "can't miss" - never said that
"3 number 1 classes in past several years" for Iowa - provably false

Top 10 recruits do sometimes miss - think Daniel Craig of FL, #1 ranked HS wrestler in the country, but never reached AA status. I've never said they don't require development and can't miss, you're simply making up stuff.

Top 10 p4p recruits tend to outperform the 11-20 group and those lower. So in going after top 10 guys, you just increase the likelihood of success but with no guarantees. That is my opinion, and shared by most everyone.

In the past 7 years, Iowa has had only 1 top rated class of recruits, according to FLO, in 2012. That class included no one in the top 10. The highest recruit was Skonieczny, who as you must know, dropped out before wrestling a match. Kind of a paper tiger #1 recruit class to anyone with an ounce of common sense.

In 2016, PSU pulled in #1,#2 and #5 recruits. That's 3 in the top 5.
Iowa has never had a year like that under Brands.

2017, Iowa's best year for Brands recruiting, pulled in #2, #7, and #44
2017 saw PSU get #4, #6, and #20, arguably on a par with Iowa for the year.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Let me get this right. PSU had 3 guys in the top 10 p4p all who recently lost really close matches at a summer tournament against the most elite opponent at their weight class so now all of the sudden PSU doesn't have a top recruiting class?

And wittlake decommits who will most likely be filled in with Brooks in a year.

And slush is here arguing semantics....."PSU isn't a team with top 10 p4p guys at every weight" oh ok lol technically you're right. Just several more guys than every other team in college wrestling.

I'm just trying to figure out who you're debating. . . because from where I sit, it looks like you're just talking to yourself.

 

[purescurve]

I'm just trying to figure out who you're debating. . . because from where I sit, it looks like you're just talking to yourself.

It's not a good look, is it?

 

[dunkej01]

I'm just trying to figure out who you're debating. . . because from where I sit, it looks like you're just talking to yourself.

habit forming

 

[slushhead]

Let me get this right. PSU had 3 guys in the top 10 p4p all who recently lost really close matches at a summer tournament against the most elite opponent at their weight class so now all of the sudden PSU doesn't have a top recruiting class?

And wittlake decommits who will most likely be filled in with Brooks in a year.

And slush is here arguing semantics....."PSU isn't a team with top 10 p4p guys at every weight" oh ok lol technically you're right. Just several more guys than every other team in college wrestling.

You seem to be getting emotional again. Go get yourself some top 10 p4p guys or eat a Snickers. Either way, just please stop bitching.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

You seem to be getting emotional again. Go get yourself some top 10 p4p guys or eat a Snickers. Either way, just please stop bitching.

Ofc you perceived my response as emotional and bitching lol

Is anything I said untrue?

If you take issue with my post give a rebuttal to the content. You have a personal issue with me and choose to insult me every time I post rather than respond or refute the content of my post.

 

[Gusaford]

You seem to be getting emotional again. Go get yourself some top 10 p4p guys or eat a Snickers. Either way, just please stop bitching.

Methinks you were engaged in just a wee bit of false modesty in bemoaning the holes in PSU's lineup and opining on how much more "stacked" tOSU is than PSU -- a team that is returning, ahem, five national champs, and has guys like Verkleeren and Manville destined to sit on the bench their entire careers (someone check their SAT scores b/c I am not seeing a lot of logic in their decisions), and Vodka, bless his soul, appropriately called "bullsh!t" on your post.