Rescoring Old Championships…

[Bhabbaganoosh]

I did a quick rundown of the 1983, 1986, 1991 and the 1997 team scoring.

If you restored the 1997 Championships using the new scoring criteria and with the additional points for takedowns and near all, the 1997 Iowa team would have an additional 5 points from placement changes.

In 1997 Kasey Gillis placed 6th and Mike Uker placed 5th.
In 1997, 5th place was worth 5 points and 6th place was worth 3 points.
Under the current scoring rubric, 5th place is now worth 7 points and 6th place is worth 6 points. That is an additional 5 placement points.

If you look at the matches of each bracket, it is easy to find where the increased values of both takedowns and meatballs would add at least an additional 6.5 points.

That would bring the 1997 team total up to 181.5 points.

Rough numbers look like
1983 - 165
1986 - 174.5
1991 - 172

 

[uncle jim 62]

Wow looks like 1997 Iowa team was the best ever. Quick rundown? Everyone should feel better knowing that Penn State doesn't have the record.

 

[Bhabbaganoosh]

For the record, I don’t think the 1997 team is in the top 3 best teams in Iowa history.

Calling any team the greatest ever is problematic at best.

Back in the old days, they only placed 4 so points were much lower. Then they only placed 6… Team scoring has changed through the years.

It’s also somewhat unfair to say Minnesota and Penn State are the only teams to have 10 AA’s when the great teams of OSU (back in the day) would have almost definitely would have had 10 AA’s had the placed out to 8.

Measuring teams within an era is reasonable but measuring across different eras is very difficult.

 

[Gobblin]

I did a quick rundown of the 1983, 1986, 1991 and the 1997 team scoring.

If you restored the 1997 Championships using the new scoring criteria and with the additional points for takedowns and near all, the 1997 Iowa team would have an additional 5 points from placement changes.

In 1997 Kasey Gillis placed 6th and Mike Uker placed 5th.
In 1997, 5th place was worth 5 points and 6th place was worth 3 points.
Under the current scoring rubric, 5th place is now worth 7 points and 6th place is worth 6 points. That is an additional 5 placement points.

If you look at the matches of each bracket, it is easy to find where the increased values of both takedowns and meatballs would add at least an additional 6.5 points.

That would bring the 1997 team total up to 181.5 points.

Rough numbers look like
1983 - 165
1986 - 174.5
1991 - 172

This is good stuff! Well done!

 

[AndEEss]

WrestleKnowNothing already did this. 1997 Iowa would be third now, under current scoring.

Penn State Scoring record question?

intermatwrestle.com

 

[CMMG Banshee]

Changing how matches are changes how the game is played . It’s why you can’t use those modern baseball dork stats to evaluate the past.

Because everyone was playing a certain way back then. As the games are looked at differently they will often change scoring methods. Football , basketball , nascar have all changed over the years.

And as scoring changes occur the teams adapt to the new changes .

 

[Iowawrestling03]

I think the best measurement of dominance is a team's share of overall points. Wont be a perfect system, but it's probably the fairest way to compare teams that were subjected to different rules and scoring.

 

[CMMG Banshee]

I think the best measurement of dominance is a team's share of overall points. Wont be a perfect system, but it's probably the fairest way to compare teams that were subjected to different rules and scoring.

Probably a good metric. Also gap between first and second, best average placing too. I don’t see how you compare a team of hammers from the 80s then 90s to now. Maybe give the newer guys a slight edge to to nutrition, training , and conditioning changes for the better.

So I’d be inclined to make the tie breaker the most recent, but I believe a sport like wrestling might cross time be very similar . Then we’d have to get into matchups which of course we wouldn’t have.

Give Iowa one of their best teams from the past for this year and they could easily defeat PSU or vice versa. It’s fun to think about though .

I group them all together in a similar category actually. Setting the points record is just a line in the record book, nothing more than that.

 

[Bhabbaganoosh]

WrestleKnowNothing already did this. 1997 Iowa would be third now, under current scoring.

Penn State Scoring record question?

intermatwrestle.com

That is only partially true, it explicitly says they are not taking into account the increased point values for takedowns and meatballs.

Obviously it is all up for debate, I would say the 1983 Iowa team was the best ever but that’s just my opinion.

Just because PSU scored 177 points with this current set of rules “by itself” make them the greatest ever.

 

[4theglory54]

It’s also somewhat unfair to say Minnesota and Penn State are the only teams to have 10 AA’s when the great teams of OSU (back in the day) would have almost definitely would have had 10 AA’s had the placed out to 8.

PSU's 10 AA's all placed 6th or higher. I'd be interested to know if any other team had 8 AA's finish 3rd or higher, but I'm not inclined to do the research.

 

[MilleGinja]

That is only partially true, it explicitly says they are not taking into account the increased point values for takedowns and meatballs.

Obviously it is all up for debate, I would say the 1983 Iowa team was the best ever but that’s just my opinion.

Just because PSU scored 177 points with this current set of rules “by itself” make them the greatest ever.

Autocorrect is just the best sometimes

 

[Bhabbaganoosh]

PSU's 10 AA's all placed 6th or higher. I'd be interested to know if any other team had 8 AA's finish 3rd or higher, but I'm not inclined to do the research.

Modern History anyway…
1991 Iowa
118 Chad Zaputil 2nd
126 Terry Brands 2nd
134 Tom Brands 1st
142 Troy Steiner 2nd
150 Terry Steiner 3rd
158 Tom Ryan 2nd
167 Mark Reiland 1st (RIP)
177 Bart Chelsvig 3rd
190 Travis Fiset 5th
6 in finals and 8 of 9 AA’s in top 3

 

[Bhabbaganoosh]

1937 Oklahoma State
Only 8 weight classes with only 3 AA’s per weight class back then and OSU had 7 of 8 place top 3. The other OSU wrestler placed 4th out of a 12 man bracket.
4 champs, 1 second, 2 thirds and a fourth.
This may be one of the greatest teams!

They scored 31 points to Oklahomas 13.
That would equate to this years runner up team scoring 74 points to PSU’s 177.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

WrestleKnowNothing already did this. 1997 Iowa would be third now, under current scoring.

Penn State Scoring record question?

intermatwrestle.com

Nah.

Iowa > Penn State #confirmed

 

[wrestleknownothing]

I did a quick rundown of the 1983, 1986, 1991 and the 1997 team scoring.

If you restored the 1997 Championships using the new scoring criteria and with the additional points for takedowns and near all, the 1997 Iowa team would have an additional 5 points from placement changes.

In 1997 Kasey Gillis placed 6th and Mike Uker placed 5th.
In 1997, 5th place was worth 5 points and 6th place was worth 3 points.
Under the current scoring rubric, 5th place is now worth 7 points and 6th place is worth 6 points. That is an additional 5 placement points.

If you look at the matches of each bracket, it is easy to find where the increased values of both takedowns and meatballs would add at least an additional 6.5 points.

That would bring the 1997 team total up to 181.5 points.

Rough numbers look like
1983 - 165
1986 - 174.5
1991 - 172

You also need to subtract for the bracket back then being scored as 64 instead of 32 plus pigtails. And if you are using the bracket on wrestlingstats, there are two errors affecting Iowa's score. There were two match terminations (1 bonus) that are listed as TF (1.5 bonus), so if you are doing this as a delta, you would add another point to Iowa's score.

The other problem is that if you are going to assume you can rescore matches from decisions to majors, or majors to TFs, then you need to recognize it is a two edged sword. Some of those pinfalls may have turned into TFs or MTs before the pinfall could occur, costing Iowa 0.5 to 1 per instance.

 

[wrestleknownothing]

I think the best measurement of dominance is a team's share of overall points. Wont be a perfect system, but it's probably the fairest way to compare teams that were subjected to different rules and scoring.

I have done that as a percentage of the highest possible score rather than all points, mostly because I didn't want to take the time to get all points every year. I will dig that up.

 

[wrestleknownothing]

1937 Oklahoma State
Only 8 weight classes with only 3 AA’s per weight class back then and OSU had 7 of 8 place top 3. The other OSU wrestler placed 4th out of a 12 man bracket.
4 champs, 1 second, 2 thirds and a fourth.
This may be one of the greatest teams!

They scored 31 points to Oklahomas 13.
That would equate to this years runner up team scoring 74 points to PSU’s 177.

1937 is a year when the average bracket had only 10 wrestlers. So 30% of wrestlers AAed vs 24% now. Those brackets from the 20's and 30's are pretty funny to look at. The brackets were so small back then that Oklahoma State had two wrestlers go 0-2 and take third place. Congrats, gentlemen, you are All-Americans.

 

[wrestleknownothing]

I think you guys should like this table a little better.