Research shows strong welfare state leads to entrepreneurship

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

LOL oh good for you, you pointed out THREE places........LOL LOL

Reading comprehension, you're really bad at it:

Originally posted by 22*43*51: How can anyone argue that the United States Welfare system is not the strongest welfare system the world has ever seen?

Originally posted by naturalmwa: Any country? You sure about that?

LOL LOL three places.....ya you are right Natural..........don't take yourself so seriously man..........it doesn't feel good

 

[torbee]

Originally posted by rocketclone:
I have no problem with a safety net, no problem at all. However, when you start to make a living off that safety net, that is where I have problems. The idea is great and is started with all good intentions, but guess what happens, people use and abuse it.

A lot of things the government does is with great intentions, and I will give them that, but it usually backfires.

Let's look at Hormel Foods. Great job, good pay, very good benefits. They have people starting there and they last TWO days and then quit. They would rather work the system then work there because it is hard work. Hormel now bringing in people from other countries to work. Why, because people won't work and rely on the handouts. They are happy with the handouts and have their days free.

Lets look at a trip to Caseys, someone with an EBT card buy 5 Mountain Dews and 10 candy bars, really??

If it was truly a social safety net, I would agree with you 100 percent. But it has turned into people using it as their career, well that is where we disagree.

I wish there was a way to fix it but some just refuse to engage and simply don't want to work. Figure out a way to weed them out and the ones who are just having hard luck between jobs and I will totally agree with you.

First of all, I appreciate you engaging in a civil and interesting debate on this without resorting to the usual partisan bickering. Refreshing on HROT!

I do get what you're saying - and like you, I also abhor people who abuse the system and are inherently lazy.

But I do think you are again throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The percentage of people who abuse the system is quite small. In fact, statistics show that the vast, vast majority of users of federal programs are on them for a short period of time (typically less than one calendar year).

And now these further studies indicate that having that backup safety net may actually be a net-benefit on boosting entrepreneurship.

So what's the sense of fixating on the (relatively few) lazy bums who take advantage when the benefit - from a societal perspective - seems to outweigh the cons?

 

[BrentJDiekman]

Originally posted by swagsurfer02:
We should all be on welfare!
Posted from Rivals Mobile

I know you say that in jest, but that is the coming reality. Robotics, self serve, all of stuff like that ARE going to reduce the need for human labor. The question should be, isn't this what we strived for? If you don't want to work you don't have to? There is a problem in this country with work for works sake.

Read up on universal income.

 

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by torbee:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

I have no problem with a safety net, no problem at all. However, when you start to make a living off that safety net, that is where I have problems. The idea is great and is started with all good intentions, but guess what happens, people use and abuse it.

A lot of things the government does is with great intentions, and I will give them that, but it usually backfires.

Let's look at Hormel Foods. Great job, good pay, very good benefits. They have people starting there and they last TWO days and then quit. They would rather work the system then work there because it is hard work. Hormel now bringing in people from other countries to work. Why, because people won't work and rely on the handouts. They are happy with the handouts and have their days free.

Lets look at a trip to Caseys, someone with an EBT card buy 5 Mountain Dews and 10 candy bars, really??

If it was truly a social safety net, I would agree with you 100 percent. But it has turned into people using it as their career, well that is where we disagree.

I wish there was a way to fix it but some just refuse to engage and simply don't want to work. Figure out a way to weed them out and the ones who are just having hard luck between jobs and I will totally agree with you.

First of all, I appreciate you engaging in a civil and interesting debate on this without resorting to the usual partisan bickering. Refreshing on HROT!

I do get what you're saying - and like you, I also abhor people who abuse the system and are inherently lazy.

But I do think you are again throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The percentage of people who abuse the system is quite small. In fact, statistics show that the vast, vast majority of users of federal programs are on them for a short period of time (typically less than one calendar year).

And now these further studies indicate that having that backup safety net may actually be a net-benefit on boosting entrepreneurship.

So what's the sense of fixating on the (relatively few) lazy bums who take advantage when the benefit - from a societal perspective - seems to outweigh the cons?

I think there are a lot bigger things at play here. I think it involves families and how things are handled at home. A person needs to figure out how to get out of the vicious circles and that is not easy to do.

I don't know what the percentages are of people who abuse the system, but we still need to make it so the person is not better off under the system than they are working.

One simple change, that no one seems to want to make is EBT cards. You use them for food......good food not pop and candy bars. Make it like the wic program.

There are simple changes that could be made, but no one seems to be interested in changing them.

 

[torbee]

Originally posted by rocketclone:
I think there are a lot bigger things at play here. I think it involves families and how things are handled at home. A person needs to figure out how to get out of the vicious circles and that is not easy to do.

I don't know what the percentages are of people who abuse the system, but we still need to make it so the person is not better off under the system than they are working.

One simple change, that no one seems to want to make is EBT cards. You use them for food......good food not pop and candy bars. Make it like the wic program.

There are simple changes that could be made, but no one seems to be interested in changing them.

Your last statement isn't true at all.

In fact, the very program you are talking about - EBT cards - has been the focus of a lot of experimenting lately, specifically to do exactly what you're saying:

Recently, there has been a push to get farmers' markets to accept SNAP benefits. The policy has seen an enthusiastic response, with the total value of SNAP redemptions at farmers' markets and food stands reaching $16.6 million in 2012-a 500% increase from 2008. Today, there are more than 3,200 farmers' markets and stands accepting EBT cards across the country. EBT in Farmer's Markets: Report to Congress

 

[Lone Clone]

Originally posted by pablow:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.

I think Nancy Pelosi first verbalized this. Or was it Kathleen Sebelius? I can't remember.

It might work out for a few, but it's not a sound economic growth policy. It all sounds like a "follow your bliss" aging baby-boomer nightmare. Like the Albert Brooks movie Lost in America.

It was Pelosi. Her point was that if people didn't have to worry about earning money to pay for food, shelter, health care, education and so forth, they would have time to do the things they wanted to do, like paint and write poetry.

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by Lone Clone:

Originally posted by pablow:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.

I think Nancy Pelosi first verbalized this. Or was it Kathleen Sebelius? I can't remember.

It might work out for a few, but it's not a sound economic growth policy. It all sounds like a "follow your bliss" aging baby-boomer nightmare. Like the Albert Brooks movie Lost in America.

It was Pelosi. Her point was that if people didn't have to worry about earning money to pay for food, shelter, health care, education and so forth, they would have time to do the things they wanted to do, like paint and write poetry.

And now apparently that point is backed up in a study. If you don't have to worry about the immediate necessities, you can make money building your dreams and following your passions like writing. I think you used to do that right LC?

 

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by torbee:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

I think there are a lot bigger things at play here. I think it involves families and how things are handled at home. A person needs to figure out how to get out of the vicious circles and that is not easy to do.

I don't know what the percentages are of people who abuse the system, but we still need to make it so the person is not better off under the system than they are working.

One simple change, that no one seems to want to make is EBT cards. You use them for food......good food not pop and candy bars. Make it like the wic program.

There are simple changes that could be made, but no one seems to be interested in changing them.

Your last statement isn't true at all.

In fact, the very program you are talking about - EBT cards - has been the focus of a lot of experimenting lately, specifically to do exactly what you're saying:

Recently, there has been a push to get farmers' markets to accept SNAP benefits. The policy has seen an enthusiastic response, with the total value of SNAP redemptions at farmers' markets and food stands reaching $16.6 million in 2012-a 500% increase from 2008. Today, there are more than 3,200 farmers' markets and stands accepting EBT cards across the country. EBT in Farmer's Markets: Report to Congress

They are looking at it. And I can appreciate that. However, they still need to address the junk food that can be purchased. I would like to see them go to certificates like Wic has. From what I understand wic says this is what you get and that is it.

 

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by Lone Clone:

Originally posted by pablow:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
This I think is an often under appreciated benefit of Obamacare. It frees entrepreneurs from the jobs they held simply for the benefits. Now they are free to strike out on their own with comparable healthcare. A safety net is very essential to the American Dream.

I think Nancy Pelosi first verbalized this. Or was it Kathleen Sebelius? I can't remember.

It might work out for a few, but it's not a sound economic growth policy. It all sounds like a "follow your bliss" aging baby-boomer nightmare. Like the Albert Brooks movie Lost in America.

It was Pelosi. Her point was that if people didn't have to worry about earning money to pay for food, shelter, health care, education and so forth, they would have time to do the things they wanted to do, like paint and write poetry.

And now apparently that point is backed up in a study. If you don't have to worry about the immediate necessities, you can make money building your dreams and following your passions like writing. I think you used to do that right LC?

I think LC had a JOB, he worked for someone else. You can learn these and work through these and it is called COLLEGE.

So you want us to pay for someones dream, even though from a percentage standpoint the chances are it will never happen.

If a person works 8 hours a day they still have another 8 hours to pursue their "dreams"

 

[txhawk I]

Just remember....

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

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by rocketclone:

I think LC had a JOB, he worked for someone else. You can learn these and work through these and it is called COLLEGE.

So you want us to pay for someones dream, even though from a percentage standpoint the chances are it will never happen.

If a person works 8 hours a day they still have another 8 hours to pursue their "dreams"

You're rather persistent with your bad reading comprehension, I wonder what you think this post says.

The study clearly pointed out you are not being asked to pay for their dreams, you just make that point up out of thin air. What you are doing is paying for an insurance policy that most never use which indicates that they are either doing just as you say or they are successful enough to avoid needing the safety net.

I'm rather enjoying the division of ground in this debate. I get to champion business and America's entrepreneurial spirit while you get to experience life as an elitist, ivory tower labor leader. This is fun.

 

[dibohawk7]

Have not read thread, I will just say government programs have zero to do with me starting my business, my brother starting his, my dad that started his, or any of the other of dozens of successful businessmen I have met. It was an individual entrepreneurial spirit each person possessed or was instilled in them through their parents, individual motivation or higher learning. Each person knew the risks and rewards when getting into business and dove in head first anyway. Thinking that food stamps would actually make a difference in someone wanting to start a business is absolutely laughable. From what i/we have experienced, government assistance is nothing but trouble. I also refuse to accept section 8 (gov housing money) tenants in any of the apartments I own because the quality of people I get that pay for their rent with their own hard work is far far far far and away superior to the quality of people who apply to live in my apartments with section 8 (gov welfare) . They destroy the apartments because they have nothing personally vested in it. Someone else's apartment, someone else's money, they don't care and trash the place. I know people who are on food stamps who have the opportunity to work more but refuse to because then they would lose their food stamps. I know of couples who rotate minimum wage jobs to stay on food stamps because if they both had jobs they would lose it. Seeing people dependent and cheating the system to be leeches on the system makes me stand against any of those programs. Idk... I read through that article and just had to chuckle that any entrepreneur would read that and think any of those welfare programs would have made a difference in their decision to start a business... Just lol
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[dibohawk7]

I just fail to see the benefit of a program that could help a few but for the large part is absolutely abused and excessive. I think welfare programs can help those who truly need it but I believe is faaaaar too easy to access. Some changes need to be made such as people who are on food stamps can only shop at approved grocery stores that carry only the basic requirements to live or something along those lines.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Lone Clone]

Originally posted by torbee:
This is going to be awkward for some:
========================
This would only be awkward for anyone who actually believed that people base their decision on whether to start a company on the availability of food stamps -- if any such person exists, which I doubt.

 

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

I think LC had a JOB, he worked for someone else. You can learn these and work through these and it is called COLLEGE.

So you want us to pay for someones dream, even though from a percentage standpoint the chances are it will never happen.

If a person works 8 hours a day they still have another 8 hours to pursue their "dreams"

You're rather persistent with your bad reading comprehension, I wonder what you think this post says.

The study clearly pointed out you are not being asked to pay for their dreams, you just make that point up out of thin air. What you are doing is paying for an insurance policy that most never use which indicates that they are either doing just as you say or they are successful enough to avoid needing the safety net.

I'm rather enjoying the division of ground in this debate. I get to champion business and America's entrepreneurial spirit while you get to experience life as an elitist, ivory tower labor leader. This is fun.

In all reality it is pretty simple. You start with the premise that the government needs to be involved and you didn't build that and I start with the premise that entrepreneurs are usually self made and don't look to the government for help.

You also think the government is the answer to all of our problems and should be involved in all sorts of peoples lives and I don't want that much government involvement.

And you are delirious in your thoughts about the ivory tower. I worked my but off to get where I am at and I utilized the government to help me with my education, which I have said is the one of the best programs because of the ROI.

So don't give me the government needs to pay for other peoples stuff in order for them to be successful because I ain't buying it. It is up to the individual, not the government, on how successful they want to be.

And for you information I started with ZIP ZERO NADDA and got out of the vicious circle. I did that, not the government. They helped me with grants but I am the one who went to class and got the grades, not the government. I have paid them back in just one year with the 40 to 50,000 I pay in taxes.

It can be done and without government paying for my food or health insurance.

 

[torbee]

Originally posted by dibohawk7:
I just fail to see the benefit of a program that could help a few but for the large part is absolutely abused and excessive. I think welfare programs can help those who truly need it but I believe is faaaaar too easy to access. Some changes need to be made such as people who are on food stamps can only shop at approved grocery stores that carry only the basic requirements to live or something along those lines.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Actually, it's just the opposite.

As noted, there is a small percentage of people that abuse the system and take advantage. And an even smaller percentage that are part of "generational poverty" - that is, multiple generations existing on subsidies.

But again, the vast majority of people accessing federal assistance are on it for a relatively short amount of time.

According to federal statistics - 20 percent are on welfare for less than 7 months, with an additional 50 percent on for less than two years. Only 19 percent are on 5 years or longer.

According to that same database, the average length of time on foodstamps is 8 to 10 month, with the average amount per-household at $135 per month.

This notion that there is a generation living high-on-the hog of assistance is pure bullshit political fantasy designed to rile people up.

 

[aflachawk]

Originally posted by OtayLake Hawkeye:
To paraphrase, facts & research be damned is the conservative mantra.

Research used to show no correlation between smoking and lung cancer also
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by rocketclone:

In all reality it is pretty simple. You start with the premise that the government needs to be involved and you didn't build that and I start with the premise that entrepreneurs are usually self made and don't look to the government for help.

You also think the government is the answer to all of our problems and should be involved in all sorts of peoples lives and I don't want that much government involvement.

And you are delirious in your thoughts about the ivory tower. I worked my but off to get where I am at and I utilized the government to help me with my education, which I have said is the one of the best programs because of the ROI.

So don't give me the government needs to pay for other peoples stuff in order for them to be successful because I ain't buying it. It is up to the individual, not the government, on how successful they want to be.

And for you information I started with ZIP ZERO NADDA and got out of the vicious circle. I did that, not the government. They helped me with grants but I am the one who went to class and got the grades, not the government. I have paid them back in just one year with the 40 to 50,000 I pay in taxes.

It can be done and without government paying for my food or health insurance.

I realize what you think you believe, which apparently isn't what you actually did. I also realize you have yet to comprehend the point of the article which was to point out that what you think is correct, does not comport to the real facts on the ground.

This last little nugget is priceless as it exactly sums up the point. You didn't build that on your own, we all helped you. The government invested in your future and helped make you a success. The study says when you do more of that type of activity, you get more success. The fun part is the article isn't even talking about directly providing benefits like you received, but simply making them an option like a guaranteed loan or catastrophic insurance against failure rather than a grant of up front actual cash. Even Strumm must to admit, this calls for the mirror metaphor.

 

[pablow]

Originally posted by torbee:

Originally posted by dibohawk7:
I just fail to see the benefit of a program that could help a few but for the large part is absolutely abused and excessive. I think welfare programs can help those who truly need it but I believe is faaaaar too easy to access. Some changes need to be made such as people who are on food stamps can only shop at approved grocery stores that carry only the basic requirements to live or something along those lines.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Actually, it's just the opposite.

As noted, there is a small percentage of people that abuse the system and take advantage. And an even smaller percentage that are part of "generational poverty" - that is, multiple generations existing on subsidies.

But again, the vast majority of people accessing federal assistance are on it for a relatively short amount of time.

According to federal statistics - 20 percent are on welfare for less than 7 months, with an additional 50 percent on for less than two years. Only 19 percent are on 5 years or longer.

According to that same database, the average length of time on foodstamps is 8 to 10 month, with the average amount per-household at $135 per month.

This notion that there is a generation living high-on-the hog of assistance is pure bullshit political fantasy designed to rile people up.

Those stats are confusing. That 19% figure for 5 years or more on "welfare" comes from a chart labeled "Average Time on AFCD (Aid to Families With Dependent Children). But AFCD was ended in 1996 under Clinton's welfare reform. I'm guessing these AFCD numbers quoted in your link article are not up to date. At any rate the data there is confusing to me.

 

[torbee]

Originally posted by pablow:
Those stats are confusing. That 19% figure for 5 years or more on "welfare" comes from a chart labeled "Average Time on AFCD (Aid to Families With Dependent Children). But AFCD was ended in 1996 under Clinton's welfare reform. I'm guessing these AFCD numbers quoted in your link article are not up to date. At any rate the data there is confusing to me.

Did you click on the link? The first thing noted is this:

Research Date: January 14th, 2015Welfare is the organized public or private social services for the assistance of disadvantaged groups. Aid could include general Welfare payments, health care through Medicaid, food stamps, special payments for pregnant women and young mothers, and federal and state housing benefits. The Welfare system in the United States began in the 1930s, during the Great Depression. Opponents of Welfare argue that it affects work incentives.


This post was edited on 3/27 3:03 PM by torbee

 

[rocketclone]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

In all reality it is pretty simple. You start with the premise that the government needs to be involved and you didn't build that and I start with the premise that entrepreneurs are usually self made and don't look to the government for help.

You also think the government is the answer to all of our problems and should be involved in all sorts of peoples lives and I don't want that much government involvement.

And you are delirious in your thoughts about the ivory tower. I worked my but off to get where I am at and I utilized the government to help me with my education, which I have said is the one of the best programs because of the ROI.

So don't give me the government needs to pay for other peoples stuff in order for them to be successful because I ain't buying it. It is up to the individual, not the government, on how successful they want to be.

And for you information I started with ZIP ZERO NADDA and got out of the vicious circle. I did that, not the government. They helped me with grants but I am the one who went to class and got the grades, not the government. I have paid them back in just one year with the 40 to 50,000 I pay in taxes.

It can be done and without government paying for my food or health insurance.

I realize what you think you believe, which apparently isn't what you actually did. I also realize you have yet to comprehend the point of the article which was to point out that what you think is correct, does not comport to the real facts on the ground.

This last little nugget is priceless as it exactly sums up the point. You didn't build that on your own, we all helped you. The government invested in your future and helped make you a success. The study says when you do more of that type of activity, you get more success. The fun part is the article isn't even talking about directly providing benefits like you received, but simply making them an option like a guaranteed loan or catastrophic insurance against failure rather than a grant of up front actual cash. Even Strumm must to admit, this calls for the mirror metaphor.

And if you will go back and look I said grants for school. So the government gives me a grant and I don't go to class I still get a good grade because the government took the class??

Answer that for me please.

My ROI has been pretty good so what is the ROI if only 5 percent succeed? Not very good. That is why if you flunk out you don't get anymore grant money.

According to your thoughts the government went and took the class.

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by rocketclone:

Originally posted by naturalmwa:

Originally posted by rocketclone:

In all reality it is pretty simple. You start with the premise that the government needs to be involved and you didn't build that and I start with the premise that entrepreneurs are usually self made and don't look to the government for help.

You also think the government is the answer to all of our problems and should be involved in all sorts of peoples lives and I don't want that much government involvement.

And you are delirious in your thoughts about the ivory tower. I worked my but off to get where I am at and I utilized the government to help me with my education, which I have said is the one of the best programs because of the ROI.

So don't give me the government needs to pay for other peoples stuff in order for them to be successful because I ain't buying it. It is up to the individual, not the government, on how successful they want to be.

And for you information I started with ZIP ZERO NADDA and got out of the vicious circle. I did that, not the government. They helped me with grants but I am the one who went to class and got the grades, not the government. I have paid them back in just one year with the 40 to 50,000 I pay in taxes.

It can be done and without government paying for my food or health insurance.

I realize what you think you believe, which apparently isn't what you actually did. I also realize you have yet to comprehend the point of the article which was to point out that what you think is correct, does not comport to the real facts on the ground.

This last little nugget is priceless as it exactly sums up the point. You didn't build that on your own, we all helped you. The government invested in your future and helped make you a success. The study says when you do more of that type of activity, you get more success. The fun part is the article isn't even talking about directly providing benefits like you received, but simply making them an option like a guaranteed loan or catastrophic insurance against failure rather than a grant of up front actual cash. Even Strumm must to admit, this calls for the mirror metaphor.

And if you will go back and look I said grants for school. So the government gives me a grant and I don't go to class I still get a good grade because the government took the class??

Answer that for me please.

My ROI has been pretty good so what is the ROI if only 5 percent succeed? Not very good. That is why if you flunk out you don't get anymore grant money.

According to your thoughts the government went and took the class.

What grade did you get in English class because your lack of reading comprehension continues to astonish. If I was a con, I'd demand a refund for that part of the grant. This article isn't even advocating grants or up front payments of any kind, its more like advocating loan guarantees where the student must first take out the money on their own, but if they fail to find a job after graduation, then the government will step in. You keep missing the point that the article says most do succeed to at least the degree that they never need the guarantee. So for most people impacted, you get all the societal entrepreneurial benefits with zero outlay. Its the simple act of providing the guarantee that produces the entrepreneurial up-tic. The government isn't actually providing many of them with any actual goods or services and those that do get help are only getting it after first trying to succeed on their own.

In any case, I'm glad your a success in whatever you do. You stand as a shining example of liberal government social policy producing just the sort of positive impact we all hope it will have. But in all too typical fashion, now that you got yours you begrudge those who would try to get theirs, even when they ask for far less of a hand out then you received.

 

[pablow]

Originally posted by torbee:

Originally posted by pablow:
Those stats are confusing. That 19% figure for 5 years or more on "welfare" comes from a chart labeled "Average Time on AFCD (Aid to Families With Dependent Children). But AFCD was ended in 1996 under Clinton's welfare reform. I'm guessing these AFCD numbers quoted in your link article are not up to date. At any rate the data there is confusing to me.

Did you click on the link? The first thing noted is this:

Research Date: January 14th, 2015Welfare is the organized public or private social services for the assistance of disadvantaged groups. Aid could include general Welfare payments, health care through Medicaid, food stamps, special payments for pregnant women and young mothers, and federal and state housing benefits. The Welfare system in the United States began in the 1930s, during the Great Depression. Opponents of Welfare argue that it affects work incentives.


This post was edited on 3/27 3:03 PM by torbee

Yes I read the linked article and saw the research date. I also did some looking around and found the most recent relevant data was released was by the Census Bureau in July of 2014.


Once again the referrence to Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) is suspicious to me because that program was terminated in 1996 and replaced with Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). Since the link you posted is derivative and does not site or link to government data, I'm not going to bet the farm on its accurracy, particulary because the terminology used suggests screams: "lazy cut and paste project."

Your linked survey also states 4.1% of Americans are on welfare (it excludes means tested government aid such as food stamps to arrive at this figure?????). That's absolutely incorrect. Every source I've looked at, on the left or right, has it between 25% -35%.