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Rule change considerations

artradley

artradley

HB Legend
Apr 26, 2013
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My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one countEliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.Push-out, but not from a scramble situationAllow MMA-type gear instead of singletsHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams.First takedown in the first period is worth three pointsFalls are worth 7 pointsMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back pointsWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso

What say you?

I'm a "yes" on 1,2,4,5,8,9,11
 
1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - Sure.

Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. - Only if #1 passes.

Push-out, but not from a scramble situation - Absolutely!!!

Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - Does the entire team still need to match? Never have understood why this is a big deal to some people.

Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - Hawks in gold singlets? Pass.

First takedown in the first period is worth three points - Seems arbitrary to award 3 pts versus 2 pts elsewhere. Get the push-out rule implemented and action problems would be solved.

Falls are worth 7 points - Sure. 70-0 next IC Duals! (Do forfeits move to 7 as well? I don't want to see teams forfeiting to "save" the point against a good wrestler.)

Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - No. Other rule changes are going to increase scoring.

Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - No. Same as above.

Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - I'm okay with this.

When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - I was confused on this at first. I think they are wanting to end the position where the attacker shoots, ends up on his knees with the opponent's legs in the air and his head on the mat behind him, arms clamped around the body. I would say no, but could be persuaded to change my mind.
This post was edited on 2/24 9:56 AM by LBlindHawk
 
Originally posted by artradley:
My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - No, then the issue becomes how fast a ref starts to countEliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. - maybe 2pts for 3-4 seconds, 3pts for 5 secondsPush-out, but not from a scramble situation - Please define push-out with zero gray area.Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - noHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - noFirst takedown in the first period is worth three points - I'm OK with thisFalls are worth 7 points - NoMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - NoTech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - NoRiding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - Yes; or, after 2 min of RT with no backs, stalling, 2:30, stalling again and 1 pt, etcWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - NO

What say you?

I'm a "yes" on 1,2,4,5,8,9,11
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by LBlindHawk:





1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - Sure.

Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. - Only if #1 passes.

Push-out, but not from a scramble situation - Absolutely!!!

Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - Does the entire team still need to match? Never have understood why this is a big deal to some people.

Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - Hawks in gold singlets? Pass.

First takedown in the first period is worth three points - Seems arbitrary to award 3 pts versus 2 pts elsewhere. Get the push-out rule implemented and action problems would be solved.

Falls are worth 7 points - Sure. 70-0 next IC Duals! (Do forfeits move to 7 as well? I don't want to see teams forfeiting to "save" the point against a good wrestler.)

Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - No. Other rule changes are going to increase scoring.

Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - No. Same as above.

Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - I'm okay with this.

When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - I was confused on this at first. I think they are wanting to end the position where the attacker shoots, ends up on his knees with the opponent's legs in the air and his head on the mat behind him, arms clamped around the body. I would say no, but could be persuaded to change my mind.
This post was edited on 2/24 9:56 AM by LBlindHawk
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Regarding forfeits: another suggestion out there was to make a forfeit 8 points; to encourage teams to send somebody out.
 
Originally posted by clhawks00:
3 and 10 are the only definites in my book. 11 needs further clarification.
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Exact wording:


"In the neutral position it should be illegal for the defensive wrestler to defend a take-down attempt by the offensive wrestler by clasping both hands together around the torso of the offensive wrestler."

Which does bring up a couple of questions. Is it a one-point technical violation and it's blown dead at that point? Or can wrestling continue and if the attacker completes the takedown they get three points (2 for the td and 1 for the penalty)?

Personally, I would like some flavor of this rule. To me, defensive moves that are designed to create a stalemate create boring matches.
 
Originally posted by artradley:
My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count Seems like it could be controversial, 1 count doesn't seem like enough time to be rewarded for controlling your opponent while exposing the back.Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. No, not for me.Push-out, but not from a scramble situation YesAllow MMA-type gear instead of singlets NoHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. I think I'd be devastated if Iowa had to change their singlets, even for away meets
sick.r191677.gif
First takedown in the first period is worth three points NoFalls are worth 7 points indifferentMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8 indifferentTech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 indifferentRiding time is only awarded if you have scored back points This is very interesting to me. I'll say YesWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso indifferent

What say you?

I'm a "yes" on 1,2,4,5,8,9,11
Click to expand...
I think I'm generally old school and don't want to change the sport too much, but I also think the pace needs to be picked up and stalling rules adjusted, much like everyone else on this forum.

No comments on the team scoring from me though.
 
1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - YES, HELPS WRESTLERS FOR FREESTYLEEliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. - YESPush-out, but not from a scramble situation - KIND OF, BUT THE REFS WILL JUST SAY EVERYTHING IS A SCRAMBLE. TAKE IT OUT OF THE REFS HANDSAllow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - YESHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - NO, THE HAWKS NEED TO BE IN BLACKFirst takedown in the first period is worth three points - YES, IT WILL ENCOURAGE ACTIONFalls are worth 7 points - YES, MORE FALLS THE BETTERMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - YES, THIS WILL INCREASE SCORINGTech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - YES, THIS WILL ALSO INCREASE SCORINGRiding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - ABSOLUTELYWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - ABSOLUTELY NOT, IT WILL HURT FOR FREESTYLE
Click to expand...
 
1. I could go with this as long as they are clear on what exposure criteria are, I'd want a full second count of one onethousand, no hand to hand roll theough quick stuff. I'd maybe like 2 count for two and 3 for 3 better with nothing for 1 still. Move the 3 up a couple counts.
2. Sure
3. Sure
4. Whatever although I like the singlets better.
5. No
6. Could go for this, i think people would get after it to get that extra point.
7. Sure
8. No, If you do all the stuff before this scoring will be way up and this would be too easy to get.
9. Even bigger no than 8 as you don't want cheap/easy match endings, needs to stay at 15.
10. They should do this even if they do none of the others.
11. Why not, this is a stall tactic to get a stalemate.
 
1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count No
Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. No
Push-out, but not from a scramble situation Yes, but include scrambles. You go out, other guy gets a point
Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets Yes
Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. No. Fans now who there freaking teams are.
First takedown in the first period is worth three points No
Falls are worth 7 points No
Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 No
Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 No
Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points No, but I've always advocated only accruing RT after a scoring move.
When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso Iffy on this. Takes away a lot of defensive scrambling.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 1 point escape, or keeping it and making takedowns worth more.
 
1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - YESEliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.- Only if 1 is passedPush-out, but not from a scramble situation - YESAllow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - NO, where a singlet you sissyHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - NO, If you don't know the difference between IA and PSU, that's on you.First takedown in the first period is worth three points - NOFalls are worth 7 points - Sure, as long as forfeits are worth 8+Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - no, fewer points is not the way to go!Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - see aboveRiding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - YESWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - NO
 
Originally posted by clhawks00:
3 and 10 are the only definites in my book. 11 needs further clarification.
Click to expand...
My exact thoughts. If there can be only one, make it be the push out.

I'd prefer to get rid of riding time, but wouldn't put up a fuss if it was only awarded if back points were earned. I would think getting rid of riding time would get rid of some clock issues which seemed to be a bit of a problem at the national duals.

#5 is dumb. I almost felt like they already had 9 on the list and someone said "Quick, think of another one. It has to be a top 10 list".

I also don't want this sport fiddled with too much. My least favorite thing about it though is the diving under for the ankles and hanging on for a stalemate. Whatever rule that gets rid of that has my vote.
 
No to 1 and 8 & 9 all as a group, Not sure about the quick tilts.

Also I don't mind the 3 points for 1st takedown.
This post was edited on 2/24 11:53 AM by buf87
 
Originally posted by buf87:
No to 1 and 8 & 9 all as a group,  Not sure about the quick tilts.

Also I don't mind the 3 points for 1st takedown. 
This post was edited on 2/24 11:53 AM by buf87
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My fear with the first TD being worth 3 is that guys would tighten up even more in fear of giving up that TD... Or if one guy comes out guns blazing and is clearly the aggressor only to give up some cheap TD to a defensive scrambler.

A takedown is a takedown, IMHO.

Eliminating riding time is an absolute must and the push out is close to it too... Again, IMHO.

They should replace #5 with... "Wrestlers start from neutral to begin each period".
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
I hate matches that guy gets takedown,(2-0), then escape, (2-1),then another takedown(4-1), then another escape, (4-2), then other guy gets takedown and now (4-4) and period ends.

Many escapes are without a lot of resistance and don't mean much as far as effort is concerned.
 
I like 1,3, and 11.

I like 2 if and only if 1 is implemented


Don't like 7 unless forfeits also count as 7 points (and even then I'm not a huge fan) - I would prefer seeing forfeits count for more points than falls, to encourage teams to send guys out rather than forfeit even if they are completely overmatched.

In regards to riding time, I think an interesting idea to consider would be that a wrestler can only accumulate riding time if they "earned" top position. So you get a takedown or a reversal, riding time starts. If you choose top or your opponent chooses down at the beginning of a period, you don't accumulate time then.
 
My only thing is with 8 and 9. I wouldn't want any rules that give a person more for doing less. Changing the team point values could be beneficial for this tho, especially if bumping falls up to 7
 
Originally posted by Gobblin:

Originally posted by buf87:
No to 1 and 8 & 9 all as a group, Not sure about the quick tilts.

Also I don't mind the 3 points for 1st takedown.Â

This post was edited on 2/24 11:53 AM by buf87
Click to expand...

My fear with the first TD being worth 3 is that guys would tighten up even more in fear of giving up that TD... Or if one guy comes out guns blazing and is clearly the aggressor only to give up some cheap TD to a defensive scrambler.

A takedown is a takedown, IMHO.

Eliminating riding time is an absolute must and the push out is close to it too... Again, IMHO.

They should replace #5 with... "Wrestlers start from neutral to begin each period".

Posted from Rivals Mobile
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And then how do you explain that to people? "Well the first takedown is worth three points and only if it's in the first period, but after that it's two points."

I don't like anything that complicates rules when you have to explain it to someone.
 
Alternative to #10: How about "riding time will only be accumulated after a takedown or reversal". Eliminates the stall ride from the top position to start a period. (My guess is Missouri might object. ;)
 
I don't like the forfeit ideas. Even though coaches sometimes intentionally holds somebody out, I think it is rare. If a team is traveling for a double dual out east, budgets keep coaches from bring many if any extras and injuries and sickness happens. A home team has the advantage to go grab somebody else, but visiting team does not have that luxury.
 
Originally posted by artradley:
My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one countEliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.Push-out, but not from a scramble situationAllow MMA-type gear instead of singletsHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams.First takedown in the first period is worth three pointsFalls are worth 7 pointsMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back pointsWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso

What say you?

I'm a "yes" on 1,2,4,5,8,9,11
Click to expand...
#3
 
They better not get rid of singlets. Flo has had some events where the guys wear shorts and a shirt.......NO WAY!

I like the way back points are scored currently.

Push out - you bet, why not.

Colors for away or home? Good lord, how dumb are fans. There's only 2 fricking kids to watch. DUMB

Majors/techs need to stay where they are. Easier ways to get bonus points will decrease scoring.

Riding time only if you get back? Oohhh I like this. I can't stand leg riders so YES YES YES.

#11 I'd have to think about that some. It would definitely take some of the current funk defense away.
 
"Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets."
Imagine MMA shorts combined with moldy wrestling shoes and head gear. How about stripped knee socks too? That'd be it for D-1 wrestling.
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I hate the first TD is worth 3 points. The consequence will be even worse stalling than we see now.

This post was edited on 2/24 4:21 PM by hawkeyesports92
 
Seeing this list of considerations really ticks me off!!! The only thing I care about, and the thing we complain most about is RT...and eliminating it completely is not even listed! Get rid of RT in OT as well. Just start in neutral and compete until someone scores. I know I'm a broken record on this topic, but too many changes and too many complications will only create unintended consequences. Start with RT and continue to evaluate each year for other considerations.

EDIT - Ok, I admit I got caught up in the emotion of the NCAA's idiocy. I also like #4 for 2 reason: 1) this is the direction that international competition is going towards, and 2) after coaching high school this season I understand that it's a limitation for entry to some young men.


This post was edited on 2/24 4:28 PM by AFHawk86
 
I don't understand why we do not change to the freestyle rules all together. It would help us train/prepare for international competition and the rules are now much better than before.

In addition, I don't see why people dig their heels in on the singlet issue. The uniform does not make the sport and anything we can do to make it more appealing to watch and/or attract participants we should consider. We know kids don't like them and people unfamiliar with the sport think it is "weird"..make the switch.

BTW, these comments come from a 45 yr old ex-college wrestler and coach who loves the tradition but isn't willing to lose the entire sport over how we used to do it...even though it is hard, change is important!
 
After further thought, a 6 point major decision could create some interesting situations. For example, someone with a 3 point lead in the third period would have incentive to go after the major instead of just block off and coast to a win. This could lead to more entertaining 3rd periods in this situation as both guys have something to wrestle for.
 
Originally posted by andegre:
Originally posted by andegre:
You can't win on RT without a takedown (or reversal)
Click to expand...
Woops, i guess Menace Sockeyes already had this idea.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
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This, imo, should be obvious, but if not this, need backs for RT.

I really don't know why people just want to get rid of riding time, it is a large part of collegiate wrestling. A lot of work and strategy takes place, as long as stalling is properly called, it shouldn't be an issue.

Adding a requirement of TD or backpoints would solve any problem.

Getting rid of it entirely seems ridiculous and over-reactionary. Sure I loved watching Metcalf wrestle, but his style of attack isn't the only style.
 
Originally posted by thom67:
If first take down was worth 3 pts, Iowa would be in trouble!
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I really don't get this suggestion. Sure, in its simplicity the idea is to force action early...but early action isn't any better than late action, action is action. A takedown and control are the basis of wrestling, time should not become a factor, as it isn't more important to get a takedown (intrinsically) in the first period as the second of third. Also, there is no more "skill" in getting a first period takedown than at any other time, so why reward it?

Plus, it might simply have the opposite result of that sought: it might encourage more defense, fighting off that extra point.
 
Originally posted by Menace Sockeyes:

Alternative to #10: How about "riding time will only be accumulated after a takedown or reversal". Eliminates the stall ride from the top position to start a period. (My guess is Missouri might object. ;)
Click to expand...
Expand on this. Wrestler starts on top, but doesn't actually gain RT? What is the usefulness of this? Won't that, largely, just become an automatic point for the bottom guy?

Imo, RT should absolutely start ticking, the wrestler does not have to choose down. As I say above, requiring backpoints for RT to decide a match might be an improvement, although I'd probably allow RT to tie a match (just not win) without backs.
 
Originally posted by artradley:
My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:



1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count-Great
Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.-Good if #1
Push-out, but not from a scramble situation-Like pushout. Don't like refs having judgment as to what is a scramble. All or nothing to avoid issues.
Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets-No. Tradition is good. This is not an issue that needs changing.
Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams.-Has this been an issue somewhere? Don't like.
First takedown in the first period is worth three points-Like
Falls are worth 7 points-Good as long as FF/Defaults are still 6.
Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8-Dont care. Fine
Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15-See above.
Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points-If you have to have riding time then fine.
When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso-Not needed

What say you?

I'm a "yes" on 1,2,4,5,8,9,11
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by theIowaHawk:

Originally posted by thom67:
If first take down was worth 3 pts, Iowa would be in trouble!
Click to expand...
I really don't get this suggestion. Sure, in its simplicity the idea is to force action early...but early action isn't any better than late action, action is action. A takedown and control are the basis of wrestling, time should not become a factor, as it isn't more important to get a takedown (intrinsically) in the first period as the second of third. Also, there is no more "skill" in getting a first period takedown than at any other time, so why reward it?

Plus, it might simply have the opposite result of that sought: it might encourage more defense, fighting off that extra point.
Click to expand...
Why not make the LAST TD worth 3 points.

That would make them EACH continue to get that LAST TD.

In a match like Hoody vs. Sorensen with NO TD, that 3rd period could have some wide open offensive action trying to get a 3 point move from your feet.

Any match going into the 3rd tied or very close in score could see more wide open action from both wrestlers.
 
How about no escape point if the top wrester intentionally releases from a controlling position? I always thought 2:1 for the takedown game was insufficient reward. A ratio of 2-0 would serve to motivate more action on the feet. Might also eliminate boring stall rides to some degree.
 
Originally posted by artradley:
My son got the NCAA annual survey today, here are some rule change considerations that they included for feedback:

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count - I could go for this, if #2Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. - I could see this, if #1 is a goPush-out, but not from a scramble situation - All or nothing. Like someone else said, take judgement out of it for the referees. I like itAllow MMA-type gear instead of singlets - I like the tradition, but could do without it. Has to be something tight though to avoid grabbing and accidental wrapping it - again take the judgement of intentional vs. accidental from the refsHome team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. - who caresFirst takedown in the first period is worth three points - no. However, make ALL takedowns worth 3 vs. 1 for escape - make it worth the effortFalls are worth 7 points - Sure, forfeits tooMajor Decision at 6 points instead of 8 - this is a tough one…see the reason, but don't like rewarding one big move when a guy gets caught. Someone tries a move and accidentally gets stuck to their back for a 5 point move…you've pretty much got a major alreadyTech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 - How about a compromise and move it down to 12?Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points - about time…hate the stalling rides. I like the ideas above about attaching it to back points or only after an attackWhen defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso - more clarification…I love the scrambles…don't want to see them eliminated

I'd add one for dual events and scoring a winner…..stick a criteria in for a tied dual...team with least stall points or least stall warnings…award the aggressive team as a whole. I'd say this goes in front of first takedown…don't decide the winner on one weight class that isn't always the same…decide it on the entire team like the rest of the criteria
Click to expand...
 
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